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Joined: Jan 2016
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 95,722 Likes: 2 |
We should never have come off the gold standard but since we have it is impossible to go back.
Mostly because there's not enough gold on planet Earth to equal the value of our debts. This makes no sense to me..... how about if gold was $1,000,000 an ounce? Exactly. I think some have figured about $80,000 an ounce would cover it. Iirc.
Last edited by jaguartx; 07/18/20.
Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
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Joined: Aug 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824 |
We should never have come off the gold standard but since we have it is impossible to go back.
Mostly because there's not enough gold on planet Earth to equal the value of our debts. This makes no sense to me..... how about if gold was $1,000,000 an ounce? Exactly. I think some have figured about $80,000 an ounce would cover it. Iirc. And if silver would return to it's historic value of 16 to 1 ratio with gold, metals could replace fiat as real money
Originally Posted by Judman PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 95,722 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 95,722 Likes: 2 |
Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997 |
A big part of the Depression was that there was no money in circulation. I'm not enough an economist to know the whys of it but the common person couldn't lay his hands on any cash. My grandparents lost a farm because of it. Their mortgage was $200/yr. They had good crops in the barn but couldn't sell them for cash, only barter. Nobody had any cash to buy the stuff. They couldn't come up with the $200 and lost it. Folks had cash, but were reluctant to spend it. The proof of this is that records from that time period show high rates of savings by Americans. This can be caused by a high rate of deflation, such that people see prices falling, so put off non-essential purchases till prices fall further, closer to what they believe is the price bottom, not wanting to feel ripped off after having paid X price for a product, and a month later discovering that prices had fallen significantly since their purchase. A seller might well interpret this as a shortage of cash in the system, but that would be false. And that is the problem with deflation, and why it kills economic growth. Economies run on private debt. Deflation creates an incentive to save, but no incentive to lend or invest. With no lending there's no new businesses, no economic growth, and worse, existing businesses can not function without sufficient working capital and properly functioning capital markets.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,767 Likes: 20
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,767 Likes: 20 |
And that is the problem with deflation, and why it kills economic growth.
Economies run on private debt. Deflation creates an incentive to save, but no incentive to lend or invest. With no lending there's no new businesses, no economic growth, and worse, existing businesses can not function without sufficient working capital and properly functioning capital markets.
Transitioning to a gold standard would cause a rapid, extreme, and short lived, period of deflation (in real terms), followed by a quick return to price stability.
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824 |
A big part of the Depression was that there was no money in circulation. I'm not enough an economist to know the whys of it but the common person couldn't lay his hands on any cash. My grandparents lost a farm because of it. Their mortgage was $200/yr. They had good crops in the barn but couldn't sell them for cash, only barter. Nobody had any cash to buy the stuff. They couldn't come up with the $200 and lost it. Folks had cash, but were reluctant to spend it. The proof of this is that records from that time period show high rates of savings by Americans. This can be caused by a high rate of deflation, such that people see prices falling, so put off non-essential purchases till prices fall further, closer to what they believe is the price bottom, not wanting to feel ripped off after having paid X price for a product, and a month later discovering that prices had fallen significantly since their purchase. A seller might well interpret this as a shortage of cash in the system, but that would be false. And that is the problem with deflation, and why it kills economic growth. Economies run on private debt. Deflation creates an incentive to save, but no incentive to lend or invest. With no lending there's no new businesses, no economic growth, and worse, existing businesses can not function without sufficient working capital and properly functioning capital markets. 0% interest creates an incentive to spend and not save..... so there is that... it also forces the traditional savers into the Wall street casino.... bubble and bust, cleans out the little guy
Originally Posted by Judman PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997 |
We should never have come off the gold standard but since we have it is impossible to go back.
