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Originally Posted by MAC
Originally Posted by copperking81
Originally Posted by MAC
There were very few generals in that time that were better at fighting a defensive campaign than Lee. However wars are not won on defense, they are won on offense. Grant was an offensive genius,he knew he had to keep constant pressure on Lee and keep advancing no matter how bad the casualties were. Doing this wore Lee down, didn't allow him to resupply, regroup or rest..


No. Just no. That's akin to saying Georgy Zhukov was a genius.

Not quite but nice try. Here's the historical fact: Until Grant took over it was common practice for the opposing armies to disengage at the end of a battle and go lay up to lick their wounds, resupply and regroup. This allowed Lee time to control when and where the next engagement would be and allow him to get set before the Union forces could. Grant said the hell with that and kept constant pressure on Lee to put Lee off balance. Grant knew they would take casualties but he knew by shortening the war he would be saving lives in the long run. So he never gave Lee the respite he was used to. This immediately made Lee fight Grant's war and not his war. Once Grant put the pressure on and didn't let up, Lee was finished.

As I noted, invest a little time are read Grant's memoirs to see how the man thought. It's too bad that Lee never penned his memoirs. Some of his letters and interviews have been published after his death but he never wrote actual memoirs.


Hmm... can't say I've ever met someone that cited pioneering the strategy of unrelenting frontal assaults, as genius. Grant was aggressive, as was Zhukov in the exact same way.

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General Eisenhower's farm is part of the Gettysburg national park. It is available for tour through the NPS via bus from the museum. Really a nice tour. It is kinda behind Pickets charge below Longstreet observation tower. He even had Khruschev visit him there, and take a tour of the battlefield. JFK toured the battlefield too.
General Eisenhower had an office on the second floor of the post office in downtown Gettysburg.

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Clearly, a man as great as Ike did not consider Robert E. Lee a traitor for his role in the Civil War. Non of these current, Obama appointed generals are near the man Ike was. I consider every man who fought for the south a hero.

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Originally Posted by moosemike
Its generally accepted that Lee's incursion into Maryland was a play to garner the the support of the Southern loyalists there and gain a lot of new recruits. Had he won at Antietam he felt he would've been seen as a liberator freeing MD from Yankee oppression and that was supposed to result in waves of goodwill from the locals. As it was he dropped his battle plans and ended up leaving the battlefield non victorious. I believe the war was totally winnable right up to the third day at Gettysburg. The North was becoming war weary.


Had Lee won at Gettysburg it is interesting to speculate his next move.

The Pennsylvania capital at Harrisburg?

Washington DC?

The north was war weary. The twin victories at Gettysburg and Vicksburg reinvigorated the North, as would the fall of Atlanta in 1864.


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Originally Posted by copperking81
Originally Posted by MAC
Originally Posted by copperking81
Originally Posted by MAC
There were very few generals in that time that were better at fighting a defensive campaign than Lee. However wars are not won on defense, they are won on offense. Grant was an offensive genius,he knew he had to keep constant pressure on Lee and keep advancing no matter how bad the casualties were. Doing this wore Lee down, didn't allow him to resupply, regroup or rest..


No. Just no. That's akin to saying Georgy Zhukov was a genius.

Not quite but nice try. Here's the historical fact: Until Grant took over it was common practice for the opposing armies to disengage at the end of a battle and go lay up to lick their wounds, resupply and regroup. This allowed Lee time to control when and where the next engagement would be and allow him to get set before the Union forces could. Grant said the hell with that and kept constant pressure on Lee to put Lee off balance. Grant knew they would take casualties but he knew by shortening the war he would be saving lives in the long run. So he never gave Lee the respite he was used to. This immediately made Lee fight Grant's war and not his war. Once Grant put the pressure on and didn't let up, Lee was finished.

As I noted, invest a little time are read Grant's memoirs to see how the man thought. It's too bad that Lee never penned his memoirs. Some of his letters and interviews have been published after his death but he never wrote actual memoirs.


Hmm... can't say I've ever met someone that cited pioneering the strategy of unrelenting frontal assaults, as genius. Grant was aggressive, as was Zhukov in the exact same way.



Grant's genius was strategic, not tactical.

With superior numbers of troops (and more importantly the ability to replace casualties, which the South could not) and weapons the end result was the same.


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Originally Posted by slowmover12
Clearly, a man as great as Ike did not consider Robert E. Lee a traitor for his role in the Civil War.


That was my point in posting the clip......not really to go down the other rabbit holes of the war. Ike wasn't from the South either......but considered the greatest Americans to be "Washington, Franklin, Lincoln, and Lee".

He probably thought that way because he understood Lee's role in patching the country back together and what a disaster it could have been had his attitude been to resist to the last man. That may not be the entire reason there are so many statues of Lee around but its why there needs to be.


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I think Ike had a fascination with Gettysburg very similar to quite a few of us. He hosted tours by Monty, Zhukov, and I believe Churchill, probably several others that I’m not aware of.
All agreed that Lee should have listened to Pete and went around the left of Round Top.
I had a fascination with Lee when I was young, but as I matured and read more of his campaigns, I formed the opinion that while he was a great strategist, his tenacity cost the South men and casualties that they ultimately couldn’t afford.
Joe Johnston was more willing to trade off territory for lives, (Jeff Davis hated this) much like Washington in the Revolution. Considering the disparity of resources, possibly a better strategy.
I hesitate to call Grant a genius, but study of his campaigns shows he had far better grasp of strategy and tactics than most generals on either side. He also understood the disparity of resources, and used that to shorten and end the war.
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"Had Lee won at Gettysburg it is interesting to speculate his next move.

The Pennsylvania capital at Harrisburg?"

Many historians agree that Lee's initial focus in invading PA, was on capturing Harrisburg and thereby increasing the pressure on the Union to end the war and let the CSA stand?

He had various regiments/brigades probing about close to Harrisburg, before he "bumped into" Union forces near Gettysburg and summoned them all back to his side.They had already "taken" a few sizable towns like Carlisle, Mechanicsburg, etc, to the west of Harrisburg, prior to the Gettysburg tussle..


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