Home Forums Gear Horses and ATV's New 4 wheeler advice?

Looking at 4 wheelers 350 to 450 cc, kinda leaning to the 400 honda rancher. I also like the 450 king quad and the 450 grizzly. I will be using it for getting deer out of the woods and some work around the hunting grounds. What is the best bang for the buck in the 5k to 6k price range?

KAWASAKI

The one on the top is a 05 360 and bottom is 06 bruteforce.

IMHO, the Suzuki Eiger offers the most bang for the buck in 400cc class machines...

HONDA

Love the honda but they're soo far behind the times it's sad.They want 9 grand here for a 350 4by.Its still got drum brakes small gas tank like I said they're so far behind they still think they're first.

Honda is so dependable they probably don't need to do much changing.

360 4by mileage.It's had just oil and gas.I know of NO Honda on the planet with that mileage that hasn't had a major repair.I've owned them all the kawi's are the best so far.

That's impressive miles on a four wheeler. Did you say 9 grand for a 350 honda? The 350 rancher 4x with the 5 spd are going for 4600 to 5100 (US) depending on the dealer, the 400 are about 200 to 400 higher. I have had honda's in the past but they were three wheelers and motorcycles. The 200,250 Big Reds I had were bullet proof, would ride them very hard all day never did anything but change oil and adjust valves for many years. The only thing I do not like about the honda 350 and 400 rancher is the suspension. The polaris and king quad, eiger, grizzlys I have rode in the same size ride so much better. The last Kawi I rode was a 300 prarrie 4x4 auto, nice bike , did not like the auto on that bike it seemed to take alot of revs to get it to move. I have not ridden the newer kawi's they may be better. I have looked at some used bikes but probaly will buy a new bike.

Look at the Honda rancher 420 ES (there is a manual shift version as well), I just picked one up for low $5,000 (US). Nice snappy bike. The Fuel injection helps

There is no question that the Honda has less of the options. On the other hand I looked at a lot of different units in the 400 & 500 range, this one seems to suit me the best - let you know better in a few thounsand miles

Reality is that there are a number I could have bought and had little or no complaints.

Yup 9 grand with the winch package.I paid 92 for the brute force 650.

Boy, it is fun to see these opinion threads with so much passion exhibited on both sides of the same piece of equipment. Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Can Am, etc. what's a guy to do?

I have a 2004 Suzuki Eiger. I bought it because I had a Suzuki King Quad 300, and it was unstoppable with only 300 cc's.I have also had Yamaha's in Grizzly and Big Bear configurations, and found them to be very good as well.

Back to the Eiger. It isn't the most powereful machine out there, but it has plenty of power for whatever hunting needs you may require. When it comes to parking lots, they all look good. Get them out into the woods under adverse conditions and then look again. We had a Yamaha Kodiak, Polaris 500 Sportsman, Arctic Cat 400, Polaris sportsman 400, and my Eiger in eastern Montana turkey hunting this spring.

There was about 8" of wet snow that melted, turning the whole countyside into a red gumbo/clay mess. There was only one rider that wasn't covered with crud, and I'm glad to say it was me on the Eiger. They do look good on a parking lot with all the high fenders and high ground clearance, but when it came to using them, they all got where we were going, just the Eiger was the most rider friendly.

There is more to look at than what dealers tell you and the people that ride trails under favorable circumstances. I have mine and use it for what it was intended, and it works wonderfully. You will always find a Dodge truck owner that even likes his truck, so be careful about others opinions.

If it wasn't for those bikes one moose last fall we would of had to build a shack and eat it there.

I'm still stuck on the 9 grand, I need to buy 3 or 4 send them to you to sell and we'll split the profit. Seriously were in the world would someone pay that much for a 350 honda! I guess the 5300 for the rancher or similar bike here isn't so bad. BTW the kawi is a strong bike but It is not my choice. I found a 450 griz in the paper today, going to take a look tomorrow. Ad said like new, but that's a matter of opinion.

I had a dodge truck and did like it, so what does that mean!

Lotsa places charge freight, set-up, documentation, sales tax, etc. on top of the listed price so things can add up in a hurry, and that doesn't even take into account any extras such as a winch.

Honda's are great machines, but they're one of the most expensive and they're way behind the times if you ask me...

The motorbike shop here has everybody by the nuts.If you don't buy it someone else will.With the yammy's CHECK BOTH DIFFS FOR SHAVING'S.Theirs diffs are about as strong as wet spagetti.

The key word you used is "had". I don't think you need too much therapy as you don't have a Dodge now. Fight the fight and stay straight, we're all in this together.

With the yammy's CHECK BOTH DIFFS FOR SHAVING'S.Theirs diffs are about as strong as wet spagetti. [/quote]


What a bunch of bullsh!t.

Wet Spagetti is being kind.Ever see inside those pea size pumkins.Their gears are softer than azzwipe.

I would look at the Honda RancherES 420 or the Foreman 500. For what you need it for they are more than enough machine and are good utility bikes. I've been riding atv's since 1989 and Honda's since 1992, i've owned 2 Fourtrax 300's, 1 2x4 and 1 4x4 and my current machine, a 2004 ForemanES 4x4. I use mine all the time for hunting trips, trail riding and plowing my driveway and have zero issues with all of them. There's all kinds of machines out there for $5500 and under, get out and ride some of them and see what best suits your needs.

Never once seen a yamaha with weak gears or gear problems. I highly doubt you have either 7stw.

I have seen plenty of piece of [bleep] kawasaki's. But that would explain why yamaha outsells kawasaki at least 50 to 1

Never had a Yamaha fail me - we have a 1994/5 Timberwolf that has some serious hours on it. Not a hiccup. Changed the plugs 3x since new, the oil 1 time a year and that's it.

Runs every weekend from Sept to Dec and many more in between as a clays cart. Exceeded rack capacity by several hundred pounds on a weekly basis over the last 13 years.

Go blue and never worry.

Don't care if they out sell them 55555555555555555555555555555 to one.Those kawi's never found their way to the garage by accident.

BTW.....The pos bike that was traded in on the 650 was a solid axel 450.So really could give too chitts about you and your rides.[bleep] forgot more about engine's last nite in bed sleeping then you'll prolly ever know.

I believe you probably tossed off in bed last night,but it had nothing to do with engines or yamaha.

What the hell does your trading in a straight axle for a 650 have to do with anything,other then you got screwed buying another kawasucki.

I'm sure your kawasucki's found their way to the garage in the back of a pickup,just like a blue heeler.

"No honda on the planet with that mileage that hasn't had a major repair" That must of been an extra wet dream night in bed for you 7stw,to even dream up some statement,that [bleep] stupid..

