Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire I have a “God’s Purpose” question.

These questions about God elicit a great deal of emotion, but have no emotionally satisfying answer. If God is good, why is there so much pain and suffering in the world...? If God is omnipotent, why wouldn’t He eliminate this pain and suffering...? If God is loving, why wouldn’t He eliminate this pain and suffering...?

These are tough questions. How do we answer them, or ‘deal’ with them, or process them...? Some here have personally experienced these kinds of things firsthand. Others, a little more distantly, and others have no experience with these kinds of things at all...other than hearing or reading about them. Regardless, does one have to first arrive at some personal conclusions in order to answer them, or ‘deal’ with them, or process them...?

John 16:33 KJV

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Would you not as a parent protect your children from harm if possible?
Suffering, to a point, can build character, but the level of suffering in the world goes way beyond character building hardship.

FIFY

What better way to beat vulnerable people
into submission both mentally and emotinally
by brainwashing them into a fear of death, disease, poverty and
promise of health and prosperity.

It is communism, it's a doctrine you are
not permitted to question... 'or else'... coz
the God botherers like Socialists know what's
good for you.

How does the atheist understand suffering and evil? What is the source or cause?

Some people actually step away from faith due to the injustice of incidents such as the one that began this thread. If anyone had a reason to step away from believing in God because of injustice, it was Jesus. The man who stands at the center of all that Christians believe was treated extraordinarily unfairly.
The man who taught that all people have inherent value was unjustly executed. The man whose definitions of ‘good’ and ‘just’ influences our definitions of good and just was treated very bad and unjustly. Maybe evil and injustice are not arguments against the existence of God. Maybe they are evidence of our need for His mercy and grace.

Empathy.

Atheism is not a world view. It's the position on a single proposition, that no theistic claims have met their burden of proof. That it! That's all it is, nothing more, nothing less.

What the mean, is however an Atheist understand suffering and evil just doesn't include any god claims. The vast majority of Atheist I know, do not accept any supernatural claims, so their understand of suffering and evil doesn't include any god(s), angles, demons, devils, pixies, ghosts, appertains, communing with the ancestors, astrology, numerology, reincarnation, magic, witchcraft, spirits.....you get the idea.

I can only speak for myself, but it's actually pretty straight forward.

Natural forces, or as we say Nature, is not sentient, so it is neutral. It knows not, and cares not what happens to us.

We are biological being. Biological being die. it is not a question of if you and everyone you know is going to cease to exist, but a matter of when, and how, and what you are going to do between this day and that.

Since nature does not know of, nor care about us, calamity will be visited upon us. Since you, and everyone you know is going to die, and we are social creatures who care and value those close to us, grief and suffering is inevitable. So the real question become what are you going to do to minimize the suffering, maximize the joy, and steel yourself psychologically, and those whom you can affect to prepare for can cope with the inevitable difficulties of life.

As biological creatures we need resources, and resources are limited. Limited resources leads to competition, but we can more effectively procure the needed and desired resources through cooperative efforts. At the most basic levels, there resources were distributed by natural processes, that are blind of the consequences to us of those distributions. This is one root cause of much conflict.

Once a person accepts these basic propositions about the nature of our physical world, there's a near infinite number of approaches to attempting to solve the above riddle, just like there's a near infinite number of interpretations of Christianity.

Lets insert christian instead of atheist for
the discussion...

When the Norse raided Lindisfarne 793 AD
the Jesus crowd took such calamity to be
God's punishment for their transgressions.

Alcuin of York Northumbrian scholar
to > Higbald Abbot of Lindisfarne;

“What assurance can the churches of Britain have,
if Saint Cuthbert and so great a company of saints
do not defend their own? Is this the beginning of the
great suffering, or the outcome of the sins of those
who live there? It has not happened by chance, but
is the sign of some great guilt”

****

When black death hit Europe the Jesus
crowd in their vivid imagination traced the
cause of their grief and suffering to Jews
and massacred their communities.

Some also put it down to God's wrath so
the church implemented forced repentence
and promoted their saints like a wacky cult,
thinking it would cause God to back off.

****

Julius Caesar stated [in his war diary] that
success or disaster on military campaign
was in part the 'will of the gods'.. and part
how well you managed your own affairs
in the process.

I can see that. Speaking for yourself, do you ever believe in any kind of higher power...? And speaking for yourself, do you ever feel a deep sense of spiritual peace and well-being...?

