Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Predators and Varmints Terminal Performance notes: 17 Remington

Just got back from a few successful nights of predator hunting in Texas with my relatively new .17 Rem and I learned a couple things about bullets.

I was using Hornady 25 gr HPs ( highly recommended by a few here and elsewhere) and I had them moving at about 3500 fps..so not red lined...
As was recommended they worked well on heavier critters like coyotes and raccoons, no exits. However I only got to shoot a couple coyotes with them and it didnt anchor them to the spot, they needed about 60 yards to officially expire. Im guessing I need a bigger sample....
Coons were DRT...even big ones.

Tried the load on numerous grey fox, and it was tough on the hides, to say the least, usually exited...often in a spectacular manner.

For the little fox I dropped back to a Hornady 20 gr Vmax at about 3500- a load that has worked well in the past....and it worked well again, very few exits, and very small ones...DRTs on a number of fox.

Couple pics for effect....

Ingwe, If I had to guess the ranch you are hunting on has a lot less trouble with quail eaters. Nice bunch of greys

I am unsure what velocity I fling the 25 Horn HPs at but I most certainly have NOT had chest shot coyotes go 60 yards. That's crazy. 7/10 spin a few circles and then fall. The rest drop instantly. I did blow the front leg of a red fox clean off one time though. That was the most destructive thing I have seen that bullet do, but I did hit it lower than I should have and missed the chest.

I could see the 20 grain VMAXs being awesome on grey fox...they were a bit light for coyotes though, especially on their shoulders. I may have been throwing them a bit faster than you...not too sure.

Tinman, that's good info...

I DO need a bigger sample than 2!

Im gonna go try to up that on a Montana Pale next week....

It does now...it was only 650 acres...the pic above was just one night..

Got these a couple nights later...





Should be more quail and bunnies there next year!

Floor the throttle on the 25s and you’ll be more impressed. I had a good friend who claimed the sweet spot was 3850fps, according to him perfect for wolves and caribou. He probably knows what he’s talking about since his 700 BDL was responsible for the demise of 17 wolves and 8 bulls plus countless fox, lynx, and coyotes.

I’ve found best results when I crank them up to 4000+. The faster they go the faster the coyotes hit the deck IME. Like Tinman I’ve had some spinners but nothing that made it 60 yards.

ingwe, are you throttling them back to Hornet speeds just for fur?

Yes...never having used the 25s before I figured 3500 was enough..


But I think these guys are right...for coyotes it wouldn't hurt to give them a bit more oomph !

Have you ever heard the term 'load to potential'?....grin

3,500 FPS should be plenty, I would think.
I am guessing my .17 Rem shoots them faster than that but I've taken plenty of coyotes at 2-300 yards with it, some even further, which would be slowing that bullet down quite a bit before hitting the dog. I still have never had one go 60 yards when hit right. That's nuts.

I run mine at close to full potential ( ) which is right at 3950. I will admit to not using Hornady's anymore and prefer Berger's when they were available, but mainly use Nagels. Lots and lots of great success.

I've had a few go further then 60 yards, with broadside lung hits. More times then not, it's lights out, BUT there's been enough runners that I relegate my .17 Remington to only (tracking snow) duty. Because most times when they do run, they don't leak enough oil to track them without trackin snow. Although there are exceptions to that rule too. I've got a pic. of a blood trail, in snow, that a blind man could've followed.
I too run mine around the 3900 fps with the 25 Hornady hp's.

Stunt shooters NEVER do that....

Thats just exactly what I thought I'd do in the future...and daylight shooting only. I already found out no blood+ no snow + hard tracking at night...

Probably have to wait a long time for tracking snow in south TX.....