Theres only probably a couple 100k farmers and ranchers out there with a honda that has over 10k on it with no repairs. But evidently,you have the market cornered with 8k on a kawasucki.

Then again a major repair on a real atv like a yamaha or honda,would just be considered routine or continual repairs on a kawasaki or polaris.

Yawn

I'm sure you play a mean banjo too.Go back to your sheep festival.Clown

Hey Clown
Maybe quit talking about your daddy's bike's.Get your own.

That statement is blatantly wrong.I personally know of a 300 honda with over 11,000 miles on them with no major repairs.I also know of a yamaha big bear with over 13,000 miles on it with no major repairs.

Thats really nice.Guess we kick the crap out of our stuff.

The atvs that I am referring to belong to outfitters.These machines have been ridden double,have hauled heavy loads and have been used in harsh conditions yet they still keep running with minimum maintenance.

Right wrong or indifference I can't buy it.I've seen the way outfitters treat their bikes here.Thats way too hard of a sell.

I believe they have the mileage but not without some cash thrown at them.Most outfitters I know would gladly use their rifle for a tire jack handle if needed.Everything's a tool to those fella's.

You are generalizing by assuming that all ouftitters are the same.Believe what you want,I know these two people quite well,and they have no reason to lie.One of them keeps buying hondas,and the other yamahas because of the great durability that these quads have provided over the years.Besides that,these outfitters can't afford downtime,so if major work had been required,they would have replaced these machines to keep their outfits operating.

Kawasucki's only real claim to fame,has been a 650 v twin in the prairie.Which at the time was all the rage because it was the largest displacement.Then the Brute farces showed up. Which offer nothing.Especially the 750. Hell owners of the 750 have been complaining to kawasaki,that its underpowered and the 650 will keep up with it for $1500 less.

In fact I'd venture to say that the majority of kawasaki owners,bought a kawasaki atv,because of price tag. Without fail kawasaki will cost less to buy initially.Which is why most dealers carry them as a secondary atv brand,for the cheap [bleep] that see nothing but price tag and engine displacement.

Its plain laughable to even try and say that kawasaki is more durable and trouble free,then honda and yamaha. I know of three differant company owners that put over 10,000 miles a year on honda and yamaha atv's with no repairs. Nobody runs kawasaki,atv's.A few companies run kawasaki mules and have been fazing them out also.

I do not know much about the Kawi's but from what I have seen the Hondas have the market here in my area. The polaris and yamaha are next in line, then the suzuki. I see very few kawi's. I have decided on the 450 grizzly and most likely have one by the end of the week. My dad has a 06 350 rancher which I like but I want a bike with indep. suspension and the grizz fits my needs. This turned into a ford vs chevy deal except it's about four wheelers. I've been debating on getting a four wheeler for about 3 years didn't think I needed one but it's getting harder to get deer out as I get older. Especially the last 2 years my back been giving me trouble, just can't drag them real far any more and getting a truck to them is impossible most of the time.

Clown


This cheap [bleep] wants to know which one is you.Just so I know who I'm dealing with.I'll venture a guess.The fat guy on the far left.

7stw, I was with you on most of your posts until you started talking about Hondas breaking down. You simply have no idea how good Honda atv's are, i've got many friends that own Hondas and will own nothing else, lots of hard miles on Alaskan trails and harsh winter riding. If you fly into any village in Alaska you will see 10 Honda's to every 1 of any other make. Villagers need reliability and can't afford to have machines break down, the cost of flying in parts is ridiculous. I know 1 Honda dealer in the Valley that sells hundreds of ATV's every year to the folks in the bush. Seems like this post was headed in the right direction but like any other forum that talks about peoples favorite rides, it turns into a [bleep] storm.

I knew a Wildlife and Fisheries agent who rode his company-issued bike nearly every day. He did not care for the Kawasaki that he had been riding lately. He said it rode nice when it worked, but he called it a "Kaus-it-makes-me-walkee."

I know that Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, are all decent japanese bikes these days. But I consistently hear durability tales regarding Honda, and to a lesser degree, Yamaha.

I think they all have their good and bad points.Yes honda is good but not bulletproof.None are.Seen pos's in all brands.
Also
Sorry to the good campfire members for being pulled into a slapfest.Also the same to the guy who's thread is now wrecked.

This isn't a slap fest. You're just full of [bleep] 7stw and you've started to believe your own bullsh!t as fact. We just needed to help you out a bit in the factual department.

Your a [bleep] Clown.........

http://www.lakehillmotors.com/hondaatvs.htm

This place isn't far from me and sells the 350 4x4 electric shift for $4500 out the door, not including tax. Honda replaced the 350 rancher with the 420 this year, they sell it for $4680.

http://www.southernhonda.com/new_ve...cturer=1&Category=2&CatDesc=ATVs

This place sells manual shift 4x4 honda 350 ranchers for $4283 out the door before tax.

Someone is getting royally screwed if they're paying $9k for a $4300 atv. You might be in alaska, but there are roads south and pickup trucks to drive them.

A few years back I was hunting out of a camp near egegik alaska and the outfitter had a fleet of about 7-8 honda 300 atv's. My cousin, a big yahama fan, asked the outfitter why he had all hondas. He replied that they'd tried everything else and the hondas were the only thing that held up. For me, I don't get far from civilization on an ATV unless it's got honda stamped on it. Call me biased but I don't trust anything else.

I'm up in northern B.C.Everything and anything is pricey.

B.C= Bring Cash

I just got the 450 Grizzly hunter edtion and love it. The fourwheel drive is what sold me on it. It's push button so you olny have lock it in when you need it. The other thing is flip the cover over when you locked it in to use the locker in the front so your locked up all around. I've had it up to 50mph and went on a ride w/ a buddy that has a 700 grizzly he used a tank of gas to my 1/2 of tank. I like the yamaha I did alot of looking the past few months and been around hondas most of my life. It's just my 2cents.

Honda's top of the line -msrp for a rincon =$7849 NOBODY in the US pays msrp.

2006-350cc 4x4 =$5099 msrp.Out the door price would be less than $5000.
This isn't directed at you 7STW just stating what hondas web-site states.BC =prices suck !

I have some friends in florida that have far more money than sense.One has a 500 acre farm where the whole group of friends relatives and anybody they know who likes to drink beer and raise hell w/ jeeps -quads -dirt bikes -rhinos mules etc. .

