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So far I’ve used mine loaded with 75 gr bthp for deer and coyote. 1 bang flop doe and one runner. Anyone have much experience hunting with 5.56?
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223 AI + 62 gr TSX is where it's at....
TB, CWD and Covid-19 , free so far.....
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Yeah. Lots of guys on here use 223, 223AI, and others. Put it in the right spot and stuff dies.
I’ve killed literal tons of pigs with 223 out of ARs. Plus deer and turkeys as well. Lots of pigs with a 222magnum bolt rifle too. Killed two elk last weekend with the 222 Mag.
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Anyone have much experience hunting with 5.56? Yes. More than some, less than others. Way less than others on here.  ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/wtIIgIPl.jpg)
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Ive killed truck loads of bucks with the .223/5.56, I've used used 65 Gameking, 69 Matchking, 73 ELD, 75 AMAX. 75 Hornady BTHP, 77 Matchking. All with excellent results, no buck ever needed more than 1.
Last edited by erickg; 12/21/20.
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A thermal pig hunt is on my bucket list.
If I ever draw I’d love to chase an elk with one.
Nice buck!!!
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The 75 Hornady smashed a doe for my dad, mine was a bit of a runner.
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I haven’t been overly impressed with the 75 BTHP from Hornady. Sometimes it was perfect and others it would act funky. I shot a pair of pigs about as fast as possible with them from about 50 yards. One had textbook entry and 3/4” exit hole. The other had a huge crater where it went to steam in his left eye socket. He was knocked out but got up staggering around and required another. Several coyotes had pencil sized entry and exit wounds even at close range.
I switched to the 77 Tipped Matchking for my heavy bullet needs. It has been boringly reliable on everything. Giving good expansion and great penetration.
My most used bullets are still 55gr SPs from Hornady or Speer. Shoot 55gr Ballistic Tips out of the 222 Magnum some too if for no other reason than to be able to recognize them from the 223s.
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I shot a few deer with the TSX 62g. The one I hit the far side shoulder on dropped like a rock. It was a decent sized buck. The one I didn't hit bone, just heart and lung, was a medium sized buck that ran 50-60 yards.
I don't like shooting the shoulder and wasting meat, and the blood trail on the buck that ran was less than impressive.
So, since I don't mind if they run a little as long as they leave a blood trail Stevie Wonder could follow, I just shoot behind the shoulder with something big and slow now most of the time.
I will say that if the deer running after the shot DOES bother you, hitting the shoulder with a solid, little, FAST bullet dropped that buck like a bolt of lightning.
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I've always thought if I'd deer hunt with a .223 I'd just use a 55 grain soft point
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@goalie
I usually shoot mine like I would during archery season. Usually aim for behind the shoulder low heart shot.
@TheKid
The 77 TMK recommendation sounds appealing, although I stocked up on 77 SMK and Nosler CC early this year.
Last edited by alibi; 12/21/20.
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@goalie
I usually shoot mine like I would during archery season. Usually aim for behind the shoulder low heart shot.
@TheKid
The 77 TMK recommendation sounds appealing, although I stocked up on 77 SMK and Nosler CC early this year. Yeah, I just shoot deer up close. Usually under 50 yards, two this year at about 30-35 and maybe 10-15. I have 44mag revolvers and single shots, a 45/70 Marlin, 300BO, and a muzzle loader that work better for me. If I have a chance to stretch it out a little, it's .308, .270 or 6.5 man-bun for me on deer. I tried it, and it killed the deer, but for me, .223 is relegated to coyote duty.
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It will work if you can place your shots. Not for myself. I am very familiar with them in an other life.
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Woods hunter here myself. 15-125 yards.
221 fireball, 5.56, 6 creed, 308
5.56 truck gun nowadays
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Campfire Savant
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Killed bunches of pigs out to 200 yards with a Barnes 62 and 62 Bear Claws, but I have bigger tools for deer. I think a 243 would be a minimum for me.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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My total experience with a .22 cal on big game was with an antelope with a 22-250. It has a slow twist so I used a lighter 55 gr soft point. It killed him nicely, mushing the lungs, cutting through the heart, and stopping in the far shoulder.
That said, this gun, with a 15x varmint scope, weighs more than my 30-06 so there's no point in carrying it for anything larger than varmints.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Campfire Oracle
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I very rarely use anything else....
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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I set my mom up with a 243 Ruger Muddy Girl, and she is hell on does with it.
I have a 243 Ruger predator with 6X SS that lives at the cabin. Haven’t used it.
The Stunt shooter has spoken^
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5.56 is plenty. If you doubt, step up to 5.57 or 5.58. That should definitely do the job.
Have killed many deer and antelope with various 22 cal centerfires using various bullets from light Barnes to heavy BTHP. It's always been no fuss. I gravitate toward a couple "hunting" bullets now though, both of which are 62 grains: the TTSX, and the Gold Dot. Neither has not exited for me, even on steeply quartering shots.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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It's a great training round. My son killed his first buck with my Tikka .223 and a 64 grain Win Power Point (factory). Worked perfectly, because he shot it well. About 40 yards.
I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough. -- Col. Stonehill
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It is perfectly adequate but I feel like I need to pick my shots more carefully with the 223 than even a slight step up like the 22-250 or 243. This isn't always possible so when I am hunting for big bucks I usually go with something 6mm, 25 caliber, or 6.5 caliber. For culling does the 223 is ideal and I even drop down to a 17 Remington sometimes, which I think now with the Lehigh bullets I will be using it more for deer, hogs and javelina.
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Are most you guys running bolt guns?
Or AR based rifles?
