Home Forums Gear Horses and ATV's New 4 wheeler advice?

You bring up a very interesting point JJHACK, it seems to me that at some point they decided that even a utility bike needs to ride like a highway bike. Some years ago we killed a couple moose in a valley that had no access and you had to cover about 3 miles of high ridge Muskeg to get back to the valley that camp was in. A buddy had a Polaris with IFS and it was soo funny watching him come across that ridge with LOTS of moose meat on his racks. He kept having to stop and let the blood flow back out of his arms, he looked like Popeye from all the vertical up and down wrestling he was doing with the machine. I do see the advantages of the IFS but it some places it'll kill you if its too soft. The other 2 Hondas just kinda bounced right over the ridge with the solid rear axle and no fusses.

The 300 had the old friction plate type limited slip.The old style weren't all that bad when they were new,but after some usage causing wear on the clutches,they became virtually useless.Several years ago,honda replaced this limited slip with a new type that works much better and does not fade away with usage like the old type.

[quote=stubblejumper]Where snow is concerned,tires are very important.


Actually in snow, tires are secondary to ground clearance. The stock dunflops usually do terrific,because of good wheel speed due to the lightness of 2 or 4 ply tires.Radials are nice since you can run around 3 lbs of pressure and ride on top of the crust.Wider tires also play a role. I run 25-12-12 mudlites on a solid axle 1999 grizzly with ,and its made a big differance in snow. Lockers play a major role and often allow you to get out stuff that you got stuck in with limited slip. The majority of the time you high center long before you run out of traction.You high center the quickest with solid axles like the rubicon.Irs axles continue to extend when high centered. This will either lead to you getting enough traction to move,or burying deeper. The fact that you don't know this stubblejumper, leads me to believe you don't have half the experience you claim to have.

I've read a number of your posts stubble,pertaining to muskeg and how tough it is.I've had the oppurtunity to ride muskeg on two seperate hunts. One lasted 7 days,the other was a 10 day hunt. The outfitter had 300cc fourtrax with bearclaws and mudbugs. It was about like snow,traction was seldom an issue,but ground clearance played a major role. He even had a grizzly with extended A arms and mudzillas. His conclusion was the extra ground clearance played more of a role then tire choice.



(Locking differentials do help with traction on snow and ice,but you need to unlock them to turn sharp or the quad tries to go straight instead of turning.)


There again you don't have a clue what you're talking about stubble. In ice and snow a locker turns the easiest.On dry ground it can be tough,but nothing a grown man or women can't handle. Add power steering like the 700 grizzly and of which I own and you now have a fully locked atv that turns like a limited slip. In limited slip mode with power steering you have steering like a 2wd quad. I don't have to guess about this since I also own a 660 grizzly without power steering,that fully locks.








(I have ridden my Rubicon in over a foot of snow with 26" gators and I had no problems keeping up with the yamaha or polaris machines.)


I wouldn't expect you to have a problem with a limited slip in a foot of snow. Since you're still sinking to solid ground.

Try the same ride in 2 to 3 foot of spring snow,with a base made of ice and slush.It will quickly get old on a solid axle limited slip atv. Been there done it.

Gators run small for stated size,so your 26's are closer to true 25 inch bighorns.


Stubble,you also mentioned that sidehilling is more difficult and more unstable with irs then with a solid axle swing arm. There again you should actually try what you claim, rather then simply speculate. I currently own a solid axle 99 grizzly and have owned and still use a rubicon. The rubicon is more stable then the 99 grizzly,but the Irs on my 2005 grizzly and 07 grizzly are every bit as stable as the rubicon all with elk quarters on them. Things are even more stable on a polaris with IRS,they really are a platform.

I don't care what tires you have on your quad,a quad will break through almost any snow crust.



So if traction was not important in muskeg,why did the outfitter bother to waste money on Mudbugs?If ground clearance was so important,why would an outfitter whose lively hood depends on his quads being able to travel over muskeg use the Honda 300 which has very little ground clearance?Did he choose his quads and tires because he knows what works in muskeg,or did a person with so much experience riding muskeg make poor quad and tire choices?