It had to happen though, he was the see par excellence, the blood of lambs and goats would no longer suffice and this was the transition from the mosaic law to grace

My thoughts anyway

As for the kids and nurse, it still is a hard one to get one’s mind around
God keeps shîtbirds on this earth for 80+ years. They serve purpose, bear no fruit, and some just work to undo joy and happiness of others. For a lifetime.

I see it that way too.lol

I concur.

Atheism is pure materialism. It's no wonder that nearly all Marxists are Atheist.

But what’s the purpose of empathy? What is the source or purpose of empathy?

Added. Why practice empathy?

What are your thoughts on things evil?

Recall the heyday of middleAges relic theft...
monks, nuns, priests, and bishops – would
steal such from other locations to boost prestige
of their own place of worship – and to revive
fortunes of towns suffering economic decline...
Coz relics attracted money spending pilgrims -
the better relics and the more of them equated
to more tourist dollars.

Catholics even consider a blood stained piece
of cloth of when Pope Paul got shot, 1981
as a relic.

Antler, I do not believe it's your intent, but some of the words you used can have pretty slippery meanings, so please forgive me as I try to remove some of that ambiguity so we do not end up talking past each other.

Do I believe in "any kind of higher power"?

If by "higher power" you mean some kind of supernatural overlord, controller, or supreme influence, whether in the singular or plural, I see no good evidence supporting such a proposition regardless of how it's labeled.

In contrast, if we are discussing natural forces, yes, we are very much at the mercy of many random variances in the universe. A single supernova, asteroid, wandering blackhole ect. in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that's it, we are done, and there's not a thing we can do about it. So in that sense, yes there are "higher powers" or shall we say "powers", or "forces" beyond our control.

If we take a more local view, can a collection of humans be a "higher power", or shall we say "more powerful" than the individual, or even the sum of the collection of individuals? Yes, we know that to be the case which is why we are social animals. The power of the symphony to create spiritual awe greatly surpasses that of the lone violinist.

Now let me apologize a bit for bring up the other slippery word in your question, "spiritual". The Cambridge dictionary specifically includes the word "religious" in it's definition of "spiritual", and Oxford defines religion as "believing in religion", so we get a circular definition that precludes all non-religious experiences from "spiritual". Other definitions presuppose the existence of a soul, or intelligence separate from the physical body, for which again, we have no good evidence.

If however by "spiritual" you mean deeply touching or moving experiences, or those that create a deep sense or awe, wonder or inspiration, then yes, I have the same full range of "spiritual" experiences as theist do, I just don't attribute the experience to any power higher than the combined talents of the symphony. I don't need a god to explain the deep sense of peace and well being I experience the concert, the thousand years of combined experience and 50,000 hours of practice is enough for me. And once it's over, and you reflect upon the totality of the combined efforts necessary to bring you that 90 minutes of spiritual bliss, isn't that pretty awesome as well?

I know a Muslim who agrees with you on this. Amazing how religions can be brought together like that so peacefully.

antelope_sniper,
Thanks for providing your perspective on the things I asked you about. You explained your perspective simply, which shows that you have a good grasp on it.

Good question, but one that begs the question, what do we mean my Evil?

To begin with some clarification, just because something is harmful, I don't necessarily consider it evil. As an example, take the 2004 Tsunami that killed a quarter million people across SE Asia. Although tragic, and greatly harmful, not cognitive intent caused it, so it doesn't meet my definition of "evil". In contrast, by all appearances, the person who walked into the parts store 250 yards from my house and shot the young man behind the counter in the chest, killing him, committed an evil act.

My background's in Economics, so I largely see the world through that lenses. Where I perceive the greatest causes of evil, knowingly committing significantly suboptimum action that cause an unnecessary greater net level of pain and suffering, come from people who are:

1. Too stupid to get what they want via civilized means.
2. Too lazy to get what they want via civilized means.
3. Too anti-social to get play nice with others.
4. Corruption.

And if you get a group of stupid, lazy, anti-social corrupt politicians in charge...well, Haiti.

Since there are no supernatural forces to mitigate the impact of these people upon our society, it's falls upon good people to work together minimize the impacts of "evil" upon our society. However, in doing so they must be very careful, and work to understand the unintended consequences of their actions. After all, it's the war on drugs that allowed the Cartels to take over Mexico, effectively putting the leadership of country into the hands of corrupt psychopaths. Unfortunately, these corrupt psychopaths are very intelligent, and very hard working, which only magnifies the evil they can achieve.