They have slew ditches as they call them and a couple of retention ponds that they take their equipment into to "make a showin".Whoever absolutely abuses their machinery the most is "the man".
This has gone on for 15 yrs plus going to cheeha mountain and other regional swampy places/sink holes to ride.
Between them and their kids they have had basically every brand of machine on the market.And through all of this dubability testing over the years Honda is the chosen quad.
All of these machines get very and i mean very little maintenance.Abuse it all weekend and park it by the barn.
There are a couple of 10-12 yr old 300/400 hondas that they just laugh about -b/c it has been sunk beat-up abused for so many years they can't believe it.
I think most of the jap quads are very good as is the polaris BUT the reliablity a of honda cannot be denied.
Another friend bought 3 quads a few years ago 375 polaris -90cc polaris and a -250 recon honda -both polaris had several problems and the father and son took turns hi-jacking moms 250 honda recon.And both father and son complained it rode so rough you're back would hurt and couldn't wait to get their polaris back.
Anyway i'm in the market for a new quad and will likely go w/a honda b/c of the reading i've did over the past couple of years.
Good luck w/your quads-Mike

10K is nothing on a Honda (or other ATV - although in rural Alaska, "honda' is what ATVs are called mainly because that's what most of them are.) In rural Alaska in many places, a Honda is used much like a car in other places so 10K or more miles in a year is not unheard of. A buddy of mine has over 30,000 miles on his Foreman.

I don't like the Ranchers. too many have made a quick trip from the nursery to the graveyard. I drive an Eiger right now. It's only a year old but runs well. I would imagine it has between 5-7K miles on it. I really don't know as the odometer was crunched with 1100 miles on it when it went rubber side up in the ocean when it was a month old.

Find a machine or two that you really like the features on, then research them hard.

I think you are going to like that machine. In that class it is my favorite machine. Hondas are ok machines as far as how long they last for the most part. The problem is to get them to last like that Honda uses Restrictors so they don't have the same power and they haven't kept up on the technology and their suspension isn't in the same cateory as many of the other brands. I've had Honda but have mostly road Yamaha over the years and certainly have no complaints about them. Right now I've got a couple of Kawi's and so far so good. They are 650's and I bought them because of the price. For several years Kawi just didn't have a marketing program but I haven't run into problems with them. I'm surprised Polaris sells the number they do but they spend LOTS on advertising. Susuki has a couple of winners as well. I wouldn't mind trying their 700 EFI with the box on the back and longer frame.

I see no one is championing the polaris brand. lol. I got one and it has been less than reliable.......

I heard an urban legend/rumor that Kawi's and Suzi's use the same power plant mfg'r. Anybody confirm or deny this?

I'm not sure about the Kawi but I know Arctic Cat uses the Suzuki powerplant.

An old man (farmer) close to my house has a Honda 400 4X4 of mid to late 90's vintage with 34k miles on it. Original clutch, just tune-up parts, batteries, tires, cv boots etc. No major mechanical replacements or repairs. He uses it daily on his farm..........

badger

kawi is kawi

Kawasaki and suzuki have a partnership -sharing technology.

They each swap different models back and forth and do nothing more than change the name and color.

It doesn't appear to happen w/their flagship models like a 1400cc ninja is solely a kawasaki -1300cc hayabusa is solely a suzuki.

Other makers using other powerplants =no idea.Probably though.

My Honda dealer has worked on ranch Honda 300s that have 50K+ miles on the clock and the engines still purr. The rest of the poor rigs look pretty tough but that's the life of a ranch rig, and not Honda's fault.

I've got a Rancher 350ES, and my pop had two 300s (one was stolen) and a Foreman 500. Anything mechanical can be broken, especially if abused. Honda has a great reputation for a reason. They all look purty on the showroom floor, but they're not created equal.

Arctic cat uses suzuki motors in both their quads and sleds.

YOu are right Polaris is the LAST brand I would go for.
I belive Kawi and Suzi HAD a relationship where Suzi started with some Kawi power plants that has since gone away. At least that's my most recent understanding. Both seem to be more than adequate and a grade above the polaris.

Suzuki and Kawi split the sheets awhile back thats from the dealers mouth.

I was in the same boat this past winter. I have owned a lot of bikes and always felt that the honda was the only way to go. However I hated the open front diff on my last one. It was disturbing to be stuck with a front tire on solid ground that would not turn. When I decided to buy a new one,... the locker in the front was mandatory for me.

So I went looking, riding and researching them as best I could. I ended up with the Yamaha Grizzly 450. It just had the most features for the money with a great reliability reputation to boot. While at the dealer I asked about various problems and recalls. The salesmen took me into the service area to see 4 660's that were in for routine maintaince. They were all owned by the same ranch corporaton. They ranged from 10,000 to 16,000 plus miles. I was very surprised to see the miles these bikes had. The service guy said these don't have that many miles, plenty come in with over 20,000 used by the farmers and ranchers here. He went on to say they abuse and overload them more then anyone would as a sportsman or hunter. Mostly because the employees using them don't care about them. Most of the employees use english as a second language, (temporary farm labor). They drive these all day every day for all kinds of chores, often pulling heavy trailers.

Anyway, I have no compliants with the one I bought, and it had very big shoes to fill following up my Honda 300 fourtrax. The Diff lock in 4X4 is simply spectacular, add in the low range and it's as good at climbing and slogging through crap that nothing but a tracked vehicle would surpass.

Some of the features that swayed me that the other mfgs could not compete with were: 12VDC outlet, full digital display, trip meter, hour meter, clock, etc, gas guage, 2WD 4WD Difflock, auto trans, argueably the best auto in the business too.

The weak links:
The tires,......way too small and thin, they simply suck. I swapped them out right away with same size Maxxis Bighorns. They are marked the same size but absolutely dwarf the factory tires. What a difference. In 2WD it will climb so well it will scare you.

The plastic skid plates and the lack of CV guards. I added aluminum Riccochet plates and CV guards for about a 150 bucks.

The rear suspension is too soft for farm work with the stock shocks/springs. With my 20 gallon sprayer on the rear rack the rear sags a bit. I've been told that swapping out the rear shocks with those from the 660 or the rhino will fix that and really stifen up the rear end. It's a hunting and utility machine, I'm not to worried about the high speed performance. I would prefer the heavier spring rate.

I've had it now about 5 months and worked it pretty hard. No problems so far, I've mowed 20 acres with a 4 foot wide brush cutter in 6 hours with temps over 100 deg. That cooling fan was running the whole time.

Folks get kinda emotional about the choices they make. Heck I don't care what anyone buys or uses. I'm just adding my opinion to the mix for you. It was a rather easy decision for me when I saw the amount of miles on several of these bikes at the dealer, and with the features. By the way mine was 5700 bucks tax and license out the door. I would not have been able to touch a Honda for that much and it had less features. I really wanted another honda but could simply not justify it compared to the Yamaha.