I have ridden several machines with detroit lockers installed,and while they do go through mud or snow better,they tend to want to go straight ahead,especially on ice.



If that was the case,why does the outfitter you refer to use the honda 300 with it's solid rear axle?In fact why do the vast majority of outfitters use solid axle quads like the smaller hondas or the yamaha big bear.As for the polaris,I don't know of a single outfitter that uses polaris quads.You seem to think that you have all the answers so tell me why the outfitters do not use polaris quads.Almost every outfitter,and almost every seismic company and forestry crew that I have seen, use either the smaller displacement honda or yamaha quads with solid axles.Why do you suppose that is?

I'd say outftters don't use polaris,because they're undependable pieces of [bleep].The same reason I don't own a polaris. That still doesn't change the fact that polaris IRS is stable as any solid axle quad.Or the fact that their all wheel drive is good.

As for honda 300's being used.The outfitter used them because they were cheap to buy,fuel economy was good and the 300 is the pinnacle of durability.Honda will never make another atv as durable as the 300.There's nothing on one to go wrong,that usually isn't self inflicted by the user. No electronic shift.Always in 4wd. No clearance. He also used tow ropes real well.

Considering that mudbugs can be picked up as cheap as any after market tire out there due to popularity.Six ply is also more durable.They also came with the used grizzly.Running them on a grizzly wasn't much of a statement.Running after market A arms for clearance was a statement,and using the grizzly to tow out the 300's with regularity also was a statement. The 300's also had mudbugs on them,but no ground clearance.He ran the bearclaws because they were even cheaper then mudbugs and wore better.Which has also been my experience with bear claws.


I'd say the majority of crews use small displacement quads with solid axles.Because of fuel economy.They're cheaper to buy and the 300 fourtrax and 350 big bear being entry level only come with solid axles.Add to this the guy doing the purchasing is probably ignorant like you stubble and believes that solid axles are the only thing out there with durability. Remoteness also tends to mean air lifted equipment.Meaning smaller is better.Everything costs more so entry level quads mean affordable.


The forestry crews around here use almost all polaris sleds and atv's with a smattering of old 300 hondas and the occasional XR dirt bike.

On the subject of tires breaking through snow crust. Its a matter of how much you sink. With a deflated radial or 25-12-12's,the sinking is a hell of alot less and you do tend to ride up on the snow crust. There again I don't have to guess,I've actually used the above mentioned equipment and seen the actual results..

I agree with you stubble on the lockers. They do tend to take you straight through things that get you stuck with a limited slip.

There are two more very important reasons that outfitters and crews use the small displacement machines with solid axles.The first being that independent suspension machines lose ground clearance because the suspension sags as they are loaded,while solid axle machines do not suffer from this problem.Throw one quarter of moose on each rack and then see how much ground clearance the quad with independent rear suspension has left.Secondly,and most importantly,the lighter the better in muskeg.A light machine like the 300 honda with wide tires will float over a lot of muskeg without sinking nearly as much as the heavier machines.Therefore they get stuck less,provided the rider knows how to ride on muskeg.Most people that get stuck in muskeg don't have enough experience to know how to ride on it.They usually are too harsh on the throttle and spin out and sink in the muskeg.I guess that is why the outfitter spent so much time pulling you out.The weight issue is just one more reason the porky polaris quads don't do well in muskeg.

An Irs quad isn't going to lose ground clearance due to the irs itself. You will bottom out the travel.Polaris Irs will allow the skid plate to extend slightly bellow level when overloaded.Polaris is the only one I've seen this on. The rims aren't going to mysteriously shrink on an IRS quad and give less height. Yamaha uses a torsion bar of sorts in its IRS and it greatly limits the travel.I can take a set of channel locks or the actual suspension tool and stiffen the suspension on a grizzly to the point that its as miserable to ride as a rubicon or other straight axle.