Ingwe: Great work there on the Fox!
What an impressive bag limit!
There must be a reason you have chosen the Hornady bullets for your Rifle(s) and I won't quarrel much at all with your choice.
I have 5 centerfire 17 caliber Rifles on-line right now (a 17 MachIV, a 17 Remington Fireball and 3 - 17 Remingtons) and they ALL shoot the wonderful Berger 25 grain bullets best (accuracy wise)!
These are intended mostly for Coyoting and I sure have been happy with them and their performance - they are pricey and they can be a bear to find sometimes but I think they are worth it.
Maybe you have tried these but if not I recommend them.
Speaking of Montana "Pales", for a moment, if I may.
Back in the early and mid 1960's we used to attend the "fur sales" in Seattle, Washington - we would sell our muskrats and beaver pelts and dream of Lynx and Wolverine trapping.
The pelts came to Seattle from all over the west and Alaska as there were several furriers located in Seattle and prices were strong there.
Back then the Coyote pelts from Montana brought extreme dollars - literally twice the price of Washington and Oregon's multi-colored pelts!
Back then and for decades I have heard of these Montana Coyote pelts referred to only as "Montana whites". And in fact on the rows of tables at these sales the Montana Whites were always designated as such and separated from the mottled brown/gray/rust colored Coyote pelts from the coastal states.
Anyway your mention of Montana pales brought back memories from my teenage.
Thanks for that and congrats again on the great Hunt/harvest.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG: That Berger 25 grainer is the recommendation of a lot of folks for coyotes, and saving the hides. However...last I checked they were out of production...so I went with the 25 gr. Hornady HP...which also came highly recommended ...and it works, though as many have suggested, I'm gonna tune the load up a bit. That bullet seemed to stay in anything over about 10 pounds, it would however exit the little grey fox, but I shot coons and coyotes with it with good results.
I have used the 20 gr. Bergers, but not on fur...just on a couple hundred gophers. They exited every time!

I've shot a bunch of coyotes with the 25 gr. Hornady HP at 3850 fps out of a Mach IV. Most of them drop right there and those that leave the scene don't make 60 yards. Crank that thing up and get in forward of the diaphragm and you won't have any trouble.

Ingwe: Thanks for the heads up - I should look at an on-line catalog now and then to keep up with the times!
Dang, you scared the stuffing out of me with that - I ran downstairs to my loading room and checking in my components locker and luckily I have 6 full boxes (1,200 bullets) and about 40 in an open box of the Berger 25 grainers!
I am gonna have to look into the future a few years (when I run out'a Bergers!) and decide on what bullet to use next. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Happy Thanksgiving evening all.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: Maybe the current Berger on-line product catalog is not current but I went to the linked to site and they show the 17 caliber Varmint Flat Base Hollow-Points?

Link: https://bergerbullets.com/product-category/bullets/?ammunition-product-line=varmint
AND... Brownells shows them at $59.99 for 200 and out of stock now - they do have a box to check for these "to alert me when available"?

I just sat down and loaded up three different loads with more gas

Gonna go to the range and see if the gun likes them.

Both of my first two coyotes were shot at nearly 3800 FPS, from 20 yards, frontal chest shots...It never occurred to me that either would ever move muscle again, and we were night hunting and had three others coming, so I switched the gun to them...but they didnt care for the gunfire...

Anyway, there'll be more steam in the new loads...for sure.

That's a bunch of Grey's taken off of one place, Ingwe. Well done.

As stated you need more throttle. Anything under 3,900fps is pointless.

Good hits will put them down instantly.

I use the same powder charge with the 20gr. V-max and found them fine for fox and great for p-dogs and gophers.

Long live the .17 Rem and 25 Horn HP. This was back in mine's OEM stage...I only have the action from this anymore. Complete makeover reality, it got.
These two dogs dropped instantly at about 75 yards and 100 yards IIRC.




This is it now:




Even with just a sample of two, I think you've got something else going on, as two in a row is a bigger statistic than just two in general, but who knows...
3500 FPS Muzzle Velocity at 20 yards should be plenty of horsepower. Maybe Hornady has changed their metallurgy in their 25 grain HPs? I am a serious hoarder, so haven't bought any for quite a while. Maybe something to do with your particular barrel?

Yeah there could be something new about the new ones.

The old HP's were great. Remington's as well. Berger's BR 25gr. HP were outstanding as well.