Let me be the first to dispute that statement.In my opinion,the hydrostatic transmission on the honda rubicon is smoothest automatic transmission available,and it has no belt to slip or break.

I've got no dog in the disput here. Just going by statistics. That belt cannot slip, and has sold many thousands of units without any failures. Smoother? maybe so I have no time on the Honda to have an opinion. More dependable..........I just don't see that based only on the industry statistics of sales. That info is available someplace on line, when I did my research on them I found it but cannot recal now, it's been too long, and I've slept since then.

It was an overwhelming statistic though. Further I would much rather replace a 20 dollar belt with 10 minutes worth of dissassembly then to have to remove the transmission and work on that complex device with the added expenses.

To suggest that the Yamaha belt will slip, or is otherwise a problem is not a very fair assemssment of the design. It's not at all like the polaris which does. The Yamaha belt would have some catastrophic situation causing it to slip or fail in any way. It's not slipping or it would not be rated to outlast the entire machine in its lifespan. The belt is a constant velocity gear belt. It's not on "V" pullys and stays tight as can be 100% of the time. I don't think you fully understand to way it works.

It is however a common misconception which I read plenty about before I bought mine. It's why I did the research to learn about it. All you have to see is the guys running the machine under water up to the handle bars with the Yamaha belt drive and it's not slipping even while under water under a heavy load of mud caked on the tires. I think the Polaris design has made all belt systems steriotypical now. Yamaha is nothing like the others. If you looked into it further as I did you will be surprised at the differences.

Actually,I have a great deal of experience with centrifugal belt drives,and I do fully understand how it works.Firstly,I am a mechanical technologist and power transmission was a large part of my training.Secondly,I hold a millwrights ticket,and have extensive experience with belt drives including infinite ratio belt drives as used on both snowmobiles and atvs.Thirdly,I raced competitively and spent many hours tuning and adjusting centrifugal belt drives such as those used on the yamaha and polaris atvs and snowmobiles.I have changed more drive belts,and serviced more centrifugal belt drives than most people will do in several lifetimes,so yes,I am very familiar with how they work.



The hydrostatic transmission used on the honda rubicon is one of the simplest and most reliable transmissions available.It is for this reason that both industrial and agricultural equipment use a lot of hydrostatic drives.The track record in industry,agricultural equipment and with the rubicon,has proven the reliability of the hydrostatic design many times over.Have you ever bothered to research the hondra hydrostatic drive yourself?
On the other hand,I have no use at all for the automotive style three speed automatic transmission used on the Rincon.

Well then....... there you have it right from a very experienced and knowledgable guy. I have nothing to gain from this thread, so go well and be happy!

I hear a lot of people complain about the differential lock or lack thereof, on the Honda's. Frankly, I don't see the big deal, i've been riding Honda's pretty much exclusively for about 18 years now and ever felt that i needed the diff lock. I don't ride a lot of the nasty mud and I don't get stuck that often, experience has taught me well over the years on how to read a creek, river or mudhole. Good tires make a huge difference as well, that coupled with experienced riding can make a huge difference. I like Honda's, always have and always will but there are a lot of very good machines out there, you just have to find the one's thats best for you.

Speaking only for myself, once you have used a Diff lock you will never want an open diff again. Especially in snow.

It's simply amazing, in operation. It's why a bobcat has diff lock to do what it does. Although it's skid steer, it still has all four wheels locked.

Now this can go the other way too, the Can Am has a diff lock that is simply the most dangerous design I've ever seen or driven. It requires some wheel spin to engage. The engagement can occur at any moment and with rather high RPM. It can and has nearly ripped the grips out of my hands when climbing a steep rutted road. So I see the bad in poor Diff lock designs as well. I much prefer to select when I want it and when I don't.

The Auto diff lock on the Can Am is as bad as not having it at all, actually worse as it can be dangerous in my opinion! Imagine climbing a steep hill with pretty good wheel spin and RPM, then the front locks and jerks the handle bars towards the newly found traction, your sideways in a heartbeat. I've done it more then once and it's a surprise out of nowhere everytime it happens. If the ATV starts or jumps up that sidehill when the front locks your in a rollover situation PDQ!

It took only a few rides before I was convinced that my skill set on that auto diff lock was nowhere near what was needed to ride one!

Apparently JJ should have said aside from the Rubicon????

Unless you've got a diff lock ya really don't know what your missing.Wouldn't want to be without it.

Y A M A H A - check out the '07 big bear 400 ! It's awsome.
I have an 05 big bear & really like this atv. It's not fast (50mph tops) but has a super low first gear that would pull a house of the foundation . about $5000.00 for the 07 model around here.

I am with mtnhntr on this one. Could have bought anything when I bought my last one. Visco lock, diff lock, super low, super super low, IFS, all that really doesn't mean chitt to me. I want it to start and run each and every time I push the little button. Be overloaded as much as 5 times the weight allowed on the racks. She will be able to rollover in a creek and be turned right side up, push the little button blow a little smoke and down the trail she goes. I have seen a lot of wheelers take a beating in Alaskas back country , from hunters to Gold miners and have yet to see one that will endure and perform with reliable results what the Hondas do. I dont have a front diff lock and have pulled lots of folks out of the muck, dragged a few wheelers from way out of the back country and have yet to take mine to a dealer for a repair. For this kind of wheeler i will always go Honda. But it is a lot of money to invest these days so a guy has to buy what a guy wants to buy, even if its all the bells and whistles he wants.

The last time I checked,the only hydrostatic tranny in a honda was the rubicon. The hydrostatic tranny is fine and great,until it [bleep] up and you have to pay for repairs. I've seen too many yamahas using a belt drive with over 20k miles on them.And original belt with no repairs to believe that the Hydrostatic tranny is the end all of trannies. Hell honda is using a modified prelude tranny in the rincon,so they must even have reservations on the greatness of the hydrostatic tranny.. Hondas electronic shift is another area that see's failure with regularity.The last I heard from my honda dealer,a minor repair to the electronic shift is easily $800. I can rebuild a complete CVT for a fraction of that with a new belt.

I bought a first year rubicon to try out the hydrostatic tranny.It worked as well as any belt drive I've owned. It had no ground clearance,which is typical of honda. It rode rough as hell which is what swingarms do and why nobody wants them anymore,And the drum brakes were dogsh!t just like all drum brakes are.A couple creek crossings and brakes are a thing of the past.The 4wd was typical of a nonlocking diff. When you need it the wheel in the air is spinning and you're still stuck. I've been in too many situations where the front locker on a yamaha made all the differance in the world.