I've placed half an elk on each rack before,which is equal to a quarter of moose. I've also had a quarter of buffalo on each rack which is more then a moose quarter,on an IRS grizzly and I still had as much ground clearance as usual.Of course the tires were compressed and bulged more,but that happens with a solid axle also when grossly overloaded.

The IRS ground clearance myth was propagated back when polaris was the only atv with long travel IRS suspension.And it was always the guy on a straight axle quad who'd never even seen an IRS overloaded.It was portrayed as something really scarey and many people had sleepless nights over it.Since then everybody is running IRS and doing just fine.

Running mudbugs on a beat to hell worn out 300,didn't leave much throttle, so spinning out wasn't an occurance. High centering was though. For a self proclaiming expert on muskeg. Stubble you seem to be lacking in real knowledge,but don't let that hold you back from telling us all about it..

As stated that 300 was as bullet proof a machine as has ever been built. I owned one, and my best friend still has it. I wish there was an odometer, or hour meter on it because it would tell an amazing story about the dependability of that machine.

The functionality of that machine compared to the Grizzly 450 I now have is not comparable. The IRS, low range, auto trans, and Diff lock put this Grizzly in a whole nother league! I use a crop sprayer on my Grizzly which is a hella heavy weight with that big tank on my rear rack. The suspension will sag a bit, but at no time does it get lower then the 300 is when empty.

The fix for this is very easy. Highlifter makes replacement springs that add 100 pounds to the carry capacity. It will raise the rear end between half and one inch when unloaded. On the low setting for the spring preload it's a smooth ride which does not change the feel of the machine from stock. On the high setting it changes the rear end to the stiffnessand stability of a solid axle. Granted this does not come from Yamaha this way, which is should. But it does give you back the utility function of your Utility ATV.

I have to mow quite a bit of acreage on side hills with my tow behind brush mower. At first it was a challange to drive those sidehills with the IRS, now after some time doing it, I have no concern what ever. It's a skill set, not a machine limitation.

One thing that the Grizzly has proven to me with the Auto Trans is the far superios ability to climb hills. No more issues with climbing with silly high rpms only to run out of seam half way up and spin out or stall in second gear. With the diff lock and auto shift, this Grizz will out climb the 300 honda every single time.

It's difficult to compare the two as they are not competitors, not even close. However in 1995 when I bought the Honda, it was about 5k, this year when I bought the Yamaha I paid less then 6K

For under 1000 bucks difference the features and functionality are night and day. The Yamaha has a fuel guage, trip and hour meters, 12volt outlet, all disc brakes, floorplates, etc etc.

After owning that honda and seeing what was done with it never missing a beat a single time, never dissapointing me with breakage, or starting. I was a Honda man through and through. I could not buy a Honda with the features this grizzly has for any amount of money. They simply don't make one! I could only get a honda with rather basic limited features, and it was about 2000 bucks more money.

Since I have a Yamaha outboard, again 30% less then the equal Honda 4 stroke and it has run perfectly for all the years I've owned it, just like the Honda 300 did. I chose the Yamaha Grizz as it's durability is on par with all the other big makers of ATV's. I agree that in the late 80's and early 90's Honda had a lock on the durability reputation. That however has long since been equalized with several other machines on the market.

With that now balanced, it's about value for the dollar to me. And in that respect, I have more loyalty to my money, then I do to any specific brand.

The ES shifting system on both our Honda's is awesome, we have never had a problem with it....ever. As far as tires go, go to any site, say High Lifter and see what tires are being used by hard core atv users, they won't be Maxxis Big Horns, this I can guarantee. I've been using ITP Mudlites for the last 2 years and simply love those tires. I got stuck bad this past weekend in water and mud that was over my waders, mud was like clay and very heavy. I had to get winched out but that was my fault, I should have got off the bike and walked it across that mudhole so that was a lesson learned. The Bighorns might be a great tire down in the lower 48 but up here, you need something with more bite. AkCub is right, 589's, Mudlites, Gators, and Mudbugs rule up here. The Honda 300 Fourtrax is one mean little rig and Honda too a small step back when they stopped making them along with the 450 Foreman.

