Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa What about the 45/70 in Africa

Jorge,
The Army did in fact adopt several different lever action rifles at various times.You may remember that famous quote "That damned Yankee rifle you can load on Sunday and shoot all week."
The reasons given at various times for avoiding adoption by the ordnance boards were,as you mentioned,a fear that there would be too much wasted ammunition,adding headaches to the supply train because there were already such an enormous number of different single shots in inventory which used different parts,and the fact that they were more expensive than the single shots.
These attitudes were so strong that Trapdoor Springfields were used more heavily in the Spanish American war in 1898,than the Kraggs which were already standard for six or more years at that time.Guard units were still armed,in many instances ,with Trapdoors well into WWI,when the 1903 Springfield had supposedly been service standard for 15 years.
Reliability was not apparently an issue with Spencers or Henrys winding up on the front lines for certain units,and both of those were many times pointed to as having provided The Union with the margin of victory in a number of specific engagements.
The main reason that they were not generally adopted had more to do with the inertia of ordanance people who were too wrapped up in the past,and unwilling to engage in the future.

Good post Steve and I can't say I disagree totally, but Henrys WERE woefully unreliable on three distict issues. First, the underside of the reloading tube was open, allowing debris to cause stoppages of the srping loader as well as the knob itself always got in the way of your hand if you weren't careful. Second, the open breech on top also caused debris and jamming issues, as well as the "artillery style" loading mechanism,ostensibly a brass block with a groove that "served up" the cartridge to the breech so the bolt could close it.

These problems were sequentially fixed in the 1866 and 1873, but the breech still remained unable to cope with higher pressure and bigger cartridges until the 1886 and by then, the writing was on the wall with the 1888 Mauser and French Lebel and of course then when the Spitzer bullet designs appeared and smokeless, the levers were just left behind. Not even the Marlin in 1895 could compete with that. But yes inertia as you say did play a part initially in the 1860s but by the 90s, military arms were rapidly changing, like the Mauser 88, 92 & 98 respectively and in our country the 30/40 Krag-Jorgensen (1892, didn't last long either.

Today, no doubt pumkin rollers like the 45/70 have achieved a new lease on life with newer powders and even rubber nosed spitzers, but is till does not answer my original query that if the 45/70 and levers were up to task, they would see wider use in africa when clearly they do not. Cheers, jorge

BrentD,

I have shot buff with .458" solids at 2050fps that did not exit on top down insurance shots through the spine, and once, as a bull was falling toward me, about 4" away from the spine angling for the opposite side of the bottom of the chest cavity. What rational explanation makes you believe that a bullet, even 40grs heavier, traveling 700fps slower would make an exit? Even if it is a flat point?

I have shot buff front on with the same bullet and velocity and not had an exit.

I have shot buff in the stern or hard quartering away with 500gr solids at 2135fps and they have not exited - though they made it to the vitals.

There is no magic in a slow moving bullet, even a flat nose, especially when the bullets integrity is a question. Anyone who has shot a buff with a 500gr or 550gr Woodleigh solid has shot a buff with a slow moving, heavy .458" bullet - its just that the bullet penetrated quite a bit before it became a slow moving heavy .458" bullet.

I'll repeat again:
Two similar bullets leave two rifles at different speeds. They impact a cape buffalo in identical shots. The faster one penetrates until it has slowed to the impact speed of the slower bullet and then it penetrates the same distance as the slower bullet.

What could be more utterly evident?

And Jorge's comments regarding the complete lack of any 45/70 following amongst those who depend on reliable performance on DG highlights the 45/70's marginal or less performance.

These 45/70 flare-ups all come down to "If you pay for me to go shoot a cape buffalo with a 45/70, then I'll go do it." I got news for you - if someone would pay for me to go shoot a cape buffalo with a 45/70, I would do it too. For $10,000 or so, I'd take the risks and enjoy the hell out of myself tracking and stalking, waiting for that elusive perfect shot opportunity. But if it's my money, to hell with the 45/70 and to hell with the risks, I'll bring a proven adequate DG rifle and cartridge.

JPK

I'd hate to see someone get into trouble over some romantic theory that became, for all intents and purposes, obsolecent with the advent of smokeless power..........

AD

AD, it became obsolete for you. Sadly, I might add.

Guys, have fun with your toys. But please try to resist raining on everyone else's parade, particularly when you haven't used such that sort of toy yourself.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering if you turned yourself in Allen? certainly the 300 was not legal...