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Around here those using 5.56/223s, all the deer and antelope hunters I know but one are shooting ARs. I know one man why shoots a HOWA 223 for antelope In Wyoming you need a 60 grain or heavier bullet to be legal, and only for deer and antelope. No elk or larger game is legal to shoot with 22 center fires.
I personally have not killed any deer or antelope in Wyoming with a 223 but I have some 60 grain Nosler Partitions loaded in case I ever get the urge to do so.
I have seen others do it probably about 2 dozen times, and with correct bullets they kill just fine. Nosler Partitions, Swift Scirocco and Barnes GMX all seem to kill deer and speed goats as well as you could ask for if you shoot them in the right place.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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In Idaho, you can hunt any big game with any centerfire caliber. Moose or bear with a 22 Hornet? Certainly not my choice but it's legal.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Campfire Oracle
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"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Campfire Ranger
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Bolt gun for me. Specifically, a Kimber Montana 84M.
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Are most you guys running bolt guns?
Or AR based rifles? Bolt guns or Contenders.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Mainly AR use for me. Started with a 16” 9 twist with a 1.5-5 VX3 on it. It was stolen and I replaced it with an 18” 7 twist PSA with a 1.25-4 VXR. To me the most important thing to remember as far as an AR for a truck/hunting rifle is to spend the money on a decent trigger. I limped my current one along with a 6lb mil spec trigger for a couple months and it made it tough to like. The main reason I mainly use the AR is pigs, there’s no limit or season and killing the maximum number possible is the name of the game. Best I’ve done is 8 or 9 out of one bunch before they got away. It rides under the pickup seat 365 days a year with 4 20 rounders in the door pocket. ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/dV4g9D7B/B50-BDA6-F-1499-4-BDA-BD2-E-28-F9-AEE029-A8.jpg) Old rifle. ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/rp5Z1B9M/D8-FD49-C6-E566-41-A0-8-FD8-891-DE918-FADD.jpg) Newer AR ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/43vwdYMF/CB9-F557-B-3-C5-A-4697-B950-8-BEC729-B4523.jpg) If I’m in a bolt gun mood and want a 22cf I grab my 700 in 222mag. It’s a 20” 9 twist Shilen with a 4.5-14 VX3 bedded into a first gen TI stock.
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My daughter shot a nice doe Sunday evening with a .222 Rem. Bullet was a 55 grain Trophy Bonded. Drove it nearly the full length and we found it perfectly mushroomed under the hide.
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Was it a factory load or component bullet Bristecd? I’ve never used any Trophy Bondeds but like the sound of the 55 for a pig bullet.
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A thermal pig hunt is on my bucket list.
If I ever draw I’d love to chase an elk with one.
Nice buck!!! This right here is what worries me. A .223 has no business taking down a 600#+ elk. Ive seen them eat lead from large 30's (properly placed), like I eat Skittles.
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lots of deer and hogs taken with .223 and 5.56
pretty much any bullet will work if placed correctly and with enough power...
killed 15-20 hogs with nothing more than FMJ's when thats all that i had left...
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die, I want to go where they went"
Will Rogers
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Mule deer, antelope, pigs and exotics oh my!!!
I foolishly sold an LTR a decade ago so I slum a hodgepodge of parts 1-8 ar anymore. Running an LRTSi and Wisconsin trigger.
Keep it coming gents. Anyone taken a caribou?
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Now you guys have me thinking about a 223.....
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I have always resisted it even though many are very successful with it. It has dumped a bunch of critters in rural Alaska for a long time and I have been told of caribou and moose running off after being shot with poorly placed ball ammo. But, lots of critters run off after poorly placed hits. I have some 62 grain Barnes TTSX bullets to load up and I know I could kill stuff with that bullet and my Larue AR. Just have not done it yet, always grab a 30-06 or .338.
My next bolt .223 will be a Ruger American or Tikka Superlite with 10 round mags. and a SWFA 3-9x42 HD I have that scope on a Superlite 6.5 Creed and like it for a hunting scope. I long ago foolishly sold the tack driving Rem. 788 I had. What was I thinking
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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A thermal pig hunt is on my bucket list.
If I ever draw I’d love to chase an elk with one.
Nice buck!!! This right here is what worries me. A .223 has no business taking down a 600#+ elk. Ive seen them eat lead from large 30's (properly placed), like I eat Skittles. I agree. Yeah, you hear about elk being taken with them. But, you never hear how many they wound. Somehow that never comes up in the bragging. Have some respect for the animals and use enough gun to do it right the 1st time.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Campfire Oracle
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Was it a factory load or component bullet Bristecd? I’ve never used any Trophy Bondeds but like the sound of the 55 for a pig bullet. I think they are marketing the Trophy Bonded as Gold Dots now..Ive used the 55 gr Gold Dot...and yeah...it works!
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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@1Ak I’ll have to check out those 62’s sometime, seem highly regarded
I like my 6X, but the 3-9 tempts me lately
I used their 1-4 this year, and right at dusk in the woods I felt mildly lacking on brightness
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No problem with deer using 53 gr TSX.
GreggH
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Anyone have good pics of wound channels?
Mushroomed bullets?
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A thermal pig hunt is on my bucket list.
If I ever draw I’d love to chase an elk with one.
Nice buck!!! This right here is what worries me. A .223 has no business taking down a 600#+ elk. Ive seen them eat lead from large 30's (properly placed), like I eat Skittles. I agree. Yeah, you hear about elk being taken with them. But, you never hear how many they wound. Somehow that never comes up in the bragging. Have some respect for the animals and use enough gun to do it right the 1st time. So your claim is that using larger cartridges than a 223 amounts to having more respect of for the animal, that using a 223 is doing it wrong, and that no one using larger than a 223 wounds and loses elk? There's so much idiocy there that I'm not going to bother.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Campfire Ranger
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Why would you even want to???