Go to highlifter and ask them about your mudlites. You'll hear what [bleep] they are and how fast they wear. Even though mudlites have been using the same compound as the bulletproof 589's that everyone brags on.

Highlifter is a waste of time. A bunch of 16 year olds telling fairytales about dads atv.

Who ever said bighorns were mud tires?

One thing you will see on highlifter,is guys trying get as much ground clearance on an atv as possible. But according to stubble that isn't needed. Just a rubicon with mudbugs and a limited slip diff.And you've got an atv that borders on hover craft like abilities.

Nobody said Bighorn tires were mud tires but a few here have said they work great on everything, which includes mud. I can guarantee you my Mudlites will work better in mud and muskeg than those Bighorns and thats what i'm saying. So your also saying that the suspension on an IRS machine will not lose ground clearance when loaded down but I have to differ on that one. I've seen it first hand with bikes loaded with moose quarters and gear. Use what you want but don't give people [bleep] because they ride something different than you. I like my Honda because it does everything i need it to do and it does it well. I don't want more junk on my machine, just something else that could break and leave me stranded.

I did some rooting around on atv forum and a couple of others that came up on google.

MAN are there some differing opinions !!

Some people swear by the big artic cat -some polaris .

Anyway no one can tell me the jap machines aren't good personally i'd trust a honda yamaha kawasaki suzuki because they been in the game a long time !

Different opinions here than most other forums -but many of the people stating opinions were from regions like georgia -kansas etc. .
-Guys in the alaska and canadian wilderness mud -snow -super cold remote places will be the ones who shape my opinion.
Of coarse some down here in the lower 48 who mows sprays ranchs guides knows quads to.

There is a lack of small/midsize quads w/4x4 drive.
I want durability -longrange capability -and nimble.

You guys throw out some mileage/range numbers your quads will go on a full tank under hunting conditions if you will.Thanks Mike

Twist things as you like.I never said that ground clearance or a locking differential wasn't a good thing.What I did say is that tires can make a huge difference,and that a solid rear axle does have advantages even though it does not ride as smoothly.I also stated that lighter weight is a big advantage in muskeg.The funny thing is that the fellows that share my opinions are from Alaska,where the riding conditions are similar to my own.But considering that you have ridden in muskeg twice,you obviously know better.

"I can guarantee you my Mudlites will work better in mud and muskeg than those Bighorns and thats what I'm saying. So your also saying that the suspension on an IRS machine will not lose ground clearance when loaded down but I have to differ on that one. I've seen it first hand with bikes loaded with moose quarters and gear."

And you're basing your guarantee on the mudlites and bighorns on what. On what you've heard? I highly doubt you've used bighorns.

Mudlites are considered by the majority of serious mud riders,as being only slightly better then factory tires. In fact the price tag is what sells them. I picked up some off ebay for $45 a tire new. I'd venture to bet thats why you bought them.Instead of mudbugs.


No an IRS won't lose anymore ground clearance when overloaded,then that of a solid axle.There again more bullsh!t about IRS being spewed as truth.

If we followed the wisdom of you and stubble when it comes to independant suspension. We'd also be able to safely assume that the front of your hondas which are independant,(IFS)lose all kinds of clearance when loaded down and turn into skidder blades.While the rear solid axle doesn't lose anything. Is that what happens to a honda?

Actually,I've spent around 17 days worth of riding.And judging by the odometer on the outfitters atv it equated to around 700 miles of riding your beloved muskeg. I'd say I've got enough experience in muskeg to say what does and doesn't work. The bottom line was a modified independant suspension made all the differance along with all 4wheels being locked.

I'd never place much faith in what you and the fellows that share your views believe. You've demonstrated that you have limited exsposure to whats out there for atv's and what works.