Brent

Jorge,
I'm sure there are many reasons why lever action rifles and the 45/70 were never popular in Africa.Not the least of them,by any means was perceived effectiveness.
It is only in the last 30 years or so that the 45/70 could be loaded to the levels that it can achieve now.However,based on your own post,it is now capable of pretty much the same ballistics as the 45/400 or the .404 Jeffreys,which many have considered eminently suitable.If not in a lever action,and there are many who have claimed they can achieve the requisite velocities in a leveraction,those velocities can not only be equalled but exceeded in a modern bolt gun or single shot,and I would assume a properly set up double if one were to decide to make one.
Aside from that,there is the old "not invented here syndrome."Almost all the original African hunters were Europeans,many of whom were from the "upper classes" who in the victorian age looked on Americans and things American with a rather juandiced view.They also had a lot to say about what could and would be imported into their colonies.
As far as the mechanical problems associated with the Henry rifles are concerned,they are really no different from the types of problems the military has faced with all kinds of equipment,especially rifles,over the years.You may remember that many an Indian War trooper lost his life when trap door Springfields tore the heads off rolled copper cartridge cases,leaving the body of the case lodged in the chamber,and effectively turning the firearm into a nine pound club.
And in our lifetime there is the case of similar problems with the M16 in Vietnam,though for different reasons.Those two firearms,having the backing and committment of the ordnance people (which the lever guns did not) went on to have the longest active service lives of all US martial Rifles.Also it should be noted that there were a number of other lever action rifles available at that time,all suffered from the same lack of having a "champion" within the ordnance boards and though the designs themselves had much to recommend them,the designers mostly lacked the capitol,both financially and politically to gain access to the inner circles that controlled such things.
I know it may seem that I'm picking a dog in this fight,but I'm really not.Look at the post I started this thread with.I have some real questions in my mind,and I'm trying to get a clear picture of the real reasons behind what exists today.
For the record,I'm leaving for Tanzania in less than three weeks with a CZ 550 Safari Magnum express in .458 Winchester Magnum.I am taking it largely based on a series of PMs and a couple of extended phone calls I had with you about ten months ago.
Much of the reasoning and experience I have seen posted on this thread,for both sides of the argument ,seems to carry validity and goes pretty well to answeing my questions.Unfortunately , quite a bit of it falls in the category of "because I said so" which doesn't carry a whole lot of weight in either direction.

I remember the phone calls. Can you show me the ballistics to comapre the 450/400 and the 45/70 in terms of Sectional Density velocity? If I remember correctly, the 450/400 400gr bullet has an SD of 330 and a 400gr 45/70 has somewhat less SD so there's a disparity. Can a 500gr 45/70 be driven SAFELY to 2150 plus in a lever or any action?

I don't think the M-16 brings relevance to this argument. yes it was unreliable when it first came out but it quickly became very reliable although it's small projectile is still disliked by our men afield.

As to the lack of popularit of the 45/70 & lever in Africa it's simple: It doesn't work. I think JPK's postulate of similar bullets of the same caliber at different velocities pretty much put pay to that issue. It's obvious that people believe what the want to believe and will not allow facts to get in the way. Good luck in Africa and your 458 Will be great! jorge

Jorge,
Your assumption that that particular bullet shape must be used is just that,an assumption.Take a look at some of the penetration documentation on the Garrett sight.There's quite a bit.Pretty much any bullet in .458 can be loaded in a 45/70.I'm not saying they will all work magnificently well,but there is an ever growing body of evidence that many will work magnificently well.I think that many people involved with "African" rifles and cartridges are a bit too caught up in romance and tradition,and a bit too dismissive of alternatives,based on much less knowledge and much more intuition than they care to admit ,even to themselves.
Granted , I can't speak from an enormous backlog of personal experience in either direction.However , not much learning occurs in a closed mind.I don't really know,but I know that I don't know,and all I'm trying to do here is learn.

Jorge,
The reason I brought up the problems with the trap door and the M16 was to emphasize that the problems with the Henry were really not much different.If the Henry had been adopted,I am confident that the problems with the Henry would have been rectified,just as they were with the other two.

Steve: the data on the Garrett site regarding penetration is very biased to show penetration of their product. There was an extensive discussion on this over on AR a while back and it definetly showed the data was flawed. Bottom line there is you can't SAFELY push a 500gr bullet out of a lever at 2100 plus and once you fall below 1900 penetration really suffers.