Molon Labe
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A thermal pig hunt is on my bucket list.
If I ever draw I’d love to chase an elk with one.
Nice buck!!! This right here is what worries me. A .223 has no business taking down a 600#+ elk. Ive seen them eat lead from large 30's (properly placed), like I eat Skittles. Amen Brother. Personally I will not use a 22 on big game. My personal preference that is, but if I had to TTSX and deer/antelope only. YMMV.
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Some good discussion going on, I like it
Not long ago the 243 was considered marginal
I’m not talking running shots on moving elk at 600 yards
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No skittles were hurt in the writing of this
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Casey should stick with what he loves, as he has no clue about the 223's effectiveness on elk.
Have killed elk as close as 30 yards and as far as 475 yards with a 223, and it worked sublimely in all cases.
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Anyone using the 223 and Nosler 64gr Bonded on deer/antelope? Thinking about lining my daughters out of that combo this year. Tags willing
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Campfire Oracle
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Anyone using the 223 and Nosler 64gr Bonded on deer/antelope? Thinking about lining my daughters out of that combo this year. Tags willing
I tried that bullet and frankly could not get it to shoot to my satisfaction. Shot a couple deer with it and actually felt the damage was excessive-ruined a lot of meat. Others have reported better results though...
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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For lack of anything better to do with my time on lockdown I read this whole thread earlier this morning. Lots of great info that lines up with my findings and experience with the 77TMK. If you have a gun with the twist to shoot them they are THE game bullet for the small case 22 centerfires IMO. I started using them 2 years ago on Form’s recommendation on here and he wasn’t lying. I haven’t shot anything bigger than a coyote at more than 200 yards or so. But at 200 and in we’ve killed a mountain of pigs and deer. They are devastating. The advice in the linked thread to stay off the eating parts is good advice but they have no problem breaking shoulders on 200lb pigs if you’re inclined. I haven’t shot anything over about 250lb with them but on game up to that size I’d say exits are the norm IME. Wife drove one through a buck on a diagonal through the shoulder back to the flank and I did recover it but that was probably 28-30” of penetration.
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Anyone using the 223 and Nosler 64gr Bonded on deer/antelope? Thinking about lining my daughters out of that combo this year. Tags willing
I tried that bullet and frankly could not get it to shoot to my satisfaction. Shot a couple deer with it and actually felt the damage was excessive-ruined a lot of meat. Others have reported better results though... Hmm. Initial accuracy testing has been fine for me but admittedly it’s not my normal protocol. Basically shot a fist size group at 200 yards aiming at a 2” circle with a 4x scope and circle dot reticle... More testing is needed but that rudimentary accuracy should suffice figuring a 200 yard maximum shot Penetration was adequate? Guess I’d rather have more damage than less given the cartridge but if we hit a shoulder I want it to still do the trick
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I happen to have some 62gr TB Bear Claws as well, though not nearly as many
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Anyone using the 223 and Nosler 64gr Bonded on deer/antelope? Thinking about lining my daughters out of that combo this year. Tags willing
My kids have used that bullet out of a 22-250. Antelope, WT, and Mule deer. I don’t think we’ve caught a bullet yet. The rifle has a 22” barrel. We call it the death ray. I tried the 60 partition and it was hard to catch one on the target due to the 14 twist. The 63 Sierra shot very well for us too but we haven’t used it on game. I know I’ve posted this before, but hey I’m bragging on my kid. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/12375857/mule-deer
Last edited by Ralphie; 12/23/20.
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@Ralphie
If I ever nickname a rifle can I use death ray? Sounds kinda storm trooperish.
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Campfire Oracle
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The 63 Sierra shot very well for us too but we haven’t used it on game.
You would not be disappointed , its an excellent game bullet.
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Anyone using the 223 and Nosler 64gr Bonded on deer/antelope? Thinking about lining my daughters out of that combo this year. Tags willing
My kids have used that bullet out of a 22-250. Antelope, WT, and Mule deer. I don’t think we’ve caught a bullet yet. The rifle has a 22” barrel. We call it the death ray. I tried the 60 partition and it was hard to catch one on the target due to the 14 twist. The 63 Sierra shot very well for us too but we haven’t used it on game. I know I’ve posted this before, but hey I’m bragging on my kid. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/12375857/mule-deerNice buck!
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Was it a factory load or component bullet Bristecd? I’ve never used any Trophy Bondeds but like the sound of the 55 for a pig bullet. Hand loaded.
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Bristecd- what powder do you use? how much? thanks. ron
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Alibi- where are you putting in for elk?
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For me deer are not created equal . the coues we have here are dinks spike may be 40-60 pounds, a big one maybe 90-100. the whitetail in saskatchewan weigh 300 plus and 7k to hunt . i for sure would take one of my 30-06s or 7s. .........
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Lapua .222 match case
55 grain Trophy bonded bullet
WSR primer
24.4 grains H335
2.145” COL
I put pics of the recovered bullets in the image forum. Too dang difficult to post them here for me.
Last edited by BRISTECD; 12/24/20.
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@roninflag
Thus far I’ve only put in my home state of Michigan, my odds of drawing here are slim
Worked in Kentucky some this fall, local guys showed me pictures of some dandy bulls so I’m putting in there next
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Lapua .222 match case
55 grain Trophy bonded bullet
WSR primer
24.4 grains H335
2.145” COL
I put pics of the recovered bullets in the image forum. Too dang difficult to post them here for me. Lemme give ya a hand.
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/zfnzdb7C/146348.jpg) ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/d16qYbzD/146349.jpg) ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/4yFsKz4g/146350.jpg)
Last edited by 10gaugemag; 12/24/20.
