Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders having trouble getting groups

Im using triple 7 50gr 2 pellets and 250gr Hornady sabots and both the cva accura and the t/c encore will not group both have leupold ultimate slam scopes everything is tights as rings and base. just wondering about a different powder bullet combo.

How old are the 777 pellets??

Are you using a primer intended for 777?

Consistent loading pressure on top of pellets?

Just bought them today and just a regular 209 primer that's all you can find around here and pressure is consistent can't believe to rifles are acting the same

I always used a primer designed for 777 when I messed with it.

Maybe try different bullet/sabot combination.

Maybe neither gun likes the bullet/powder combo.

Maybe the plastic is built up in the rifling on both rifles. Soft sabots will do that. I use shotgun wad remover cleaner spray. I let it soak in a,d brush scrub out the plastic.

Well I’ll swanee!!

The CVA was new and it acted like that from the start I think I'm going to give Buckhorn 209 and IMR white hot a try if I can find it maybe switch up bullets. Anyone using powerbelts with luck? I hear mixed results

Powerbelts are all I use. and I have killed more than a few elk with them. Most complaints come from guys that push PB's too fast or at least try to.Some say the Platnums hold up bit better.

Both Pyrodex or 777 will degrade.Use 209 or Black Powder

In my encore the powerbelts shoot the best. The difference between groups is amazing.
Sad because I have a bunch of hornady sabots, and those powerbelts are expensive. I am using 270 grain PBs and 70 grains of BH.

What sizes are your groups?

I was a bit disappointed my Omega couldn't get to 1" groups.
1 1/2 OR 1 3/4" was all it would do.


But, everything I stuffed down the barrel shot about the same. Only POI changed.
That was about 16 years ago, I shot almost $150 worth of stuff through it.
For a 200 yard gun, it'll be okay.

Mine will not group shot 20 rounds threw both. Two shots and clean along with boar butter. Its hard to find powder hopefully I can get some tomorrow.

Not sure why you would use bore butter with sabots. Conicals, PRBs and BP- yes, but not with sabots. I knock out the 777 crud with a brush, or a damp patch every few shots. Still have some loose 777, but guns that will use BH209, get it.

A guy I hunt with uses bore butter and sabots. His gun shoots terrible.

I have a CVA Optima V2 LR. My rifle likes 100 grs BH 209 and Harvester Short Black sabot and .451 300 gr Hornady XTP. It also likes Blue MZ powder, basically White Hots, two pellets with Harvester short black sabot with .429 300 gr Hornady XTP

Excellent load, as is the same bullet and sabot with 80gr, and probably 90. My sons killed three deer with 80 grains the first year I owned a Knight UL, including a 12-point that dressed at 172. Pass-throughs, all.

Well just went through this today with my brother he shoots pyro and sabots. He said it's simple you want groups and a good zero? You have to clean after every shot or the dry hard caking fouling will screw you on the spot 2 wet patches and a dry. He was right MB

Bore butter w sabots?

Lose the bore butter. May be some of your issue.

You don't want or need any kind of lube a sabots.

No I was using boar butter the first few just for seasoning. I was able to find BH and white hot so I picked up one of each.

Please let us know what you find out.Thanks

You want groups you clean every shot the same way every time . Switch to loose grain powder and you will be happy .

Seasoning was a thing years ago with BP. Applying a non-petroleum lube was supposed to season your barrel like an iron frying pan and make loading and cleaning easier. No application to my knowledge with BH, perhaps with 777 or other stuff you clean out with water, but not with sabots, again as best I can remember. Some say waiting a bit between shots helps keep the sabots from being affected by a hot barrel, and others recommend swabbing out between every shot. I want to be able to fire at least three shots without waiting or wiping. BH and Harvester Crush Ribs permit that easily.

BTW, the special primers for 777 were designed to cut down on the crud ring by being milder than standard 209s. BH 209 wants all the fire you can give it. CCI 209 mags are good, if they fit your plug well, and regular Winchesters work well for me too. Keep an eye on your flash channel to be certain it’s clear too.