Re-read JPK's posts they are very good, a lot better than I could explain. As far as the "romantic" stuff, sure there are many of us like that, but gents like Allen Day with extensive african experience have no use for the romantic stuff and use only the very modern stuff as do I & others to a great extent. Sectional density is what it as and so is velocity and there's no getting around that.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree but here's my bottom line: The 45/70 is an obsolete cartridge that under the right conditions can and has taken all the world's game and so have lever actions but in that regard so have black powder muzzle loaders and even spears (see the video above) and it STILL does not sell in africa. So if anyone wants to do it go for it. Pesonally I think it's a ridiculous notion for DG.

But I have to ask, why aren't you taking a 45/70 with you to africa, even as a backup rifle? Again good luck on your hunt. jorge

could be the $200/rifle permit no need to have 2 rifles pushing the same bullet at 2100fps. Buy a box of 450gr TSX .458 and load them in either the 458WM, 458Lott or the 45-70 push them with H4895 to 2100fps and they do exactly the same thing....so easy a cave man or wannabe could understand it!

Jorge,
As I said,I don't really have a dog in this fight.I'm mostly playing The Devil's Advocate,trying to learn something.If I could afford it, I might just try a 45/70 safari,though I'm not sure I'm totally convinced yet.Not so sure I'm totally convinced against it either.
As far as back ups are concerned,I have a .300 Win mag,.35 Whelen.,350 Rem. Mag,and 9.3x62 .....and I'm not taking any of those as back up either.I am taking two Leupold 1-4x20 scopes in identical Warne quick detatchable mounts though.Both sighted in for Barnes TSX 450s.

Steve1

You write:
"I think that many people involved with "African" rifles and cartridges are a bit too caught up in romance and tradition,and a bit too dismissive of alternatives,based on much less knowledge and much more intuition than they care to admit ,even to themselves."

The entire situation is actually the reverse of that you descibe. While few individuals may possess enough real experience with enough different rifles and bullets and cartridges to be able to give advice "you can take to the bank", those who do (or did for those who have departed) advocate similar performance bechmarks. Interestingly and importantly, those benchmarks also mirror the "natural selection" of a couple of centuries of DG hunting by thousands of different hunters from the evolution of the 4 bores and exploding shells to todays DG rifles. And this evolution is relfected in the minimum calibre and energy laws in effect today.

On the topic of the 45/70 vs the 450/400 or 404, its not bullet shape that Jorge is writing is the issue, it is sectional density, momentum, energy per unit of bullet frontal area. This relationship has a tremendous influence on a solid bullet's abitily to penetrate real game animals - not the artificial mediums that others would have you believe are relavent. This relationship is inescabable. It is why Bell was able to kill elephants with a 6.5 and 7mm, why a .308" solid can do the same.

The sectional density for the 400gr .458" bullet is .272. That is below the tried and proven ~.300 minimum that evolved over more than a century. 450/400's came in two (really more but the majority fall here) bullet sizes, .408" and .411", SD is .344 and .338 respectively. The 404's 400 grainers go .319. 400gr 416's go .330 and 410grs go .338. .458" 480gr bullets, the 450 NE standard, .327; the 500 grain .458" for the WM and others .341 and the 550, suitable for the Lott, Ackley etc, .375. The 375's 300 grainers go .305. similar for the 9.3's 286gr bullet, also similar for the .458" 450 grainers. Remarkable consistency, proven over a century of real experience by thousands of hunter running the gambit form one time sport hunter to life long ivory hunter to today's professional hunter.

The group that is romanticizing and using (misplaced) intuition and suposition and without substantial experience is the group advocating the 45/70 and relying on irrelevant penetration tests in irrelevant mediums and a very few real experiences. And talk about dismissive of other alternatives!!!

JPK

I'm just a relative newbie at this with just three safaris under my belt but when guys like JPK, Allen Day and others here with many, many safaris under their belt tell you the 45/70 is inadequate, I think I'd listen to them.

Most of us anyway, really do know the 45/70 is inadequate, as inspite of all the hoopla from it's most strident supporters here,they give the 458s the nod instead of the 45/70.