T Man,

Those BDL's are cool and I did have one for awhile.

In the end it went down the road and I got an LVSF.

Thank you for your input...I havent driven the 20 Vmax very hard...but I cant see where it wouldn't work well on the hides of little critters.

It's really worthless on dogs.

And if you stand on them too hard they will make soup out of a fox.

Still, a very serviceable bullet for some .17 Rem applications. And they have always shot just as tight as the 25's IME.

I've owned 4 different .17s. Couple TC barrels, a 700 BDL, and an LVSF. All I have at the moment are a mountain of components and the take-off LVSF barrel. My LVSF wasn't all that accurate though it was the first of the 4 to do decent-ish with the Hornady bullet, the others preferred the Remington bullet by a lot. Mostly shot VMAXes in the last contender and the LVSF.

I have an action now. I have the LVSF stock. I don't know if it is worth re-mounting that factory barrel, it's probably half gone and wasn't all that accurate, but it's a good template for a replacement.

In the BDL, my load was 25.2 grains of IMR 4320 with the 25 grain Remington bullet. The manuals have backed off of that a good bit now. I shot some of the best groups of my life with that bullet in that gun.

I figured it wasn't the bullet for yotes, and at top speed would pretty well liquify a fox...I hit one " just so" with that Vmax and suffice it to say he didn't make it into any of the pictures...

Just got back from the range trying some 25 gr loads with some gas to them...all good but its looking like 25.0 gr. of CFE223 at this point.

Mine is an LVSF set into a B&C stock, got rid of the J-lock and put a Walker trigger in it, or maybe it already had one...? Anyway the damn thing shoots whatever I put in it, Hornady, Bergers, you name it..it'll do 1/2 inch without me grunting too hard with any of them. Happy....

I've heard that CFE223 is really nice in the 17's. I've gone with IMR8208 in my 17's along with the 204. Excellent accuracy and lots of forward motion.

Ive been using it in the .223AI and regular .223 and getting great accuracy and top speeds....I intentionally shot 40 rounds of it through the .17 just to see if it really did help with copper fouling, and it did. That said, the powder itself is dirty, comes out coal black...

My 17 hasn’t had a kernel of anything other than CFE223 in years. 25gr is the moneymaker in mine with the 25gr HPs. 26gr under the 20Vmax shoots lights out and within an inch of the same POI. I don’t shoot colony varmints, so don’t shoot as many rounds as some of you guys but I never clean the bore on mine unless accuracy starts to slip. I don’t know if it’s the CFE or I just have a really good barrel but it cleans up in a pass or three and never really coppers up.

Good to know...I like a lighter load for the colony varmints because of the volume of fire...I like my barrel and want to keep it around...

And yes, 25 gr of CFE223 behind a 25 Gr. HP seems to be the shizz ....


Next...Ive got to kill a pig with it!

Was IMR8208 not advertised to prevent copper fouling? I should try CFE223 since a lot of folks really sing high praises of it, but I have a LOT of 8208.
Using Greg Tannel's suggestion of collodial graphite in a clean or cleaned barrel has really worked in all of my rifles. Copper fouling is really minimal.

CFE223 will work fine.

After all the .17 Rem's I've owned and loaded for, I ended up going back to the old standby.

IMR4320

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Or somethin'.

I was told that they are dropping IMR4320. I sure hope that is bad info. I also use it in my 17's. Accuracy with 4320 and 8208 are about the same with close to the same velocity. If not for the 204's I own 4320 is all I would use in the 17.

I have a strong desire to shoot a deer with mine. If it kills 150lb pigs there’s no reason it won’t kill 150lb deer. Silly game department and their caliber restrictions.

I am a huge proponent of 22 CFs on deer, but I do believe a .17 Rem is pushing the limits....especially since most available bullets are designed for varmints. I'd use the 25 grainer and stay off the shoulder.

I killed a decent 4x4 mule deer with a .204 Ruger and the 45 grain SP, and it was marginal at best. Sample of one though.

If only we had an 18gr TTSX. Giant slayer!

