Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Parts is Parts?

We've sold hundreds at our store, none to me.

It should................that's their high end BCG & it sells for $300.

Geiselle Reliability BCG

Their more mundane version is plain jane, manganese phosphated & goes for $140.

Haven't used either version but most Geiselle stuff works as advertised, though most is on the very expensive side.

MM

MM,

If figure that Geissele BCG's almost good enough for you.

Yeah, ya got me cold.............................I'll admit to using several of their triggers, a couple of rails (before they became un-obtainium) & some charging handles, which I like better than any others.

As I said earlier, their stuff pretty well works as advertised.

As for BCG's, I really prefer the ones from Young Manufacturing as my 1st choice, especially the HMB bolts, but their stuff has also become un-obtainium over the last several months..................I suppose for the same reasons as Geiselle, other volume contracts on various parts, taking away production of their mainstream consumer items.

The Young HMB bolts have a blind hole such that the cam pin doesn't go completely through, thus greatly strengthening the bolt in it's weakest area.

MM

I dont know, but it took a loooooong time for me to finally buy an AR. My friends told me id love them because i like to tinker with my rifles. When i decided i was going to get one, i told them i was going to buy a Noveske because they are a top tier manufacturer and built here in Oregon. I hate to sound like a snob, but the thought of owning a PSA, Aero, Anderson, Delton, and even DPMS is very unappealing to me. In my mind, they just sound cheap. In all honesty, they are probably every bit as good as anything else if you put a good BCG and barrel on them. I also had a chance to try the cheap handguard and $20 muzzle brake lastnight after work. Both worked flawlessly. Except the brake is loud as hell. Recoil was reduced to about 223 levels from my 6.5cm. Accuracy was excellent, but it had a POI shift. That tells me the brake is slightly off centerline of the axis of the bore. Ill likely pull it off, but i like the looks of it far better than the factory cheap azzed looking thread protector. You'd think the Performance center would have put something nicer on it. Now for accuracy, it doesn't appear that switching the handguard on my Northtech Defense affected accuracy. It was shooting sub moa 10 shot groups and that was even with a switch to CCI41 primers. The performance center 6.5cm shot one .85moa 10 shot group and one 1.2 moa 10 shot group on a black rifle challenge thread target. So the 2 groups averaged close to moa. Im pretty happy with that rifle as a whole, but i cant imagine shooting it without the ear plugs stuffed in real tight. The concussion wasn't too bad for me, the shooter, but it did blow my cabelas hat off the bench next to me. Because of that, id never shoot that rifle in competition or when people are shooting next to me. It will be better to just pull the brake off. I just ordered a linear comp for it. So that will get rid of all the muzzle blast directed out the side, but recoil will be stiffer. Not a big deal since the AR10 6.5cm is really mild anyway. This is a good thread. Im wondering what other parts guys use succesfully, that are inexpensive vs. the high dollar big name guys' parts? Triggers, LPK'S, buffers, gas blocks, handguards, sights. Maybe that question should be asked on the other thread?

People would probably be surprised to learn that a single manufacturer fabricates the bolts, and many other parts, for multiple suppliers of AR-15s.

That's why the "parts is parts" opinion exists.

https://customar15.net/ar-15-faq/bolt-carrier-group-get/

While the industry has changed and expanded over the years and many companies are finishing receivers, making hand guards and turning barrels, there are still only a handful of companies actually producing bolt carrier groups.

This question comes up often. Here’s the short answer. Carpenter Technologies 158 alloy steel was selected as the ‘Mil Spec’ when the AR-15, chambered for the lower pressure .223 Remington round was upgraded to the higher pressure 5.56 NATO. This was many years ago and many things change in metallurgy as new testing, procedures and innovations come out. 9310 is a AISI grade of tool steel that is approximately 7% stronger than Carpenter 158 steel when heat treated and processed correctly. The companies we use have been in the business long enough to have seen both in action, and most are moving to strictly 9310, or using 9310 as a default unless specified.

Our thought on this – It’s much more important who made the bolt than the material used. Even if a new company called us and offered us BCG’s at $10 each, we would still stick with our contract shops we have dealt with for years. These are companies that produce BCG’s for the DOD as well as companies like Bushmaster, Stag, Armalite, Remington, LaRue, and many more. Rest assured when you buy a BCG from us, we will stand behind it 100% and you will simply be getting the best.

Basically, unless you give up large dollars for a "boutique" grade AR, you're buying an assembled conglomeration of parts from a small handful of various manufacturers.

The geegaws may be different. But the bones are the same.

ARs are modular firearms. The people who put the name brand on them are just the assemblers of parts that are purchased.

I got a Midwest Industries BCG.....worth a chit or not?

None of these companies are the tip tier AR companies that we've been talking about.

Maybe not. But people have been extolling the virtues of 9310 steel as if it's only a top tier bolt material. And the article states that it's become the default steel for even rack grade AR bolts.