My father in law owns this particular rubicon now and I'm glad I sold it. He putts around on logging roads at 5mph and pounds the [bleep] out of his kidneys and then complains all night about old age. He's also sank over 600 dollars into the electronic shifter also. The dealer knew exactly what was wrong he'd already replaced a couple dozen that year.All on an atv that was never abused and always garaged.


Honda has sat on their nuts for so long and allowed other manufacturers to bring out better designs that the consumer actually wants,they aren't even competitive anymore.Durability isn't even their strong point anymore,other manufactureres have matched that also.

Can Am is typical bombardier/sled mentality. Put the biggest baddest motor in it and the hell with anything else like durability. I've ridden the 800 a number of times,since a friend owns one. It will pull a wheelie like a dirt bike. But the SOB has been in the shop 3 times in the last thousand miles. Then you have one of the worst frame designs in the industry. All for around $10,500 american,plus another $350 for a ricochet skid on it.


As for tires,Maxxis bighorns are in a league of their own.

The 400 at also uses a hydrostatic transmission.



My Rubicon is a 2002,and I have yet to experience any problems.



The hydrostatic transmission used on the Rubicon will handle the rubicons 500cc engine just fine,but it can slip if much more power is applied.For that reason,honda uses a different transmission in the rincon.



Perhaps in the desert terrain that they are designed for,but nobody has much luck with them in the muskeg that we have where I live.Mud Bugs,Gators,or Mudrunners all do a much better job in the soft deep stuff.

http://www.maxxis.com/products/automotive/news_article.asp?id=236

The hydrostatic transmission used on the Rubicon will handle the rubicons 500cc engine just fine,but it can slip if much more power is applied.For that reason,honda uses a different transmission in the rincon.



Perhaps in the desert terrain that they are designed for,but nobody has much luck with them in the muskeg that we have where I live.Mud Bugs,Gators,or Mudrunners all do a much better job in the soft deep stuff.

http://www.maxxis.com/products/automotive/news_article.asp?id=236


[/quote]



There again if the hydrostatic tranny was all its made out to be by the consumer. Honda would have used it in their flagship,the rincon. If CAT can use a hydrostatic tranny with that level of horsepower,honda could sure as hell use one also regardless of displacement.Especially considering that honda ran a hydrostatic tranny in one of their CR's during an indoor supercross event in japan.It happened about a year before the rubicon was introduced. The CR was kicking out 3x more ponies then any atv they make and did just fine. Hydrostatic trannies are exspensive to manufacture and costly to repair.


On the subject of maxxis bighorns. I run probably 8 months out of the year in mud and snow.Two months after that waiting for everything to finally dry out which means 90% mud riding and the final 2 months riding in a mixture of gravel,granite and wet conditions.I find it hard to believe that you've ever tried bighorns and came to the conclusion that they are desert tires.

I've used the mudbugs exstensively and wore them out quickly because of the softer compounds used. Maxxis introduced the radial in the bighorns,with a tougher compound,plus the wider footprint caused by a radial. And they go anywhere. I called maxxis and talked to a tech about the desert bullsh!t and he said it was purely a marketing stance. They have Zillas and mudbugs for what they call soft terrain and bighorns for all terrain.The radial introduced in the new mudbugs could be interesting,the compounds will still be soft and wear fast.

As with any 4X4 debate, folks base everything they know on what they have. A desert racer is not good in snow, a rock climber is not good in Desert racing. High ground clearnce used for snow and mud has no benifit in rock climbing, or desert racing.

All of these are 4x4 "all terrain" designs. However most are built specific to an application of habitat that people live in or work with. For that reason deep cleated mud tires are far more a specific application then the more general designs like a Bighorn. I agree 100% that the deep cleated chevron design is far better in slogging through mud. But it's going to be less then desireable and probably uncomfortable in many others.

I'm not fortunate enough to have a single habitat or limited focus where I use mine. I will run into about everything you can use an ATV in. For that reason I chose the bighorns. Everyone has their own interests in bits and pieces for the ATV, jeep, gun, boat, archery etc etc. We all also have an opinion, this is just mine.

I don't think I've ever heard a stronger more wide spread positive opinion on any product as I have with the Bighorn ATV tires. To this point, I have never heard anyone use them on an ATV that has not been absolutely satisfied with them, for true "All Terrian" use. Not speaking just specific mud applications.

They probably change the way an ATV works by a greater margin then anything else that you can do to one. It's almost like a tracked vehicle with the front diff locked.

I used these on my Rokon Trail breaker as well. Same results, spectacular performance and they changed the way that machine worked as well.

For a true all Terrain use where great performance is possible in every sitaution I just don't see anything even close to these. Go to any ATV forum and read a review, or read the posts from people using them. These tires must the best all around ATV tire made today.

In case you hadn't noticed the rubicon and rincon are very different quads made for very different uses.The rincon is made for trail riding and is much more sporty,while the rubicon was designed as a workhorse.The hydrostatic transmission is much more suited for the workhorse role as further supported by CAT using them.To make a hydrostatic transmission to handle the extra power of the rincon,it would have to be bigger and heavier,which is not desirable on a sporty machine like the rincon.The rincon also has independent suspension which rides smoother,but is not as stable when carrying heavy loads.Try side hilling with a quad with independent suspension with a heavy load on the racks,and then do the same with a solid axle quad and you will see the difference in stability.You can have the best ride,or the most stability with a heavy load,but not both at the same time.



Have you ever ridden in muskeg?Do you even know what it is?To obtain traction in muskeg,you need long deep lugs like the mudbugs and gators provide.The more knobby tread patterns like the bighorn has,aren't much better in muskeg than factory tires.

This is a great thread .

I have owned a lot of toys in my life from street bikes to m/x bikes and one three wheeler.-You can get a 'bad' one w/ any manufacturer -the honda 200x three wheeler i had blew-up for no reason.Never sunk or anything like that- just started smoking like a freight train within 4 months ,used more oil than gas.

I had a new yamaha fz 1000r spin a rod bearing twice.

A friend of mine had a new [20ish K miles] toyota 4x4 w/a 22r motor blow up driving down the highway?!

I use to own a jet-ski rental business on the mississippi coast -if the rental machine didn't say yamaha on the side -keep a tool kit close by.

Anything w/ bombardier on the side --forget about it running more than a week w/out some major repair work.
NEVER EXPECT it to start -and you won't be let down ....

