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I would like to load a 444 Marlin with a reduced load to 44 magnum velocity. I am doing this for my 10 year old son. In Mississippi our whitetail deer primitive weapons season allows the use of the single shot Handi Rifle (must be 38 caliber or bigger). I can purchase him a rifle in 444 and shoot it with reduced loads for now and then in a couple of years move him up to a regular load on the 444.
I have just started reloading so please answer these questions:
1. Will I encounter any problems with reducing a 444 to 44 mag velocities?
2. Please recommend a load for this purpose.

Thank you for your help.

Haven't done it, but I would go with a 75% of max load of H-4895 and the 240-gr JSP bullets like Remington or Hornady XTP, because its pressure and velocity scales linearly down to about 65%, and it is safe to reduce it that far. Call Hogdgon and ask them.

I have used reduced loads like this for the .308 (130 and 150-gr), and 7mm-08 (120-gr BT). They work great. I posted some here a few years ago and others have tried them.

Get the Lyman 47 manual and look up the Unique/cast bullet loads on the 444 page. Easy!

13 grains of Red Dot under any .429 Keith bullet would probably work. With the cast loads, you may have to slug the bore in order to buy the right cast diameter and sizing die, if you want top accuracy. But you could just go pick up a bag of 100 cast .44 bullets already lubed with gas checks and get to loading.

If I were going to use the 444 at 44 mag velocities, I would also go with 44 mag bullets.

The Hornady manual shows a load for the 444 with a 240 gr XTP at 1900 fps using 32.9 gr of IMR4198. This velocity was obtained with a 24 inch barrel.

If one then takes a look at the 44 magnum loads listed for the Ruger carbine with 18 inch barrel, one can see that the 44 mag tops out at 1800 fps with the same bullet.

It would appear to me that the 444 minimum listed loads in the Hornady manual are very comparable to maximum loads in the 44 mag with similar barrel lengths.




I shoot a Marlin 1894 lever action chambered for 41 mag. Reloads which deliver 1450 fps with a 210 gr Hornady XTP in my 7 1/2 inch SBH turn out to shoot at 1900 fps from the carbine. And they are not pleasant on the shoulder. The felt recoil from the 41 mag carbine is very similar to 150 gr loads in an old 30-06 I used to shoot with a steel butt plate.

I would definitely put a premium recoil pad on that 444 for the ten year old. And then I would probably be looking for loads even lighter than the minimums from the manual which I listed earlier.

Reduced loads,in my opinion,ain't a very good idea...
You want 44Mag velocities,Buy a 44Mag lever gun....

Well, as a person who has owned a 444 since 1981, I can tell you, that there is no problem downloading it to 44 Rem Mag specs...

Sorry to disagree with Bart above, but based on lack of aerodynamics of the 44 caliber flat nose bullets, you can reduce velocity and not loose very much point blank range while reducing recoil 50% or better...

If you use 44 Rem Mag load data, for a 44 Rem Mag rifle... in a 444 case... you will end up with the same velocity... after all it is just a stretched 44 Rem Mag case anyway, and it is straight walled...

EG, with a 240 grain XTP.. comparing an MV of 2300 fps, to an MV of 1700 fps, compare the trajectories out of a reload manual, and see how little Point blank range you give up.. the numbers will surprise you.. and yet it is easily still a 125 to 150 yd load...

My favorite slug is the 300 grain XTP Hornady.. in fact, XTPs is all I use in my 444...

you also will not need mag primers with the longer case... and don't mess with the powders that are even in the 4198, RL 7 range... they are requiring a compressed load...

There are a ton of powders that work well in the 44 Mag, that work well in the 444...

however, don't think that because the 444 case is longer, you can put in more of the fast powders... the longer case length makes no difference.. you will find yourself in trouble...

but use straight 44 Mag data for a 444 and you are looking just fine!

you can also shoot a straight 44 Mag case in a Marlin lever action, so it will work just fine in a New England Handirifle..

cheers
seafire

Why not use the cartridge's versatility? I have a 450 Marlin and I load it from 45 colt (plinking) to a "weak" 458 mag. Why not?

Makes a great load for birds in the "pot" while elk hunting.

I think a .44 Magnum carbine is too much recoil for a 10-year-old, and you don't need it.

I would look for a good used .357 carbine. I found a nice Rossi 1892 for $250 last week. The .38s and .357s are cheap to shoot and have much less recoil. At the ranges he needs to be shooting, vanilla 158-gr FN JSP .357s are stone killers.