The last time that bear ate a lawyer he had the runs for 33 days!
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I was pursuing Rockslide the other day and read a bit through this thread: https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/Lots of talk, some backed up with experience. Formidosis, or whatever his handle is, and several others seem quite impressed with the 77TMK. It’s a nonissue for me. State restricted 6mm+. I’d certainly have no qualms shooting deer if it was legal, but would be grabbing something else for elk. I’m sure it’s very capable with the right bullet, just not in my comfort zone. Maybe if I had personal experience with it I’d think differently.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Postimages.org is your friend.
The last time that bear ate a lawyer he had the runs for 33 days!
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Bristecd- i have 4 .222s. currently. 3 sako and a bdl. they have never fired a factory round. i use norma brass in one and lapua in the rest. I4198. performance of your bullets is/are awesome.
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Anyone using the 223 and Nosler 64gr Bonded on deer/antelope? Thinking about lining my daughters out of that combo this year. Tags willing
I tried that bullet and frankly could not get it to shoot to my satisfaction. Shot a couple deer with it and actually felt the damage was excessive-ruined a lot of meat. Others have reported better results though... I killed one big doe with the 64 before they were discontinued and I moved on to the 65 Game King. Got good enough accuracy with CFE223, not 1/2 moa but plenty for 200 yd deer. Plunked her through the ribs and she hardly seemed to notice, walked about 30' and fell over like Arte Johnson.
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
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I want to try the 55 grain Speer Gold Dots and Norma Oryx as soon as si can find some in stock. I never could get the original Barnes X to shoot worth a crap, so I gave up on them.
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ive killed 1 or 2 whitetails with a 223, and my grandkids have killed many with the same cartridge. most with winchester power point , 62gr i believe. if i only owned a 5.56/223 i'd hunt whitetail without a worry. broadside, decent bullet = dead deer. ymmv.
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First deer I killed with a .22 CF was in '67... .222 with a Norma 50 grain factory load....DRT at 200 yards. More since then, primarily with .223. Favorite bullet for some time is 65 grain SGK over 27 grains of Varget. I use other cartridges too, ....it's all the same if you shoot them right. For those who say the 22 CF's are aren't adequate, I ask what is? What are your specific criteria beyond, "I don't think they're adequate." Tell us just exactly what a cartridge has to do in terms of bullet performance to be "adequate."
Mathew 22: 37-39
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I’ve killed a bunch of deer with a .22 Hornet, .221 Fireball and.222. I’m pretty selective on shots though....most are less than 80 yds, broadside on does.
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Back in the mid 90's we hunted deer some in 223 12 twist bolt guns. We found the Winchester 64g power point worked well and still stabilized in most 12 twist guns. I found a bag of old reloads in my basement the other night. They were loaded by me in the 90s and had 64g power points in them.
When I lived in Africa 92-94 my hunting guide friends turned me on to the 64g pp. They used all they could get on warthog and impala on down from 223s and 22-250s.
Bb
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Dude, love hearing about dark continent use!!!
Tiny ten
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I have taken lots of whitetails with 223's, mostly with 65 sierra GK handloads, some with plain ole Hornady 55 sp's
They all worked better than people give them credit for. No problems with any of the shots i have taken. I passed up some long range shots
That i would have pulled the trigger on with my 08's
I would have got him too but a Dad Blam snow flake hit me in da eye....
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Campfire Oracle
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Dude, love hearing about dark continent use!!!
Tiny ten Heres one for you... ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/fXrErGF.jpg)
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Yeah buddy^^^
I dig it man!
Nailed that!
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Campfire Oracle
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Also killed a number of jackals with a suppressed .223 over there 
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Wait times on stamps are only 4-8 months right now...tempting
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Friend of mine from the Sportsman’s club hunts Africa.
The stories he tells.
He was recently developing a load for his 22 hornet with Barnes, to keep it slow enough as to fully deposit bullet energy. Something to do with those bullets petals and expansion. Of course it required the purchase of a Brno, not a CZ.
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Campfire Oracle
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He was recently developing a load for his 22 hornet with Barnes, to keep it slow enough as to fully deposit bullet energy. Something to do with those bullets petals and expansion.
After looking at this for almost a whole day, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this concept....
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Both of my centerfire bolts are Rugers - a .223 and a .22-250. Both have the older, slower twists of 12 and 14 respectively. The .223 loves 40g bullets but accuracy degrades quickly above 50g.
Neither is what I would chose for big game hunting, although I've taken a lot of 'yotes with the .22-250. While I think most of the deer (all mulies) and elk I've taken over the years would have fallen to a properly place .224" bullet from either, there is no way I would chose them for such use, even if they were legal in this state.
A fast twist .223 with a heavy bullet is something I might use for antelope but, although I've hunted elk and mulies with a .44 Mag handgun, and carbine and a .30-30, it would be far down on my list of choices for elk and deer. Maybe in part because I've seen more elk wounded and lost after being shot with a .243 Win than all other cartridges combined, bullet choice unknown in most cases.
That said, a fast twist .224: with a good bullet is undoubtedly a pretty capable cartridge. But for elk I'll stick with my .257 Roberts and a 120g A-Frame @ 2947fps (+P load and brass) as my minimum. I've always used 2000fps and 1500fpe as my rule of thumb yardstick to compare the effective range for elk. Granted, my .44 Revolver doesn't get there and my carbine only reaches the 1500fpe mark but not the 2000fps. I don't know of any .223 Rem or 5.56 NATO load that reaches the 1500fps mark at the muzzle. My Roberts is good to about 320 yards at 7000 feet altitude, which is well within the range where I've taken most of my elk.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 12/26/20.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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@ingwe
That befuddled me also, I’ll ask him about it at next weekends woodchuck match
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He was recently developing a load for his 22 hornet with Barnes, to keep it slow enough as to fully deposit bullet energy. Something to do with those bullets petals and expansion.