I'm going to give the yamaha 4x4's w/locking diff's a look -good info JJ-.
Just throwing this out there -I use to rent tractors to box blade yards and get driveways ready to pour.The rental place initially had 2 -2wd tractors then got a 4x4 w/locking diff -wow what a difference.
I bought a kubota 4x4 26hp model b/c you could push the throttle wide open and drag a huge load of dirt -6' box scaper- any wheel spin -bump the diff lock w/your heel and keep on truckin.

Also had a 4x4 toyo truck basic limited slip stock truck -got stuck very easily compared to a friends w/ lockers installed.
That truck [friends] went through and up places my truck couldn't dream of b/c of the locked axles -so i've seen what locking diffs on several applications will do.

In my mind being able to "ease" through a rough section of ground rather than have to -NAW- your way through would fit my style b/c easing through w/the axles locked would be much more quiet and safe.<-Talking about hunting.

Here's something i've pondered -i mostly predator hunt so hauling a huge elk out of the wilderness doesn't apply to me much.
A 2wd honda ex250 weighs 360lbs the new 420cc rancher 4x4 weighs 560lbs.
It makes me wonder if the little 250 wouldn't go about as well as the big 420 especially if you put a top knotch set of tires on the 250?
I think a man would be able to push a 360lb machine somewhat but a 560lb -??
ok ramble over-Mike

My first quad was a two wheel drive,but I soon learned that for deep mud,snow,and especially muskeg,a 4x4 is far superior.As far as pushing a quad,it doesn't work very well in any kind of mud or muskeg.Get a good 2000lb or 2500lb winch and you will be much happier.

Makes sense stub -my pondering goes against my preferred way of easing through a spot.

Tell me about quads and snow...

JJ says the locked axle makes a big difference -would all wheels pulling all the time outperform a limited slip type set-up by a considerable amount?
Also JJHack -you might make your grizzly ride a little too stiff when not loaded by changing the rear shocks out -just a thought.
Have you jacked up your pre-load?

get a HONDA and dont look back!

+1 except you need to slap some ITP MudLites on it and a Warn 2500 it'll getr done no questions asked!

Good Mud Tires are an absolute + to riding pretty much anywhere in Alaska, never heard of Big Horns but ITP MudLites and 589's are pretty popular up here, and I am gonna take a little guess and say that we probably just a hair harder on 4 wheelers than most guys in most states, its just a hunch!

Where snow is concerned,tires are very important.I find the gators,mudrunners and mud bugs do very well.In fact they do well in almost all conditions from mud to muskeg to drier dirt.Locking differentials do help with traction on snow and ice,but you need to unlock them to turn sharp or the quad tries to go straight instead of turning.I have ridden my Rubicon in over a foot of snow with 26" gators and I had no problems keeping up with the yamaha or polaris machines.I have towed many elk and moose across snow covered fields or trails with no problems.For use on steep icy hills,or very deep snow,chains provide by far the best traction whether you have a differential lock or not.I am not saying that a locking differential is not an advantage,because I would like to have one on my own machine,however,I have gotten by without one due to having good tires,and picking my trails more carefully.However,I am so pleased with my rubicon that I am not prepared to give up the hydrostatic transmission,and the incredible reliability that my quad has provided, just to have a locking differential.

Well said stubble and I am with you 100%, I am not sold on the reliability of anything except for Hondas, everything else made I have seen towed or towed myself. Like you in Alberta I imagine, we live on our machines and we ride them in terrain thats unimaginable sometimes just getting from point a to point b. Most of the time when they are really worked theres no trail at all, except for the one your laying thanks to a Stihl. Will never give up the reliability points my Hondas have earned for a locking , IFS anything. This is just my opinion, but its also my azz thats 20-30 miles in no mans land if the SOB wont start or run, thats where I base my loyalty.

It appears we agree on chainsaws as well.I use a Stihl 250 myself.

Ol Mike, My Honda 300 Fourtrax had a limited slip. It was not acceptable in snow and while having one front in the air and one on solid ground. that situation leaves you with 2WD The front in the air is spinning the one on hard ground is not moving and there you sit. This simply cannot happen with a front difflock. Sure playing with the front brake to prelaod the limited slip clutch sometimes works but not with enough frequency to claim it actually works. I think of the 100's of times this has happened I made the front lock up for a moment a couple times. Then the instant it starts to spin the brake stops the rotation, or you loosen the brake and the tire in the air spins again!


I've just ordered a set of 100lb springs which I will swap out when they get here. They are suppose to change the rear end to the same stiffness as a solid axle, yet it's still and IFS. I cannot understand why they built this work machine with soft "high speed" suspension. My guess is that is the way people want it. I prefer it to have a greater load capacity. Fortunately, the options are there to have either one.

I look forward to the progressive spring rate and additional 100lb capacity, without losing the IFS rear and all that Ground clearance.

You bring up a very interesting point JJHACK, it seems to me that at some point they decided that even a utility bike needs to ride like a highway bike. Some years ago we killed a couple moose in a valley that had no access and you had to cover about 3 miles of high ridge Muskeg to get back to the valley that camp was in. A buddy had a Polaris with IFS and it was soo funny watching him come across that ridge with LOTS of moose meat on his racks. He kept having to stop and let the blood flow back out of his arms, he looked like Popeye from all the vertical up and down wrestling he was doing with the machine. I do see the advantages of the IFS but it some places it'll kill you if its too soft. The other 2 Hondas just kinda bounced right over the ridge with the solid rear axle and no fusses.

The 300 had the old friction plate type limited slip.The old style weren't all that bad when they were new,but after some usage causing wear on the clutches,they became virtually useless.Several years ago,honda replaced this limited slip with a new type that works much better and does not fade away with usage like the old type.

[quote=stubblejumper]Where snow is concerned,tires are very important.


Actually in snow, tires are secondary to ground clearance. The stock dunflops usually do terrific,because of good wheel speed due to the lightness of 2 or 4 ply tires.Radials are nice since you can run around 3 lbs of pressure and ride on top of the crust.Wider tires also play a role. I run 25-12-12 mudlites on a solid axle 1999 grizzly with ,and its made a big differance in snow. Lockers play a major role and often allow you to get out stuff that you got stuck in with limited slip. The majority of the time you high center long before you run out of traction.You high center the quickest with solid axles like the rubicon.Irs axles continue to extend when high centered. This will either lead to you getting enough traction to move,or burying deeper. The fact that you don't know this stubblejumper, leads me to believe you don't have half the experience you claim to have.

I've read a number of your posts stubble,pertaining to muskeg and how tough it is.I've had the oppurtunity to ride muskeg on two seperate hunts. One lasted 7 days,the other was a 10 day hunt. The outfitter had 300cc fourtrax with bearclaws and mudbugs. It was about like snow,traction was seldom an issue,but ground clearance played a major role. He even had a grizzly with extended A arms and mudzillas. His conclusion was the extra ground clearance played more of a role then tire choice.