I worked as a toolmaker my whole life. All the magic with steel was ironed out a long time ago. Unless you get into something really exotic, all tool steels are priced pretty much the same and the heat treating process for all of them involves about the same level of complexity.

Also, with the advent of CNC machining it's a fairly straight forward process to make multiple objects that are dimensionally identical while holding very close tolerances.

"Parts is parts". But there's always going to be people who respond to hype.

There's a huge amount of hype in the AR-15 market. They're modular,..the firearm equivalent of a lego set.

9310 is a far more widely used material in the metal industry than is C-158, & IF, & that's a REALLY big IF, it's heat treated correctly, it may be marginally better for an AR bolt than C-158..................but it is not mil-spec for a bolt, only C-158 is.

The issue is that since 9310 is much more readily available, basically a commodity, and not all of it is HT'd by the same HT'er with the same competency levels, there's much more variability in the stock than there is in the relatively lower volume, smaller supply based, C-158, which is more tightly controlled, but also more expensive.

And that is the reason to only buy bolts from proven & known reliable suppliers...............because they are only buying stock (or bolts) from known consistent & high quality steel suppliers.

Why do you think that companies like Anderson, Radical Firearms & Bear Creek products have a higher incidence of failure than do companies like BCM, Daniel Defense, Toolcraft, Rubber City Armory, etc., do?..................in big part, it's due to the consistency & quality of the steel.

And I ain't gonna buy jack-schitt from a company like Integrity Arms & Survival w/o a really, really good idea of who is making their parts. There's just too many other reliable options.

JMHO, YMMV

MM

“ That's why the "parts is parts" opinion exists.”

The “parts is parts” opinion exists because people don’t shoot enough.

“......companies like BCM, Daniel Defense, Toolcraft, Rubber City Armory, etc., do?..................in big part, it's due to the consistency & quality of the steel.”

While I mostly agree/don’t have any questions about your post, you kinda lost me with Rubber City. AFAIK (and, at least for me), they’re not in a ‘top tier’ conversation at all. JP is. Young probably is, but some debate that. I’m not saying I’m some bolt expert, but materials and specs just are. I’m (personally) not saying RCA isn’t good, I just don’t know that they’re proven ‘top tier’....then again, I don’t think Noveske or Colt are what they used to be, either.

RCA is a prime supplier not a re-marketer & makes Noveske's bolts & is one of the best black nitriding sources around & have a proprietary version...........they do lots of contract work for others like LMT; they are very transparent with what they do & make a full & complete line of BCG's at moderate pricing levels to very expensive for Titanium.

JP is fine, & make good products, but their guns are mostly for play & but get a lot of hype & are on the extreme high end, cost wise, for nothing you can't get elsewhere..............they also use Wilson barrel blanks, same as WOA. Also, they promote cryogeniclly treated barrels as a plus, but all that I know is that at best, it's never really been proven to be magic, so I draw the line at swallowing that much BS.

A good barrel from Craddock or CLE on any of their major blanks will equal any JP barrel for performance.

JMHO, YMMV

MM

Carpenter C-158 and 9130 are virtually the same steel. 9130 is the generic AISI designation and C-158 is Carpenter's name for their version of it. AISI specifies a range of content for all the significant alloys, and Carpenter may hold theirs to a little closer percentages in some cases, but it's essentially the same steel. It's the same with all the alloy steels, you can, for example, buy Carpenter's Vega, an air hardening tool steel, or you can buy generic A-6. We like to think we get a more consistent product with the name-brand steels...probably we do. Does it significantly affect machinability or final performance? Who knows?

MM, you hit on some great points, but some of these guys may not know metallurgical differences between different materials. You are correct about the heat treating and carpenter 158 vs 9310. 158 is mil spec, that is good and generally when manufactures say its c158, you can bet its good. Some say 9310 is better, but most times its heat treated all the way through, and C158 is surface hardened. In some instances surface hardening is better because it offers better impact resistance, where 9310 may be more brittle (depending on how and who heat treated it). Now, keep in mind, we are just talking about the bolt. The carrier is slightly different, as it doesnt need to be made from 9310 to be an excellent bolt carrier group (BCG). 8620 (as in the material used in the carrier i shared earlier) is a great material for use in a carrier. Surf the web or talk to anyone, and youll be hard pressed to find anyone that has ever had an 8620 carrier fail. Now, going back to bolts (The actual bolt itself), 8620 is less than mil spec rated and there have been failures associated with using it for the bolt itself. C158 is the only way to fly there. A while back PSA put out a run of 8620 bolts. Guys should check to make sure what they have in their ars. If you know you have a bolt that is 8620, keep an eye on it. Inspect it good after every cleaning, or just toss it and put a C158 in your carrier. That will add piece of mind and you'll have a far better BCG.

What he said. It wears me out to see a “I finally got an AR” post, followed two weeks later by “Y’all just listen up....”

Just like the "anyone can build an AR" threads...until they can't.

"Just listen up" m fer's....

Sorry, my dyslexia took over in the above post... I meant to type 9310, not 9130.