After looking at this for almost a whole day, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this concept.... Probably to keep it from going too fast to expand. You know, just zip right through. 😉
When I die I hope I don't start voting democrat.
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Both of my centerfire bolts are Rugers - a .223 and a .22-250. Both have the older, slower twists of 12 and 14 respectively. The .223 loves 40g bullets but accuracy degrades quickly above 50g.
Neither is what I would chose for big game hunting, although I've taken a lot of 'yotes with the .22-250. While I think most of the deer (all mulies) and elk I've taken over the years would have fallen to a properly place .224" bullet from either, there is no way I would chose them for such use, even if they were legal in this state.
A fast twist .223 with a heavy bullet is something I might use for antelope but, although I've hunted elk and mulies with a .44 Mag handgun, and carbine and a .30-30, it would be far down on my list of choices for elk and deer. Maybe in part because I've seen more elk wounded and lost after being shot with a .243 Win than all other cartridges combined, bullet choice unknown in most cases.
That said, a fast twist .224: with a good bullet is undoubtedly a pretty capable cartridge. But for elk I'll stick with my .257 Roberts and a 120g A-Frame @ 2947fps (+P load and brass) as my minimum. I've always used 2000fps and 1500fpe as my rule of thumb yardstick to compare the effective range for elk. Granted, my .44 Revolver doesn't get there and my carbine only reaches the 1500fpe mark but not the 2000fps. I don't know of any .223 Rem or 5.56 NATO load that reaches the 1500fps mark at the muzzle. My Roberts is good to about 320 yards at 7000 feet altitude, which is well within the range where I've taken most of my elk.
I don't deviate much from 50-55 grains. I talked to a guy once who killed 300+ deer for crop damage. He said he used a lot of different cartridges so of course I asked him what was the best? He didn't even hesitate when he said "222 with Remington 50 grains".
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Did he mention cripples?? Lots of these guys don't follow up those that are hit and leave the fields...
Molon Labe
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I have 64 gr bondeds. I can't remember if they are Winchester or what. I just can't make myself load them. I can't take a 22 to the field. I have 308, 358, and 45-70 single shot pistols. That's what I'm looking at for doe season in Misery. Or maybe the 41 Ruger Bisley. The 223 is in inventory in a pistol but ........... I like to sneak up close so I guess it would work. If I wounded one it just wouldn't sit well with me. Be Well, RZ.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill.
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Why would you feel more apt to wound one with a 223 but not with a 45/70? Using a good bullet takes that doubt out of the equation and the rest is just shot placement. Good placement is good placement regardless of caliber.
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Did he mention cripples?? Lots of these guys don't follow up those that are hit and leave the fields... No. I remember he did say that his 222 dropped deer as quickly as his 30-06. I had another friend who said the same thing and put away his 25-06 and 30-06 in favor of his 222 for deer because he said it was just as good. Between them and a farmer kid I grew up with who got excellent results on deer with his 22-250 and 55 soft points on deer, it convinced me that 50-55 grains was a sweet spot for .22 caliber and that's where I stay. That and the fact that Eugene Stoner told the US Army that if they use a heavier bullet than 55 grains, and a twist faster than 1-14", they will lose the dramatic kills that make the 5.56 a great choice
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Eugene Stoner told the US Army that if they use a heavier bullet than 55 grains, and a twist faster than 1-14", they will lose the dramatic kills that make the 5.56 a great choice That's the first I have heard of that. While I wouldn't argue that lighter bullets (and I presume lighter construction) may result in more dramatic kills, as in more parts and pieces of smaller critters flying around and lungs being absolutely destroyed on bigger critters, I have found a quicker twist does as well.
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Stoner said the 55 grain shouldn't be over stabilized so that it would quickly upset and tumble through flesh. Now that's only important with FMJ's.
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Why would you feel more apt to wound one with a 223 but not with a 45/70? Using a good bullet takes that doubt out of the equation and the rest is just shot placement. Good placement is good placement regardless of caliber. There is more to it than just shot placement - not every shot goes where intended and one needs to be prepared for that. For inside 300 yards, Ill take my .45-70 because size matters. Compare a .458" 350g bullet @ 2000fps MV to a .224" 75g bullet at 2900fps and assume no expansion. The .45 cal bullet has 3108fpe at the muzzle and 976fpe at 300 compared to 1400fpe and 903fpe for the .22 caliber. The .45 is twice the diameter of the .22 with 4x the frontal area. In terms of momentum the .45 wins 700 Kg-m/s to 217.5kKg-m/s. Which one do you think will penetrate more if heavy bone is hit? If both expand to double their original diameter, the .45 still has 4x the frontal area of the .22. I killed an elk with my .45-70 at 213 lasered yards. The 350g bullet obliterated sections of the near side front leg and near side rib, then shatterd a far side rib before coming to rest under the hide. Would a .223 do that? I wouldn't trust one to do so.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 12/27/20. Reason: Fixed math error.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Why would you feel more apt to wound one with a 223 but not with a 45/70? Using a good bullet takes that doubt out of the equation and the rest is just shot placement. Good placement is good placement regardless of caliber. There is more to it than just shot placement - not every shot goes where intended and one needs to be prepared for that. For inside 300 yards, Ill take my .45-70 because size matters. Compare a .458" 350g bullet @ 2000fps MV to a .224" 75g bullet at 2900fps and assume no expansion. The .45 cal bullet has 3108fpe at the muzzle and 976fpe at 300 compared to 1400fpe and 903fpe for the .22 caliber. The .45 is twice the diameter of the .22 with 4x the frontal area. In terms of momentum the .45 wins 700 Kg-m/s to 217.5kKg-m/s. Which one do you think will penetrate more if heavy bone is hit? If both expand to double their original diameter, the .22 has a frontal area of 0.64 sq inches compared to 2.54 square inches for the .45. I killed an elk with my .45-70 at 213 lasered yards. The 350g bullet obliterated sections of the near side front leg and near side rib, then shatterd a