(Locking differentials do help with traction on snow and ice,but you need to unlock them to turn sharp or the quad tries to go straight instead of turning.)


There again you don't have a clue what you're talking about stubble. In ice and snow a locker turns the easiest.On dry ground it can be tough,but nothing a grown man or women can't handle. Add power steering like the 700 grizzly and of which I own and you now have a fully locked atv that turns like a limited slip. In limited slip mode with power steering you have steering like a 2wd quad. I don't have to guess about this since I also own a 660 grizzly without power steering,that fully locks.








(I have ridden my Rubicon in over a foot of snow with 26" gators and I had no problems keeping up with the yamaha or polaris machines.)


I wouldn't expect you to have a problem with a limited slip in a foot of snow. Since you're still sinking to solid ground.

Try the same ride in 2 to 3 foot of spring snow,with a base made of ice and slush.It will quickly get old on a solid axle limited slip atv. Been there done it.

Gators run small for stated size,so your 26's are closer to true 25 inch bighorns.


Stubble,you also mentioned that sidehilling is more difficult and more unstable with irs then with a solid axle swing arm. There again you should actually try what you claim, rather then simply speculate. I currently own a solid axle 99 grizzly and have owned and still use a rubicon. The rubicon is more stable then the 99 grizzly,but the Irs on my 2005 grizzly and 07 grizzly are every bit as stable as the rubicon all with elk quarters on them. Things are even more stable on a polaris with IRS,they really are a platform.

I don't care what tires you have on your quad,a quad will break through almost any snow crust.



So if traction was not important in muskeg,why did the outfitter bother to waste money on Mudbugs?If ground clearance was so important,why would an outfitter whose lively hood depends on his quads being able to travel over muskeg use the Honda 300 which has very little ground clearance?Did he choose his quads and tires because he knows what works in muskeg,or did a person with so much experience riding muskeg make poor quad and tire choices?



I have ridden several machines with detroit lockers installed,and while they do go through mud or snow better,they tend to want to go straight ahead,especially on ice.



If that was the case,why does the outfitter you refer to use the honda 300 with it's solid rear axle?In fact why do the vast majority of outfitters use solid axle quads like the smaller hondas or the yamaha big bear.As for the polaris,I don't know of a single outfitter that uses polaris quads.You seem to think that you have all the answers so tell me why the outfitters do not use polaris quads.Almost every outfitter,and almost every seismic company and forestry crew that I have seen, use either the smaller displacement honda or yamaha quads with solid axles.Why do you suppose that is?

I'd say outftters don't use polaris,because they're undependable pieces of [bleep].The same reason I don't own a polaris. That still doesn't change the fact that polaris IRS is stable as any solid axle quad.Or the fact that their all wheel drive is good.

As for honda 300's being used.The outfitter used them because they were cheap to buy,fuel economy was good and the 300 is the pinnacle of durability.Honda will never make another atv as durable as the 300.There's nothing on one to go wrong,that usually isn't self inflicted by the user. No electronic shift.Always in 4wd. No clearance. He also used tow ropes real well.

Considering that mudbugs can be picked up as cheap as any after market tire out there due to popularity.Six ply is also more durable.They also came with the used grizzly.Running them on a grizzly wasn't much of a statement.Running after market A arms for clearance was a statement,and using the grizzly to tow out the 300's with regularity also was a statement. The 300's also had mudbugs on them,but no ground clearance.He ran the bearclaws because they were even cheaper then mudbugs and wore better.Which has also been my experience with bear claws.


I'd say the majority of crews use small displacement quads with solid axles.Because of fuel economy.They're cheaper to buy and the 300 fourtrax and 350 big bear being entry level only come with solid axles.Add to this the guy doing the purchasing is probably ignorant like you stubble and believes that solid axles are the only thing out there with durability. Remoteness also tends to mean air lifted equipment.Meaning smaller is better.Everything costs more so entry level quads mean affordable.


The forestry crews around here use almost all polaris sleds and atv's with a smattering of old 300 hondas and the occasional XR dirt bike.

On the subject of tires breaking through snow crust. Its a matter of how much you sink. With a deflated radial or 25-12-12's,the sinking is a hell of alot less and you do tend to ride up on the snow crust. There again I don't have to guess,I've actually used the above mentioned equipment and seen the actual results..

I agree with you stubble on the lockers. They do tend to take you straight through things that get you stuck with a limited slip.

There are two more very important reasons that outfitters and crews use the small displacement machines with solid axles.The first being that independent suspension machines lose ground clearance because the suspension sags as they are loaded,while solid axle machines do not suffer from this problem.Throw one quarter of moose on each rack and then see how much ground clearance the quad with independent rear suspension has left.Secondly,and most importantly,the lighter the better in muskeg.A light machine like the 300 honda with wide tires will float over a lot of muskeg without sinking nearly as much as the heavier machines.Therefore they get stuck less,provided the rider knows how to ride on muskeg.Most people that get stuck in muskeg don't have enough experience to know how to ride on it.They usually are too harsh on the throttle and spin out and sink in the muskeg.I guess that is why the outfitter spent so much time pulling you out.The weight issue is just one more reason the porky polaris quads don't do well in muskeg.

An Irs quad isn't going to lose ground clearance due to the irs itself. You will bottom out the travel.Polaris Irs will allow the skid plate to extend slightly bellow level when overloaded.Polaris is the only one I've seen this on. The rims aren't going to mysteriously shrink on an IRS quad and give less height. Yamaha uses a torsion bar of sorts in its IRS and it greatly limits the travel.I can take a set of channel locks or the actual suspension tool and stiffen the suspension on a grizzly to the point that its as miserable to ride as a rubicon or other straight axle.

I've placed half an elk on each rack before,which is equal to a quarter of moose. I've also had a quarter of buffalo on each rack which is more then a moose quarter,on an IRS grizzly and I still had as much ground clearance as usual.Of course the tires were compressed and bulged more,but that happens with a solid axle also when grossly overloaded.

The IRS ground clearance myth was propagated back when polaris was the only atv with long travel IRS suspension.And it was always the guy on a straight axle quad who'd never even seen an IRS overloaded.It was portrayed as something really scarey and many people had sleepless nights over it.Since then everybody is running IRS and doing just fine.

Running mudbugs on a beat to hell worn out 300,didn't leave much throttle, so spinning out wasn't an occurance. High centering was though. For a self proclaiming expert on muskeg. Stubble you seem to be lacking in real knowledge,but don't let that hold you back from telling us all about it..