Mostly because there's not enough gold on planet Earth to equal the value of our debts. This makes no sense to me..... how about if gold was $1,000,000 an ounce? Exactly. I think some have figured about $80,000 an ounce would cover it. Iirc. And if silver would return to it's historic value of 16 to 1 ratio with gold, metals could replace fiat as real money It's unlikely silver will ever return to that price level, and you can thank your cell phone for that. In ages past the most significant industrial use of silver was film production. Now thanks to digital photography that demand is gone. As a result, we annually produce 4 to 5 times as much silver as we consume. They days of 16 to 1 are over.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824 |
A big part of the Depression was that there was no money in circulation. I'm not enough an economist to know the whys of it but the common person couldn't lay his hands on any cash. My grandparents lost a farm because of it. Their mortgage was $200/yr. They had good crops in the barn but couldn't sell them for cash, only barter. Nobody had any cash to buy the stuff. They couldn't come up with the $200 and lost it. Folks had cash, but were reluctant to spend it. The proof of this is that records from that time period show high rates of savings by Americans. This can be caused by a high rate of deflation, such that people see prices falling, so put off non-essential purchases till prices fall further, closer to what they believe is the price bottom, not wanting to feel ripped off after having paid X price for a product, and a month later discovering that prices had fallen significantly since their purchase. A seller might well interpret this as a shortage of cash in the system, but that would be false. And that is the problem with deflation, and why it kills economic growth. Economies run on private debt. Deflation creates an incentive to save, but no incentive to lend or invest. With no lending there's no new businesses, no economic growth, and worse, existing businesses can not function without sufficient working capital and properly functioning capital markets. With all, due respect this makes no sense.... you claim the economy runs on private debt.... yet with 0% interest rates who in their right mind will loan private money? hint.. nobody. Now the Fed is happy to lend as it cost them nothing to create the money so if they get 1% that is pure profit
Originally Posted by Judman PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,767 Likes: 20
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,767 Likes: 20 |
They days of 16 to 1 are over.
That ratio is natural only in the absence of legal tender laws supporting fiat currency. Repeal them, allow folks to contract for either payment in gold or silver instead of fiat paper, and you will see a return to that ratio quickly.
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Joined: Aug 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2009
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We should never have come off the gold standard but since we have it is impossible to go back.
Mostly because there's not enough gold on planet Earth to equal the value of our debts. This makes no sense to me..... how about if gold was $1,000,000 an ounce? Exactly. I think some have figured about $80,000 an ounce would cover it. Iirc. And if silver would return to it's historic value of 16 to 1 ratio with gold, metals could replace fiat as real money It's unlikely silver will ever return to that price level, and you can thank your cell phone for that. In ages past the most significant industrial use of silver was film production. Now thanks to digital photography that demand is gone. As a result, we annually produce 4 to 5 times as much silver as we consume. They days of 16 to 1 are over. Do you know how the 16 to 1 ratio came about? it was that value throughout history until modern "economic " theory started monkeying with things. The fact that it is consumed as a commodity means it will less available and the ratio could go to say... 10 to 1?
Originally Posted by Judman PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824 |
Solar panels consume huge amounts of silver
Originally Posted by Judman PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824 |
They days of 16 to 1 are over.