far side rib before coming to rest under the hide. Would a .223 do that? I wouldn't trust one to do so. WTF??? I'm tempted to mark the various things wrong and send this back to you to have you correct your work. The area of a circle is Pi times the square of the radius. An example: the radius of a doubled 45 caliber rifle bullet's cross-section is .458 inches. Square this and get .209764 square inches. Multiply that by 3.14 and get .65865896 square inches, or about 2/3 of a square inch. Pretty big, really, but no where near the 2.54 square inches you quoted. You'd need to start with a 90 caliber bullet and double its diameter. I'll answer your question at the end though. NO, a 223 wouldn't do that. What kind of idiot would expect it to do that? What kind of idiot would imagine that a 223 is going to do the same damage as a 45-70? And lastly, what kind of idiot would assume that the damage a 45-70 does is the only amount that will kill an elk? I can hit a half-liter water bottle at will with a 223 and a good rest at 300 yds. Can you do that with a 45-70? Do you understand the difference between a splitting maul and a scalpel? What's funny here is you aren't even comparing apples and oranges. More like apples and tuna fish.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Why would you feel more apt to wound one with a 223 but not with a 45/70? Using a good bullet takes that doubt out of the equation and the rest is just shot placement. Good placement is good placement regardless of caliber. There is more to it than just shot placement - not every shot goes where intended and one needs to be prepared for that. For inside 300 yards, Ill take my .45-70 because size matters. Compare a .458" 350g bullet @ 2000fps MV to a .224" 75g bullet at 2900fps and assume no expansion. The .45 cal bullet has 3108fpe at the muzzle and 976fpe at 300 compared to 1400fpe and 903fpe for the .22 caliber. The .45 is twice the diameter of the .22 with 4x the frontal area. In terms of momentum the .45 wins 700 Kg-m/s to 217.5kKg-m/s. Which one do you think will penetrate more if heavy bone is hit? If both expand to double their original diameter, the .22 has a frontal area of 0.64 sq inches compared to 2.54 square inches for the .45. I killed an elk with my .45-70 at 213 lasered yards. The 350g bullet obliterated sections of the near side front leg and near side rib, then shatterd a far side rib before coming to rest under the hide. Would a .223 do that? I wouldn't trust one to do so. WTF??? I'm tempted to mark the various things wrong and send this back to you to have you correct your work. The area of a circle is Pi times the square of the radius. An example: the radius of a doubled 45 caliber rifle bullet's cross-section is .458 inches. Square this and get .209764 square inches. Multiply that by 3.14 and get .65865896 square inches, or about 2/3 of a square inch. Pretty big, really, but no where near the 2.54 square inches you quoted. You'd need to start with a 90 caliber bullet and double its diameter. You are a little late - I corrected the error in area measurement before you posted. I'll answer your question at the end though. NO, a 223 wouldn't do that. I agree. What kind of idiot would expect it to do that? Maybe the guy I quoted? Or others like him? What kind of idiot would imagine that a 223 is going to do the same damage as a 45-70? Maybe the guy I quoted? Or others like him? And lastly, what kind of idiot would assume that the damage a 45-70 does is the only amount that will kill an elk? That's a straw man. I never suggested "the damage a 45-70 does is the only amount that will kill an elk". In addition to the .45-70 I've killed multiple elk each with my .338WM, .300WM and various .30-06 rifles and more with my 7mm RM than all my other rifles put together - so it would be a pretty stupid argument on my part. Especially since I've stated multiple times on this site that I believe most would have fallen to my .22-250. (Didn't get a .223 until relatively recently.) I can hit a half-liter water bottle at will with a 223 and a good rest at 300 yds. Can you do that with a 45-70? Yes. And I can consistently hit the steel rams at 500 meters at the NRA's Whittington Center using my .45-70. Do you understand the difference between a splitting maul and a scalpel? Of course I do. What's funny here is you aren't even comparing apples and oranges. More like apples and tuna fish. I'm not the one that brought the comparison up. I just responded to it.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 12/27/20. Reason: Fixed quote tags
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Why would you feel more apt to wound one with a 223 but not with a 45/70? Using a good bullet takes that doubt out of the equation and the rest is just shot placement. Good placement is good placement regardless of caliber. There is more to it than just shot placement - not every shot goes where intended and one needs to be prepared for that. For inside 300 yards, Ill take my .45-70 because size matters. Compare a .458" 350g bullet @ 2000fps MV to a .224" 75g bullet at 2900fps and assume no expansion. The .45 cal bullet has 3108fpe at the muzzle and 976fpe at 300 compared to 1400fpe and 903fpe for the .22 caliber. The .45 is twice the diameter of the .22 with 4x the frontal area. In terms of momentum the .45 wins 700 Kg-m/s to 217.5kKg-m/s. Which one do you think will penetrate more if heavy bone is hit? If both expand to double their original diameter, the .45 still has 4x the frontal area of the .22. I killed an elk with my .45-70 at 213 lasered yards. The 350g bullet obliterated sections of the near side front leg and near side rib, then shatterd a far side rib before coming to rest under the hide. Would a .223 do that? I wouldn't trust one to do so. Well for one the fellow I was responding to stated that he was going deer hunting, does specifically, and that he would hate to wound one. Now that said, you state that not every shot lands where it’s supposed to and that being your reasoning for choosing the 45/70. Whether the shot goes where intended or not boils down to shot placement. If you can’t place the bullet where it belongs don’t take the shot. Even assuming stuff happens, which I agree it does to everyone eventually. How much margin for error does the 45/70 give us over a 22cf? All the frontal area math you posted goes out the window when we use expanding bullets, assuming they actually expand. Reference the pictures in the link to the Rokslide thread, my experience mirrors theirs. A deer my wife shot last fall using a 223/77TMK had an approximately 2” hole through the organs that were in the bullet’s path. What about “eating right up to the hole” with the 45/70? Everything I’ve shot with a 45/70 has had a narrow wound path, nothing like a high velocity rifle cartridge, even a 22 caliber one. I’m thinking that the only thing a 45/70 has going for it in this case is breaking heavy bones. But deer don’t have any heavy bones really. A good shot is a good shot and a bad shot a bad one once we take crappy bullets out of the equation.