As stated that 300 was as bullet proof a machine as has ever been built. I owned one, and my best friend still has it. I wish there was an odometer, or hour meter on it because it would tell an amazing story about the dependability of that machine.

The functionality of that machine compared to the Grizzly 450 I now have is not comparable. The IRS, low range, auto trans, and Diff lock put this Grizzly in a whole nother league! I use a crop sprayer on my Grizzly which is a hella heavy weight with that big tank on my rear rack. The suspension will sag a bit, but at no time does it get lower then the 300 is when empty.

The fix for this is very easy. Highlifter makes replacement springs that add 100 pounds to the carry capacity. It will raise the rear end between half and one inch when unloaded. On the low setting for the spring preload it's a smooth ride which does not change the feel of the machine from stock. On the high setting it changes the rear end to the stiffnessand stability of a solid axle. Granted this does not come from Yamaha this way, which is should. But it does give you back the utility function of your Utility ATV.

I have to mow quite a bit of acreage on side hills with my tow behind brush mower. At first it was a challange to drive those sidehills with the IRS, now after some time doing it, I have no concern what ever. It's a skill set, not a machine limitation.

One thing that the Grizzly has proven to me with the Auto Trans is the far superios ability to climb hills. No more issues with climbing with silly high rpms only to run out of seam half way up and spin out or stall in second gear. With the diff lock and auto shift, this Grizz will out climb the 300 honda every single time.

It's difficult to compare the two as they are not competitors, not even close. However in 1995 when I bought the Honda, it was about 5k, this year when I bought the Yamaha I paid less then 6K

For under 1000 bucks difference the features and functionality are night and day. The Yamaha has a fuel guage, trip and hour meters, 12volt outlet, all disc brakes, floorplates, etc etc.

After owning that honda and seeing what was done with it never missing a beat a single time, never dissapointing me with breakage, or starting. I was a Honda man through and through. I could not buy a Honda with the features this grizzly has for any amount of money. They simply don't make one! I could only get a honda with rather basic limited features, and it was about 2000 bucks more money.

Since I have a Yamaha outboard, again 30% less then the equal Honda 4 stroke and it has run perfectly for all the years I've owned it, just like the Honda 300 did. I chose the Yamaha Grizz as it's durability is on par with all the other big makers of ATV's. I agree that in the late 80's and early 90's Honda had a lock on the durability reputation. That however has long since been equalized with several other machines on the market.

With that now balanced, it's about value for the dollar to me. And in that respect, I have more loyalty to my money, then I do to any specific brand.

The ES shifting system on both our Honda's is awesome, we have never had a problem with it....ever. As far as tires go, go to any site, say High Lifter and see what tires are being used by hard core atv users, they won't be Maxxis Big Horns, this I can guarantee. I've been using ITP Mudlites for the last 2 years and simply love those tires. I got stuck bad this past weekend in water and mud that was over my waders, mud was like clay and very heavy. I had to get winched out but that was my fault, I should have got off the bike and walked it across that mudhole so that was a lesson learned. The Bighorns might be a great tire down in the lower 48 but up here, you need something with more bite. AkCub is right, 589's, Mudlites, Gators, and Mudbugs rule up here. The Honda 300 Fourtrax is one mean little rig and Honda too a small step back when they stopped making them along with the 450 Foreman.

Go to highlifter and ask them about your mudlites. You'll hear what [bleep] they are and how fast they wear. Even though mudlites have been using the same compound as the bulletproof 589's that everyone brags on.

Highlifter is a waste of time. A bunch of 16 year olds telling fairytales about dads atv.

Who ever said bighorns were mud tires?

One thing you will see on highlifter,is guys trying get as much ground clearance on an atv as possible. But according to stubble that isn't needed. Just a rubicon with mudbugs and a limited slip diff.And you've got an atv that borders on hover craft like abilities.

Nobody said Bighorn tires were mud tires but a few here have said they work great on everything, which includes mud. I can guarantee you my Mudlites will work better in mud and muskeg than those Bighorns and thats what i'm saying. So your also saying that the suspension on an IRS machine will not lose ground clearance when loaded down but I have to differ on that one. I've seen it first hand with bikes loaded with moose quarters and gear. Use what you want but don't give people [bleep] because they ride something different than you. I like my Honda because it does everything i need it to do and it does it well. I don't want more junk on my machine, just something else that could break and leave me stranded.

I did some rooting around on atv forum and a couple of others that came up on google.

MAN are there some differing opinions !!

Some people swear by the big artic cat -some polaris .

Anyway no one can tell me the jap machines aren't good personally i'd trust a honda yamaha kawasaki suzuki because they been in the game a long time !

Different opinions here than most other forums -but many of the people stating opinions were from regions like georgia -kansas etc. .
-Guys in the alaska and canadian wilderness mud -snow -super cold remote places will be the ones who shape my opinion.
Of coarse some down here in the lower 48 who mows sprays ranchs guides knows quads to.

There is a lack of small/midsize quads w/4x4 drive.
I want durability -longrange capability -and nimble.

You guys throw out some mileage/range numbers your quads will go on a full tank under hunting conditions if you will.Thanks Mike

Twist things as you like.I never said that ground clearance or a locking differential wasn't a good thing.What I did say is that tires can make a huge difference,and that a solid rear axle does have advantages even though it does not ride as smoothly.I also stated that lighter weight is a big advantage in muskeg.The funny thing is that the fellows that share my opinions are from Alaska,where the riding conditions are similar to my own.But considering that you have ridden in muskeg twice,you obviously know better.

"I can guarantee you my Mudlites will work better in mud and muskeg than those Bighorns and thats what I'm saying. So your also saying that the suspension on an IRS machine will not lose ground clearance when loaded down but I have to differ on that one. I've seen it first hand with bikes loaded with moose quarters and gear."

And you're basing your guarantee on the mudlites and bighorns on what. On what you've heard? I highly doubt you've used bighorns.

Mudlites are considered by the majority of serious mud riders,as being only slightly better then factory tires. In fact the price tag is what sells them. I picked up some off ebay for $45 a tire new. I'd venture to bet thats why you bought them.Instead of mudbugs.


No an IRS won't lose anymore ground clearance when overloaded,then that of a solid axle.There again more bullsh!t about IRS being spewed as truth.

If we followed the wisdom of you and stubble when it comes to independant suspension. We'd also be able to safely assume that the front of your hondas which are independant,(IFS)lose all kinds of clearance when loaded down and turn into skidder blades.While the rear solid axle doesn't lose anything. Is that what happens to a honda?