I guess I along with most here and every PH in africa are in error as none of us can grasp the idea the 45/70 is the equal of the 458 Win Mag and Lott. I'll say it again, NO WAY you can get 2100 fps with 4895 and a 450gr bullet out of a 45/70. Max velocity in the Hodgdon site for a 400 grain (they don't even list the 450 in the 45/70) was under 1900 fps. And here are the super hot loads from the Garrett Website:

GARRETT'S 45-70 EXITER AMMO
$180 / 20 CTGS

500-GRAIN SPEER TUNGSTEN SOLID AT 1530-FPS

FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN WINCHESTER, BROWNING, AND MARLIN REPEATING RIFLES.
ENERGY: 2600 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 50; MEPLAT: .235"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-CUP; SMALL-PRIMER; CCI 41 MILITARY-SPEC PRIMER; CUSTOM SMALL PRIMER POCKETED NICKEL-PLATED STARLINE BRASS; TRAJECTORY: +1.5" @ 50-YDS, ZERO @ 100-YDS, -6" @ 150-YDS

Don't see 2100 fps anywhere and I don't think 50 grains less bullet weight will effect a 600 fps increase in velocity.

Considering on what side of the discussion my opinion falls, I consider myself in good company. jorge

jorgie, jorgie jorgie, stop worrying about 2100. You don't need - well maybe YOU need it, but the rest of us don't.

Brent

I'm all for letting those who foolishly take a 45/70 for buffalo do so. In time it will lead to less buffalo being killed by less surviving hunters.

I've done it with 416's and also with several different 9,3X74R's. In retrospect, it was foolish to use the 9,3, but each time I was hunting something else when buffalo too good to pass up were encountered. I used good bullets up to the task, as that is all I carry in Africa...never a smaller, less tough bullet, even when hunting the smallest PG.

I have enough experience with a 45/70 that I consider it a handicap, not something desirable when hunting 1,700 pounds of muscle and bone that would like to kill you. It just makes no sense.

I love to hunt with the 45-70. It wouldn't be my first choice for Africa by any means based on what little I know of African hunting However, I'm sure it could be used successfully in many venues there as long as one was willing to compromise (with emphasis on the back-up's involvement- much as one might of bowhunting or handgunning for a big bear.) That said, I think it might be instructive to shoot a few thousand-pound-plus ungulates to the west of the Atlantic rather than the east with the 45-70 and other things before becoming dogmatic about what a 45-70 bullet can - or may not- do. A northern moose is a big tough animal, though rarely prone to temper tantrums involving pestering hunters. They are not difficult to kill though they tend to die on their own schedule. Watching that happen a few times with what are typically much lighter rifles than what are used on the big buff of Africa, I can only recall three out of nearly ten times that many which tipped right over at the shot. One was with a 30-06 (my first), the other two with the 340 Weatherby. Of three I've shot with the 45-70, two were hit well initially and at less than 50 yards. Had they been inclined to turn my footprints into a salsa bowl, they had enough time to make a go at it before they expired.

" Had they been inclined to turn my footprints into a salsa bowl, they had enough time to make a go at it before they expired. "

I got a good chuckle with your line above. I can "see" the salsa bowl. Not a pretty sight.

JPK

I see no reason to play "The Devils Advocate" in this discussion. No reason to talk someone into trying something they may not be up to the task on. No reason to try and talk someone out of the task they may not be up to the task on.
These days it is popular to try or do things to get puplic attention. Both good or bad. It pays the bills to make videos of puting yourself in situations where you get to stop a charging wounded buffalo. I have watched these videos but I would not put my self in an intentional situation to experience this. I watched a gent from down under play with crocs and slippery things to only meet his demise from a freaky accident of a barb through his chest from a sting ray. The accident was freaky but he put himself in that situation of danger to market himself in a way that required this risk for him to make his fortune. Their is an audience for someone to go to Africa and make a good amount of money marketing himself as a buffalo killer of the highest order wearing some type of khaki colored cowboy hat and khaki colored bandana useing the 45/70 as his weapon of choice. I might even watch an episode or two. But I am not into stunts to trick up my life or to market myself in any such way for monetary gains. Life is too hard and tricked up as it is and I work to damn hard for my money to casually pass on the choice of a 375, 416, or 458 for hunting DG. If your gun case does not presently have a bolt or double rifle in it and all that you own is a Sharps single shot or a Marlin or Winchester lever action with a bore diameter of 45 caliber or over, do not consider the 45/70. Unless you want to market yourself as the next Quigley and sell a ton of videos. I do not need to sell myself as a magazine writer so their is not real reason for me to try these stunts. For me I do not find the need to trick up my hunting or life. It is not worth it. Simply their is a better choice for you to spend your money on if you are an average hunter.