If I was ol mike I would look right in idaho for opinions on atv's. Don't kid yourself,you've got every bit as tough conditions in idaho as alaska does. If I was interested in mudding I'd look to somebody in the southern states where they actually ride mud. I'd place more faith in the opinion some minnesota wonder on atv's then an alaskan.

LOL.....your awful touchy about all this, nothing in my post was deragotry or did I ever imply that other machines were not up to par, I was stating only what I know and have seen. And I didn't buy the Mudlites because they are cheap in price ,,you said you paid $45 per tire, wish I could say that but I can't, I paid $70 per tire and that was on sale. Bring your wheeler on up here and see how good those Bighorns work where I ride. Oh yeah, don't worry, i'll be happy to pull you out when you get stuck....and you will get stuck.

Just as an observer here, I read this as though the bighorns were a top choice as an all around tire, not specific to being "The Best" tire in a single type of habitat.

After all these machines are named ATV ...... All Terrain Vehicle

Not MTV..... muskeg terrain vehicle, or MTV mud terrain vehicle

The machines are actually intended for ALL terrians, rock, steep hills, mud muskeg, ice snow, sand and even pavement! All sorts of habitats and terrains. The way I read this regarding the tires, was to have a selection which included all these.

I don't see anyone claiming that any tire beats a chevron style ATV tire in muskeg or mud. However the Bighorns from what I have read and seen in person with lots of personal experience are a top notch all around ATV tire.

Mike - I live in your area, and we don't have muskeg, its hard to locate mud most months. I have two quads, both 4x4. The Honda 350 electronic shift is under-powered for the Idaho mountains. I don't like having to downshift to first inorder to make hills. I've had the shifter fail once while afield but the lever in the tool kit did the trick - problem corrected itself after it dried out. One of the reasons the Hondas last forever is because they are de-tuned. But I'll say it is the most nimble 4 wheeler I've ridden and comfortable - it's my wife's bike.

The 450 Kodiak AT works awfully well for me and seem to be the right size but is by no means what I consider nimble. The AT uses fuel at a much higher rate, the engine runs fairly hard all the time. The gas tank is larger so it doesn't matter to me how much fuel I use, it mainly about range. It's got differential lockers, high/low range, and a switch to take it from 2 to 4 wheel drive. I've had little need for any of these options but will abmit to using them often - pretty boring riding a 4 wheeler in my opinion.

Both bikes have a range of a 100 miles but be very careful with that number. That's a 100 miles driving in the Owyhee desert or on secondary roads with a short run up logging roads. Gaining altitude burns bunches of fuel - the bikes weigh 600 pounds. I've hunted rockchucks off my bike but never big game. Drive it, park it, and then go hunting - I've lots of stories about people riding and doing what they call hunting.

If you want light and nimble may I suggest a motorcycle. I've got tons of experience with off road motorcycles. In the motorcross world Honda and Yamaha lead the engineering, Kawasakis are very fast but aren't as well made, it's been over 20 years since I've been exposed to a Suzuki although I do hear many praising their quads plus Carmichel is kicking butt with his 450. BTW, I ride a Kawi, most of my riding partners ride Yamaha.

No muskeg here in the South, just good old Georgia clay & some deep black mud bottoms. Highlifter outlaws do pretty well for me......

badger

Boise ,

Thanks for the info. on the quads range.

I have plenty of go fast stuff 01' cr500 and yam r 1 so performance w/a quad will be -range and reliability.

I have considered a motorcycle [trail bike] -somethng small and quiet.I don't care if it won't tear up hills at high speed.
The little ttr 125L yamaha and honda crf 150 look good for my purposes.
Many of the huge quads would be about as hard to hide as a truck in desert country.Although a small trail bike laid over in the sage would be easy to hide and haul.
One of the small receiver hitch mount -bike haulers would be nice.
I have an eberlestock pack that would work well w/a bike.
I've even considered a bicycle for some of the open country hunting i do ,one w/suspension front and rear would cover some ground !Those 3/4 mile walks between calling sets get long after about 5-6 go-rounds.-Mike