When I was first married, by brother-in-law was 9, and very big for his age. He got his first deer with a Rossi .357, and he still has it, and his son will be using it soon.

I realize that you are trying to work the laws to wiggle him into a "primitive weapon" hunt, but I would just borrow a muzzle loader, or buy a used one, use it, and sell it later to fund a better one or that .357 levergun, which he will get a lot more use out of during the regular Mississippi rifle season.

I'd venture to say that there have been more than a few unexplained failures with reduced loads...It's just not something that I would do...You want 44Mag velocities,shoot a 44Mag....
If recoil is a problem...Get a Red Rider...

I am going with the 44 mag loads. I have purchased the rifle and will be shooting it in July. I am tied up coaching his baseball team until the end of June. My buddy and I just purchased compound bows for our sons. We are starting them out right.

I was wondering about this very thing. I looked at the cartridge dimensions in the manual and it showed the 44 mag to be slightly smaller diameter near the base of the cartridge than is the 444.

I did not know if the difference would be enough to leave the 44 mag unsupported during firing.

If 44 mags, or even possibly 44 specials will function properly in the 444 chambering, then the answer to reduced recoil in the 444 rifle becomes very obvious.



Question about your 44's in the 444 Marlin: any feed issues?

My 1894 in 41 mag is at the 'smith for the third time for feed issues. I have less than a couple hundred rounds through the rifle. My 'smith says my issues arise from slightly shorter than max COAL. He advises that my rounds must be loaded to SAAMI max length?

The length is not an issue. I can load the rounds to any length specified. I am just curious if longer rounds are really going to help.

"Question about your 44's in the 444 Marlin: any feed issues?"

I haven't had any.. although I haven't used them very often...

I usually just reload the 444 case to the specs of the 44 Rem Mag, and at times to the specs of the 44/40 or the 44 Special...using that load dats... with the powders I know will work fine...

I have owned a 44 Mag Marlin lever action... It threw the rounds all over the place in my opinion... sent it to Marlin and they said it was well within specs to their opinion...so I traded it off to someone who wanted one real bad, and I wanted the 7 x 57 Ruger that he had just purchased and didn't like..

So I tried the Rem Mag data in the 444 case and got the same results and stellar accuracy...

As far as bullet performance, mentioned above... we are using Bullets meant to be shot at 44 Mag velocities and are being shot at those velocities... so there is no issue about will they work...Saying a downloaded 444 won't work on game, is like calling a 44 Rem Mag handgun inadequate for deer... and millions of handgun hunters have proven that statement wrong... besides, I own a Red Rider, that I can always use for backup...

Idaho... to cut down on the recoil on your 41 Mag, try using powders like Unique or some of the Blue/Green/Red Dot family.. or also 700X, 800X... SR 4756 or SR 7625....Those loads with those powders should recoil less, using less powder...

I download a lot of bolt action rifle calibers.. and the types of powders used can reduce recoil dramatically.....and also reduced loads in bolt actions can actually be more lethal and penetrate more than standard full throttle loads... it is all about proper bullet selection....

Case in point.. at below 2400 fps ( 300 Savage velocities) a Ballastic Tip, will out penetrate a similar weight in a Partition....a lot of people don't know that, but they should try testing it... I did, and that is how I found out..Ballistic Tips will actually open up quite well and penetrate quite well down to about 1400 fps MV with a 100 yd point of impact on your target...

In a 7 x 57, with a 175 grain corelokt, when it had an MV of 2650 fps... at 50 yrds it had a penetration of 14 inches into some wood media...

Same bullet with an MV of 1800 fps, penetrated thru the 18 inches of the same wood media, and kept on going....

Testing reduced loads into different types of media really opened my eyes a lot... and heavy bullets as high velocity can cut thru a deer without ever opening up.. it passed thru the deer before the bullet had a chance to do its job...

hunters need to study bullet design and velocity's effect on game a little more closely... a big magnum, with a heavy bullet isn't always the best answer, depending on the size of game...

Loading the 444 with a 200 to 300 grain XTP, with an MV of 1000 fps, is going to have such a low recoil, you will be highly surprised... yet that big bullet, at those handgun velocities are easily going to take down a pretty darn large deer...

It isn't a 300 yd load, it is a 100 yd load.... but since 90% of all deer fall within a 100 yds or less... it is more than plenty for the job.. even in the hands of a young shooter...

Those who question it, have never had any real experience hands on with it!