My future son-in law just killed a deer with a .17 HMR ( and Ive known it to be done before...) Brain shot. Not recommended though.

Im with you on the TTSX...make that in a .17 or for the .204 and you could want for nothing else!


Anyway, Im gonna use a 25 gr HP or a Vmax to brain shoot a pig....I just gotta do it....

What? I did not.
FAKE NEWS!

I only killed one deer this year and it was with a .223 Rem.

Sorry..but I showed your picture to BOTH my beautiful daughters, and they BOTH said you're too fugly....

That was just their response to being intimidated by my good rugged looks and ripped bod, let alone my .17 Rem.

I get it.

A few years ago, "someone" I know shot a turkey at about 200 yards with a .17 Hornet, using the 20gr. VMax, and it was like an electrocution, pop, and not even a flop. Not a single ounce of breast meat was injured, no damage whatsoever, and the turkey was running away at the time, and that "someone" just aimed "at the big part".
It was a fat turkey, but again, not a bit of meat was wasted. I can highly recommend the .17 Hornet for turkey, if it's legal there. The little Hornet with the 20s isn't bad for such things.
I haven't seen it used on foxes or coyotes, though I suspect that 3500fps is slow enough to penetrate coyotes if you hit them right in the first place. I think you might nudge the 25HPs a bit faster for better performance, but I think 3500 is about right for the 20s.

I’ve used the 17 rem for a lot of years now, the 25gr Hornady HP is what I’ll stick with for coyotes. Kick them up to 4000+ and you’ll like them better, still fur friendly. I still use IMR 4320 or WW760 in mine.

That said if you shoot enough you’ll still get a coyote that wear it like a champ, pretty rare though unless it’s a really bad shot.

The Vmax 20 or 25 grain is no good on them, I tried,don’t bother! but great for Fox or splat factor on ground squirrels. The old Berger MEF was was even better than the Vmax at that.

Good to know!

Confirms what many others have said. I gave the 25 gr HPs the gas and am headed out later in the week to see if I can call in some 'test media'....

Just checked the Hornady website and they don't list the 25gr HP.

Yeah...I know..but somehow Midway got their hands on a batch of bulk 25 Has from Hornady....go figure.

my 17 Remington shoots around 4,000 fps and works great on gray fox,coyotes but my 17 Rem. blows big holes in red fox every time seems red fox has thin hides i guess. that`s a great picture of all those gray fox !

I just shot my 17 Remington for the first time the other day.

My centerfire 17 experience has been with the 17 Fireball. The 20gr VMax in the Fireball goes about as fast as the 25 gr in 17 Remington. I shot one coyote quartering to me at about 200yds. 17 caliber hole in, no exit. Shot a broadside red fox at about 75 yds. 17 caliber hole in, nickel sized hole on exit.

I have 20 and 25 VMax on my reloading bench which i want to try with CFE223.

As you may have seen, Ive shot a pile of the smaller Gray fox with the .17 Rem and 20 Vmax slowed down to about 3700, rarely exits even the grays...should be the shizz for reds...if I could find one!

I saw the first red I’ve seen around these parts in probably 20 years last week. He was next door to one of my favorite calling spots. Should he come to see what all the squalling is about I may have to give him a 25hp.

I’ve only ever used the 20Vmax on fox and the 25hp on coyotes. I think an experiment may be in order!

Well Kid...I shot half a dozen grays with the 25 HP and it made a mess on all but one shot lengthwise...reds are a tad bigger...but I havent shot one to find out..

Reds are hard to find in coyote country. I've only called two and both were within about 300yds of a farm site. My theory is that the foxes coexist with the farm dogs and hide in the shelterbelts knowing that the coyotes tend to keep away from man.

Now, what I want to do is find a location in Southern Alberta where I have a chance at calling a bobcat. We don't really have "bobcat terrain" that coyotes don't inhabit and we aren't allowed night hunting.

I think your theory on reds is right...I see them in residental areas and on smallish farms, never out in the BIG country with the coyotes.