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Op was asking about deer hunting with a 223 and now it's about elk hunting????
Back on topic. Op No problem with 223 and well placed shots, even just a 55gr sp through the rib cage will work. It's about shot placement.
I would have got him too but a Dad Blam snow flake hit me in da eye....
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Can’t speak for elk with the 223 or 45-70 but I can speak for whitetails. Having shot a couple dozen with both the 223ai and the 45-70, I’d gladly take the 223 within any reasonable distance. The 223 with the 64 nosler bonded, 62 grain fusion, and 75 Amax did considerable more internal damage than the 45-70 with 300 grain jacketed hollow points. The entrance with the 45-70 always left a larger hole obviously but the 223 exits were always as big or bigger than the 45-70. Deer ran less with the 223 with lung shots. The only thing the 45-70 did the 223 didn’t was kick a lot more and always passed through. The 223 shot way flatter and deer ran much less. Both worked well but the 223 on deer worked better in my opinion. The 55ttsx made wounds like the 45-70 but a few never exited.
I’ll stick with my 7-08 or 300 win mag for elk, they’ve both worked flawlessly in the past on my couple of elk. Although I’m sure the 45-70 and the 223 would have killed them both as well
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Op was asking about deer hunting with a 223 and now it's about elk hunting????
Back on topic. Op No problem with 223 and well placed shots, even just a 55gr sp through the rib cage will work. It's about shot placement. I used the example of elk to demonstrate the greater penetration capability of the 45-70. It was not about elk specifically.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Well for one the fellow I was responding to stated that he was going deer hunting, does specifically, and that he would hate to wound one.
Now that said, you state that not every shot lands where it’s supposed to and that being your reasoning for choosing the 45/70. Whether the shot goes where intended or not boils down to shot placement. If you can’t place the bullet where it belongs don’t take the shot. Once the sear breaks the shooter has no control. Animal movement and wind are just two factors that can change an otherwise good shot into something else. There are no guarantees. Even assuming stuff happens, which I agree it does to everyone eventually. How much margin for error does the 45/70 give us over a 22cf? All the frontal area math you posted goes out the window when we use expanding bullets, assuming they actually expand. Reference the pictures in the link to the Rokslide thread, my experience mirrors theirs. The one 45-70 bullet I've recovered expanded to .80" average and .98" maximum. Are you suggesting a .bullet fired from a .223 will do that? My frontal area math is fine. A deer my wife shot last fall using a 223/77TMK had an approximately 2” hole through the organs that were in the bullet’s path. What about “eating right up to the hole” with the 45/70? Everything I’ve shot with a 45/70 has had a narrow wound path, nothing like a high velocity rifle cartridge, even a 22 caliber one.
I’m thinking that the only thing a 45/70 has going for it in this case is breaking heavy bones. But deer don’t have any heavy bones really. The ability to break heavy bones and the ability to penetrate both depend on the same factors - the amount of energy and momentum transferred to the target and the time and manner in which that transfer occurs. A bullet cannot transfer energy or momentum it doesn't possess. A good shot is a good shot and a bad shot a bad one once we take crappy bullets out of the equation. Use any bullets you like, I'll still take my .45-70 over a .223 for the mulies we have around here, and especially for elk and larger. (The OP's question was about "big game", not just deer.) For smaller deer and antelope it wouldn't be as much of a concern. As I've stated before, most of the elk I've taken probably would have fallen to my .22-250. It is the "probably" that makes me feel more comfortable with heavier, fatter bullets. YMMV
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 12/28/20. Reason: spelnig
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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I read many historical diaries and articles. Twice I read when the NEW 30WCF cartridge arrived on the scene the old 45-70's were put out to pasture. They said with the new 30-30 it was easier to hit at extended distances, was lighter in weight, and killed moose and bear far faster with less tracking than the old 45-70, because of its higher velocity.
Last edited by stuvwxyz; 12/28/20.
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A .223 is not in the same league with a .30-30..
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A .223 is not in the same league with a .30-30.. So true, was just relating experiences of hunters that have used both high velocity and lower velocity cartridges. The higher velocity loads often do considerable more damage than the lower velocity. The above posts were comparing the 45-70 to the 223 and others voiced my point. Have only shot 2 mule deer with the 45-70 and both died but little damage. The same bullet placement by a high power cartridge created huge damage.
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The beautiful part of this whole discussion is everyone wins. With ammunition and components being hard to come by I’m sure those who use 223’s are happy not to have anymore competition for components or ammo. I know from killing lots and lots of deer with 223’s 223AI and 22-250AI they do not need to be defended. I don’t care to try and convince someone to use a 223 just like I won’t spend any time trying to tell someone they’re over cooking their steak when cooked past medium rare.....grin. Carry on and use what you wish.