I use to think a 300 Win Mag with a 200 grain Bullet and I could hunt anything on the continent... well after it passed right thru a couple of whitetails.. and they took off.. yet I knew the shot placements were good, based on the blood and fur all over the snow where they were hit.... Sierra explained to me that the bullets passed thru before they could open up.. and recommended me to use a lighter bullet and a slower MV...this happened on some well over 200 lb plus Minnesota whitetails... My main deer rifle choice is either a 260 Rem, or a 7 x 57 Mauser...and occasionally a 6mm Rem or a 243....all have worked quite well...

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Check out the loads for the 444 Marlin.

These may not be reduced enough. I like 35.0 grains of IMR 4227 under the 240 grain XTP and 31.0 grains of the same powder under the 300 grain XTP.Neither load is max and can be reduced. I found full loads with 4198 to be a bit too fast for really good bullet performance and the pistol designed bullets. I figure I am getting 1900 fps with the 240 and just under 1600 fps with the 300. This said it would take a pretty tough ten year old to enjoy shooting these loads.

I load and shoot quite a few "41 special" loads with full length brass in my Blackhawk as well as the carbine. I load the 210 gr Berry's plated 41 cal bullet to 800 or 900 fps with Blue Dot, Unique, and soon Universal Clays.

They are very comfortable to shoot in the carbine. And I am sure that 44 special or equivalent loads would be very comfortable to shoot in a 444 H & R.

I would make the point that a magnum velocity handgun round (or equivalent)in 41, 44, or 45 cal can still sting a young shooter, even if it is fired in a rifle.

Idaho SS;

I am involved with Scouting, and I have had boys in the 11 to 14 age range shooting my 444 with loads going in the 1000 to 1200 fps range... and most of the shooters prefer it over the 30/30 loaded to the same velocities with Cowboy Loads...

The general Idea is that our post starter can get some decent loads that will be effective in the field and start his younger out of them...

My son had to work up being able to handle recoil.. yet my cousin's son, shot his first deer at 5 yrs old, with a full power loaded 30/06 with 180 grain factory loads... but he is a roughneck kid, where my son in more the bookworm type...

Trevor shot the 06 with the stock forearm resting on a fence cross bar... his dad says the more it kicks, the more he loves it... at 8 he was shooting dad's 300 Weatherby!!!

We all have different tolerances.. even kids...

Amen to that.

I have told this story before, but it is applicable. My son had a few hundred dollars coming from the sale of a calf he had raised and he wanted to buy a new rifle.

One day we found the
Winchester push feed model 70 black shadow package on sale at Walmart for $300, and I agreed it would be a great choice for him.

But the little mutt would not have an 06, cause "That's what Dad's got, and I want something different" Same story with the 270 because my buddy had one. My son wanted a 7RM, but they did not have one, they did have a 300 win mag.

"Dad, can you load that so I can shoot it till I get a bit bigger?" He was probably about five feet tall then and a bit shy of 100 lbs.

I told him "Absolutely!"

We took the 300 home, I ordered brass and dies from Midway, and when they got here I loaded up a hundred rounds with 125 gr Speer TNT's at 2200 fps.

What a sweet shooting load! He was having a ball, shooting a few rounds each afternoon and cleaning the bore as he gave it a proper break in.

A few rounds of empty brass started building up, so I used a bit of it to load up some maximum velocity 165's, just so I could see what the rifle was really capable of.

Well, a few weeks later I was at the bench doing some load development for a friends Sako in 7RM. I had a few extra rifles there to work with while waiting for the Sako to cool.

My son came along and asked if I had anything he could shoot.

"Sure, the heavy barrel Savage 112 single shot in 22-250 is ready to go. There is the ammo."

He proceeded to shoot five into about 3 1/2 inches. He took a good look through the scope and asked me "What the heck is wrong with this rifle?

"There is nothing wrong with the rifle. Here is a five shot 7/8 inch group I just shot. Try that again and let's see what is going on."

I let him shoot two more rounds and then picked up the rifle and cycled the bolt. "Here try this one I had in my pocket."

Actually I had closed the bolt on an empty chamber.

He yanked the trigger and the muzzle jumped about two inches.

I said "Ah I thought so! You have been shooting the hot loads in your 300 when I was not looking haven't you?"

"Well yeah, I have only shot a couple boxes of them. They don't hurt any."

I replied: "They don't huh! Try telling that to that target over there."

We pretty much got the flinch under control with the use of the 22 LR's and the 22-250. My son is now 25 years old, and over six feet tall. His 300 has been sold and he is quite happy to be shooting a 77 mk II in 260 Rem.

He will occasionally put a few rounds through the 264, but he won't touch the Ruger #1 in 7 mm STW.

thanks for all of the info