Good luck.

Solheim, load up the Hornadys with 110 g volume of Blackhorn....3" high at 100 yds and reach out there to 200 yds and you will be happy if your aim is good. I shoot an older Knight and use to use 777 pellets years ago but Blackhorn uped the game when it hit the market. I only run one patch between shots and will stack them on a quarter....check zero every year and never have to change a thing.

Ditch the pellets for starters .Maybe your rifle prefers 80 or 95 or 105gr's. Bore Butter is an absolute joke. Never use it for any reason. Almost every muzzle loader I've ever owned 2,3,4th shots were the most accurate. Mine all loved a fouled barrell and thats where 777 powder shines. Clean between every shot? well I outta go Big Stick on your retarded cachunt licking azz! So people are gonna clean there bore with a spit patch between shots hunting? Come on man.... wow! you need to get powder, get different bullets and shoot your fing arse off. You've been led to water...

I'm sorry! Laffin my azz off! It ain't a cast iron skillet! Its a friggin rifle barrel! Hell I've sent a 5th and 6th shot down range that would blow most 30-30's away in the accuracy dept. Have fun and enjoy finding your sweet spot!

Try Powerbelts before you try another solution.

Sherwood

First thing first, you need to get a measurement on that barrel. Get a lead bullet and "slug the barrel" then measure it with a good set of calipers. Get a bullet/sabot combo that will suck the slack up.

For instance if the barrel is .502" you wouldn't want to use a .451 bullet and looser fitting Hornady sabots. I would use a larger .452 bullet like the SST 250ML then use a good sabot for the charge like a crush rib. If I'm using a Magnum charge I would use a magnum rated sabot like the Black Crush Rib or maybe a MMP HPH/24. Or let's say a Powerbelt, the 270 Platnum or 250 Aerolite in a .- 500" barrel under a mag load.

250 Hornady in quick sabots should be decent if not pushing them hard, like with with the 100gr load posted. However if the barrel is on the large side range (I've seen and heard of many like .498" - .506") then it won't matter because its probably too sloppy.

Also check you local hinting regs, you might not be able to use sabots. In this case you would start the adventure with full bore conical.

Good luck!

I would thoroughly clean the barrel. You want it clean and dry, no bore butter, oil, etc. period. I would switch to a different bullet first. If that didn’t solve the problem, I would go to BH209 and test. Some muzzleloaders will not shoot better than an 1&1/2” at 100. And yes, with 777, I would run a couple patches to remove as much of the crud ring as possible between shots. The only shot that matters is the first. I would try to get as close to that condition as possible with every shot.

I agree with the others that are saying, No bore butter with sabots.
Bore butter has been great for my patched roundball rifle and a lubed felt wad over the powder helped too.
In an inline with a sabot you're squeegeeing all the lube down into the powder.
Shoot with a clean dry bore.
A little resistance from the sabot to the bore helps the powder burn consistently. A Too loose or slippery bullet fit hasn't worked at all for my rifles.

Blackhorn,harvester cr sabot and any bullet I chose works in my prohunter and tradition pursuit

That was mostly marketing, I think the idea being to get people to clean and stay petroleum free.
The grease companies sold for lube was awful stuff. And the combination mess it made with Pyrodex was nasty muck. So having something easily obtained that wasn't petrolium grease or crisco made for big changes. Pellet and plastic experts who say that bore butter or similar made lubes are garbage should be ignored.

Agree with all the above. Ditch the pellets. I prefer blackhorn 209 with win 209 primers and PR extreme elite bullets. Shoots lights out in my omega.

I swear by Blackhorn 209. Easy to clean, and loads easy shot to shot. When my Encore groups started opening up, changed the rubber o-ring on the breech plug. Groups tightened back up. Make sure you don't use muzzleloader primers with Blackhorn. It requires 209 magnum primers.

Ron