That ratio is natural only in the absence of legal tender laws supporting fiat currency. Repeal them, allow folks to contract for either payment in gold or silver instead of fiat paper, and you will see a return to that ratio quickly. Hawkeye..... you explain things much better than I do. This is correct. Precious metals are currently traded as a commodity and are subject to extreme manipulation in the commodity markets by such techniques as naked short selling etc.... The S.E.C. looks the other way because they condone such practices because metals as real money threaten their fiat Ponzi scheme
Originally Posted by Judman PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997 |
A big part of the Depression was that there was no money in circulation. I'm not enough an economist to know the whys of it but the common person couldn't lay his hands on any cash. My grandparents lost a farm because of it. Their mortgage was $200/yr. They had good crops in the barn but couldn't sell them for cash, only barter. Nobody had any cash to buy the stuff. They couldn't come up with the $200 and lost it. Folks had cash, but were reluctant to spend it. The proof of this is that records from that time period show high rates of savings by Americans. This can be caused by a high rate of deflation, such that people see prices falling, so put off non-essential purchases till prices fall further, closer to what they believe is the price bottom, not wanting to feel ripped off after having paid X price for a product, and a month later discovering that prices had fallen significantly since their purchase. A seller might well interpret this as a shortage of cash in the system, but that would be false. And that is the problem with deflation, and why it kills economic growth. Economies run on private debt. Deflation creates an incentive to save, but no incentive to lend or invest. With no lending there's no new businesses, no economic growth, and worse, existing businesses can not function without sufficient working capital and properly functioning capital markets. 0% interest creates an incentive to spend and not save..... so there is that... it also forces the traditional savers into the Wall street casino.... bubble and bust, cleans out the little guy To be clear, as a matter of policy, I'm not in favor of 0% interest rates, or the even more destructive effects of negative rates. Unfortunately, too many country's used the BS excuse provided by the followers of Keynes to overspend (think Japan) and create a debt bubble so huge they had to resort to zero rates to prevent the detonation a debt bomb. This lead to the "Yen Carry Trade", when traders would borrow money at zero rates in Japanese Yen and use it to purchase U.S Treasuries at say, 4%. This increase in demand for our Treasuries pushed yields down, and hence, gives us lower rates weather we like it or not. As some of you may recall, after his appointment as Fed Chair, Jerome Powell attempted to RAISE our interest rates to something more "sensible" for a proper growing economy. However, money markets are not local markets, but global markets, so there was no way he could do this in the global low rate environment without crashing the U.S. economy. The irony of this, is this global low rate environment's the reason all you old retired anti-globalist still get your social security checks. Interest payments on the debt have dropped from a high around 16% back to their historical 7-8% level, despite our current high debt levels, as a result of low global interest rates. This free's up cash for your social security and medicare payments that would not otherwise be available. Without further increases in our nations debt.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997 |
Solar panels consume huge amounts of silver Not enough to balance out demand with production.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997 |
We should never have come off the gold standard but since we have it is impossible to go back.
Mostly because there's not enough gold on planet Earth to equal the value of our debts. This makes no sense to me..... how about if gold was $1,000,000 an ounce? Exactly. I think some have figured about $80,000 an ounce would cover it. Iirc. And if silver would return to it's historic value of 16 to 1 ratio with gold, metals could replace fiat as real money It's unlikely silver will ever return to that price level, and you can thank your cell phone for that. In ages past the most significant industrial use of silver was film production. Now thanks to digital photography that demand is gone. As a result, we annually produce 4 to 5 times as much silver as we consume. They days of 16 to 1 are over. Do you know how the 16 to 1 ratio came about? it was that value throughout history until modern "economic " theory started monkeying with things. The fact that it is consumed as a commodity means it will less available and the ratio could go to say... 10 to 1? Re-read my post. LESS silver is being consumed as a result of the move away from the use of real film. Less demand, price goes down.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 07/18/20.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997 |
They days of 16 to 1 are over.
That ratio is natural only in the absence of legal tender laws supporting fiat currency. Repeal them, allow folks to contract for either payment in gold or silver instead of fiat paper, and you will see a return to that ratio quickly. Hawkeye..... you explain things much better than I do. This is correct. Precious metals are currently traded as a commodity and are subject to extreme manipulation in the commodity markets by such techniques as naked short selling etc.... The S.E.C. looks the other way because they condone such practices because metals as real money threaten their fiat Ponzi scheme Again, you are just factually wrong. Here's a clue. the S in SEC stands for Securities, and the C does not stand for Commodities. The SEC doesn't regulate commodities because they have no authority to do so, because they are not securities. Now trade the GLD on the NYSE, and guess what? It's a security and must register with the SEC.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824 |