We're seeing bobcats in Calgary. But Calgary is a long ways from the area that is open for bobcats. The huntable area is east of highway 2 and south of highway 3 until the end of February. So roughly Fort Macleod, east to Saskatchewan and south to Montana. A huge area, but like I said, not many places where a bobcat would be that isn't over run by coyotes. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I'll shoot whatever comes in, but I would like a bobcat.

If you can get access anywhere on the Milk River breaks...that might be a bet for Bobcat in that flat country.
Usually lots of rabbits in those breaks...and you know what that means...

Never used the 25 horn HP but shot maybe 5-6 with 20vmax and it would usually blow a huge shallow hole going in and I never anchored a coyote right there with one. I was wide open throttle with it.... I’d guess 4200+

I hit a few after that with the 25vmax and they all bang flopped. No fur damage. I shot one called bobcat with the 25vmax at probably 30 yards broadside.... I figured it would blow him nearly in two.... but it went in and flew to pieces and never damaged the cat at all. Small sample but that’s been my experience.

Just what I wanted to hear..Ive had good luck on lighter critters with the 20 Vmax but Ive heard what you said about them on coyotes. Im wanting to load and try the 25 Vmax on coyotes and cats....so thanks for the info!

Really appreciate you starting this thread, Ingwe~

I wasn't aware that the Hornady .17 25 gr HP's were available at Midway until I read this thread the other night after I couldn't get to sleep.

I now have a box on the way!!!

I have a T/C Contender and a T/C Encore, both set up very differently. One wears a factory T/C 26" sporter barrel, for longer shots, and the other I set up similar to a T/C that I saw that John Henry had. It was a 16.25" Bullberry heavy barrel, made to be handy for close hunting. I also camo painted it.

I shoot lefty, and those were the 2 easiest, best, quickest, least expensive options to a .17 Remington.

Curious as to the speed difference between the barrel lengths Del? Have you cronoed them?

I for sure chrono'ed the long barreled one. It was spittin' out Remmie factory loads just a hair over published velocity. I don't rmember if I chrono'ed the stubby or not. Obviously I give up a lot of speed with that short barrel, but boy does that sucker handle like a dream! If I get around to finding my notebook with the exact velocities I'll get back to you.

Reds are bigger, but much more fragile. The hide is thin and tears easily when skinning and I guarantee you will see way more damage than on a grey.

Good to know, as I have zero experience with reds, and Id really like to get a nice hide...

I've heard rumors for years that Hornady made a lot of Remington's bullets. The only bullet I've ever used in the .17Rem is the original 25 PLHP factory load from remington.

My question is whether the 25 hornady HP is the same bullet as the PLHP?

I likely have enough of the original factory load to last me til I die. Only carry the rifle occasionally anymore.

I do have a .222 L461 that I've considered rebarreling to the .17. It'd get carried a bunch, and I'd need to start loading for it.

FWIW I shot a lot of red fox with the 25 gr PLHP factory load and seldom saw an exit at normal yardage The most exits I saw were at really long range, or notably when heavy bone was hit. I had more exits on coyotes than on fox. Shots on coyotes were generally longer than on fox. We didn't use a call in those days. Spot and stalk or tracking was our way, and a careful guy could usually walk up on a fox.

The PLHPs I had were noticeably different than the Hornadys. The PowerLokt bullets were plated like the Fusions IIRC. I did also have a box of Remington factory 25gr that were obviously Hornady HPs, the end flap only said 25gr HP though with no mention of PowerLokt.

Like said the Hornady 25gr HP is not even close to the rem 25gr HP. I never liked the 25 gr rem bullet because it was so short, it worked fine it's just i liked the Hornady HP better. I like the 25gr Hornady v-max best of all since they came out yrs ago. But the Hornady 25HP is still around also. I drive these as fast as my 24" barrel will go, over 4100fps with cfe 223. If you put one in the rib cage of a coyote he won't be running off to join his mates.

The Remington 25 was a lot more fragile and would stay inside foxes with body shots, the Hornady always exited