A big part of the Depression was that there was no money in circulation. I'm not enough an economist to know the whys of it but the common person couldn't lay his hands on any cash. My grandparents lost a farm because of it. Their mortgage was $200/yr. They had good crops in the barn but couldn't sell them for cash, only barter. Nobody had any cash to buy the stuff. They couldn't come up with the $200 and lost it. Folks had cash, but were reluctant to spend it. The proof of this is that records from that time period show high rates of savings by Americans. This can be caused by a high rate of deflation, such that people see prices falling, so put off non-essential purchases till prices fall further, closer to what they believe is the price bottom, not wanting to feel ripped off after having paid X price for a product, and a month later discovering that prices had fallen significantly since their purchase. A seller might well interpret this as a shortage of cash in the system, but that would be false. And that is the problem with deflation, and why it kills economic growth. Economies run on private debt. Deflation creates an incentive to save, but no incentive to lend or invest. With no lending there's no new businesses, no economic growth, and worse, existing businesses can not function without sufficient working capital and properly functioning capital markets. 0% interest creates an incentive to spend and not save..... so there is that... it also forces the traditional savers into the Wall street casino.... bubble and bust, cleans out the little guy To be clear, as a matter of policy, I'm not in favor of 0% interest rates, or the even more destructive effects of negative rates. Unfortunately, too many country's used the BS excuse provided by the followers of Keynes to overspend (think Japan) and create a debt bubble so huge they had to resort to zero rates to prevent the detonation a debt bomb. This lead to the "Yen Carry Trade", when traders would borrow money at zero rates in Japanese Yen and use it to purchase U.S Treasuries at say, 4%. This increase in demand for our Treasuries pushed yields down, and hence, gives us lower rates weather we like it or not. As some of you may recall, after his appointment as Fed Chair, Jerome Powell attempted to RAISE our interest rates to something more "sensible" for a proper growing economy. However, money markets are not local markets, but global markets, so there was no way he could do this in the global low rate environment without crashing the U.S. economy. The irony of this, is this global low rate environment's the reason all you old retired anti-globalist still get your social security checks. Interest payments on the debt have dropped from a high around 16% back to their historical 7-8% level, despite our current high debt levels, as a result of low global interest rates. This free's up cash for your social security and medicare payments that would not otherwise be available. Without further increases in our nations debt. The gold standard would prevent politicians from abusing our money....
Originally Posted by Judman PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,683
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,683 |
I’m not sure what will happen 🤷🏻♂️
Most likely govt will make it illegal for private citizens to own gold again. Turn it in for 2K an Oz. & watch the price go to 10-20K an Oz.
It’s widely believed we as a govt don’t have the gold we profess to own, otherwise they’d prolly audit the stuff in the last 60 years.
But Russia & China are stockpiling
They’re apt to force us back on some form of gold standard & a basket of other currencies including theirs
Things get a bit dicey then, losing the power of the reserve currency status will make things tough here at home, much tougher.
But that’s prolly a best case scenario. If govts go something like bitcoin, that they issue, there won’t be a sale or service they can’t tax, sold your old truck for $1500, pay the sales tax mofo 🤦🏼♂️ Paint your neighbors house for him, best barter if you don’t want taxed
Human nature being what it is there will likely become some form of black market currency 🤷🏻♂️ For a while bullets & bic lighters might become the coin of the realm
But if the US govt criminalizes the possession of pm’s it’s prolly not gonna be those that make the black market currency
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,997 |
A big part of the Depression was that there was no money in circulation. I'm not enough an economist to know the whys of it but the common person couldn't lay his hands on any cash. My grandparents lost a farm because of it. Their mortgage was $200/yr. They had good crops in the barn but couldn't sell them for cash, only barter. Nobody had any cash to buy the stuff. They couldn't come up with the $200 and lost it. Folks had cash, but were reluctant to spend it. The proof of this is that records from that time period show high rates of savings by Americans. This can be caused by a high rate of deflation, such that people see prices falling, so put off non-essential purchases till prices fall further, closer to what they believe is the price bottom, not wanting to feel ripped off after having paid X price for a product, and a month later discovering that prices had fallen significantly since their purchase. A seller might well interpret this as a shortage of cash in the system, but that would be false. And that is the problem with deflation, and why it kills economic growth. Economies run on private debt. Deflation creates an incentive to save, but no incentive to lend or invest. With no lending there's no new businesses, no economic growth, and worse, existing businesses can not function without sufficient working capital and properly functioning capital markets. 0% interest creates an incentive to spend and not save..... so there is that... it also forces the traditional savers into the Wall street casino.... bubble and bust, cleans out the little guy To be clear, as a matter of policy, I'm not in favor of 0% interest rates, or the even more destructive effects of negative rates. Unfortunately, too many country's used the BS excuse provided by the followers of Keynes to overspend (think Japan) and create a debt bubble so huge they had to resort to zero rates to prevent the detonation a debt bomb. This lead to the "Yen Carry Trade", when traders would borrow money at zero rates in Japanese Yen and use it to purchase U.S Treasuries at say, 4%. This increase in demand for our Treasuries pushed yields down, and hence, gives us lower rates weather we like it or not. As some of you may recall, after his appointment as Fed Chair, Jerome Powell attempted to RAISE our interest rates to something more "sensible" for a proper growing economy. However, money markets are not local markets, but global markets, so there was no way he could do this in the global low rate environment without crashing the U.S. economy. The irony of this, is this global low rate environment's the reason all you old retired anti-globalist still get your social security checks. Interest payments on the debt have dropped from a high around 16% back to their historical 7-8% level, despite our current high debt levels, as a result of low global interest rates. This free's up cash for your social security and medicare payments that would not otherwise be available. Without further increases in our nations debt. The gold standard would prevent politicians from abusing our money.... No it wouldn't. Politics is the practice of getting what you want with other people's money. The gold standard would not change that. If sure didn't hinder FDR, nor did it hinder our politicians post WWII, nor for that matter, did it prevent the Romans:
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824 |
A big part of the Depression was that there was no money in circulation. I'm not enough an economist to know the whys of it but the common person couldn't lay his hands on any cash. My grandparents lost a farm because of it. Their mortgage was $200/yr. They had good crops in the barn but couldn't sell them for cash, only barter. Nobody had any cash to buy the stuff. They couldn't come up with the $200 and lost it. Folks had cash, but were reluctant to spend it. The proof of this is that records from that time period show high rates of savings by Americans. This can be caused by a high rate of deflation, such that people see prices falling, so put off non-essential purchases till prices fall further, closer to what they believe is the price bottom, not wanting to feel ripped off after having paid X price for a product, and a month later discovering that prices had fallen significantly since their purchase. A seller might well interpret this as a shortage of cash in the system, but that would be false. And that is the problem with deflation, and why it kills economic growth. Economies run on private debt. Deflation creates an incentive to save, but no incentive to lend or invest. With no lending there's no new businesses, no economic growth, and worse, existing businesses can not function without sufficient working capital and properly functioning capital markets. 0% interest creates an incentive to spend and not save..... so there is that... it also forces the traditional savers into the Wall street casino.... bubble and bust, cleans out the little guy To be clear, as a matter of policy, I'm not in favor of 0% interest rates, or the even more destructive effects of negative rates. Unfortunately, too many country's used the BS excuse provided by the followers of Keynes to overspend (think Japan) and create a debt bubble so huge they had to resort to zero rates to prevent the detonation a debt bomb. This lead to the "Yen Carry Trade", when traders would borrow money at zero rates in Japanese Yen and use it to purchase U.S Treasuries at say, 4%. This increase in demand for our Treasuries pushed yields down, and hence, gives us lower rates weather we like it or not. As some of you may recall, after his appointment as Fed Chair, Jerome Powell attempted to RAISE our interest rates to something more "sensible" for a proper growing economy. However, money markets are not local markets, but global markets, so there was no way he could do this in the global low rate environment without crashing the U.S. economy. The irony of this, is this global low rate environment's the reason all you old retired anti-globalist still get your social security checks. Interest payments on the debt have dropped from a high around 16% back to their historical 7-8% level, despite our current high debt levels, as a result of low global interest rates. This free's up cash for your social security and medicare payments that would not otherwise be available. Without further increases in our nations debt. The gold standard would prevent politicians from abusing our money.... No it wouldn't. Politics is the practice of getting what you want with other people's money. The gold standard would not change that. If sure didn't hinder FDR, nor did it hinder our politicians post WWII, nor for that matter, did it prevent the Romans: You are no fun to argue with........
Originally Posted by Judman PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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