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A .223 is not in the same league with a .30-30.. I've never caught a 223 bullet in a deer. I've seen one make it to the off-side hide and not exit, but all of the deer I have shot at various angles and nearly all I have seen shot at various angles using a 223, the bullet has exited and the animal has been down at less than 10 steps. This is not true in my experience with a 30-30. Regarding deer from small meat deer to big mature bucks, 223s have been FAR MORE DECISIVE than 30-30s. So I am curious what you mean by that statement. I agree with it, but likely not for the reasons you wrote it.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Hunt, I have followed you posts quite often, and found good information.. But I can't agree with the .223 on game.. I have done it but to me it is stunt shooting.. I would not carry one if I were seriously hunting for a large deer.. I just think too many things can go wrong especially with someone on limited time or limited experience.. I also dislike the lack of a good blood trail when using smaller calibers.. Most of my hunting is in open country and I can see what happens to the game after the shot, so locating it is usually not difficult.. But given any type of cover, I just feel too many things can go wrong.. Obviously you experience on game with the .223 has been very good.. Anytime I shoot deer size game with a ,22 caliber, I always have the feeling I hope this goes right.. I have never lost any game I shot with the various .22 calibers, I always have a lack of faith.. I haven't looked for a while, but I suppose I have shot near 80 head of deer sized game with these calibers.. To me I think their use on game by the average hunter is a good idea..
Molon Labe
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I meant to say NOT a good idea.. Sorry...
Molon Labe
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I caught a 69 grain Sierra out of a 223 used to kill a doe antelope. Bullet entered last rib as she was running away and was found in the lung cavity. Picture perfect expansion. Could have been used in an advertisement. I used a 222 Rem a lot over the years, before premium bullets were available. I killed a few antelope and deer with it and found it wanting. Killed quite a few coyotes with it and found it wanting on them as well. I feel that with the current crop of hunting bullets , not the varmint bullets available then, that I could have had better success.
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Barnes TSX bullets punch way above their caliber. I would no hesitate to hunt a 223 with them at reasonable ranges and circumstances.
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I've shot a lot with 223. And quite a bit of game too. With a fair amount of differing but usually heavier bullets. Antying 50 or over in a copper is going to do as fine as say a 65 and heavier in cup and core.
I've killed deer out to almost 600 yards easily with the 223. No hesitation on my part.
I"d tackle about anything with a 223 but I'd know my limits.
Simple as that.
And fwiw I've yet to see anything walk away from a 223 with one of our bulk match practice loads with 75 bthp in the mag. Much less 69smks.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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600 yards? I guess if you say so..
Molon Labe
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What exactly are you trying to accomplish by being a contrarian?
Have you ever shot anything with a 77gr tmk? Or an eld?
And if so, what made you think it wasn’t enough when you saw the wound track??
They bang flop Wyoming game. 8 this year.
Hopping over into SoDak it’s more of the same. 4 more bucks and an antelope.
Keep ur 45-70, I’ll keep my 26gr of powder bang flops.
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OP
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Scored some 77 TMK
Still doe season for a couple days
I appreciate all the replies so far
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I only shot two big game critters this year due to taking a transfer to a new state, but took both with a .223 Rem and the only Barnes bullet I have used that I can endorse....the 62 TSX.
An average 4x4 mule deer and a relatively young antelope buck. Both were 100-125 yards away.
No complaints in performance, whatsoever.
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A .223 is not in the same league with a .30-30.. So true, was just relating experiences of hunters that have used both high velocity and lower velocity cartridges. The higher velocity loads often do considerable more damage than the lower velocity. The above posts were comparing the 45-70 to the 223 and others voiced my point. Have only shot 2 mule deer with the 45-70 and both died but little damage. The same bullet placement by a high power cartridge created huge damage. This has definitely been my experience too, having killed deer with both rounds in question. My only question, because I haven’t personally done it, is if a mono in 223 would cause less meat damage. Mm
Tell me the odds of putting grease on the same pancake? I Know they are there, well ice and house slippers. -Kawi
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I've never caught a 223 bullet in a deer. I've seen one make it to the off-side hide and not exit, t.
Those two phrases seem to contradict each other. What am I missing?
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600 yards? I guess if you say so.. Nuh unh.
Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.
Pronoun: Yes, SIR !
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Stamp in hand now, going to be a good year.
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So far I’ve used mine loaded with 75 gr bthp for deer and coyote. 1 bang flop doe and one runner. Anyone have much experience hunting with 5.56? yeah why go that route when a Daisy Red Ryder would even recoil less....
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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You have it Seafire.. With all the rifles available we have to endure this crap!!
Last edited by WyoCoyoteHunter; 05/10/21.
Molon Labe
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A thermal pig hunt is on my bucket list.
If I ever draw I’d love to chase an elk with one.
Nice buck!!! This right here is what worries me. A .223 has no business taking down a 600#+ elk. Ive seen them eat lead from large 30's (properly placed), like I eat Skittles. Well, I agree that a .223 is not a proper elk gun. However, you are making the wrong assumption on what happens with large 30’s. People see elk soak up multiple hits with large 30’s, as I have, and assume that smaller guns would do worse. Fact is, elk are tough and they’ll soak up multiple rounds regardless of caliber.
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle. I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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Why would you feel more apt to wound one with a 223 but not with a 45/70? Using a good bullet takes that doubt out of the equation and the rest is just shot placement. Good placement is good placement regardless of caliber. There is more to it than just shot placement - not every shot goes where intended and one needs to be prepared for that. For inside 300 yards, Ill take my .45-70 because size matters. Compare a .458" 350g bullet @ 2000fps MV to a .224" 75g bullet at 2900fps and assume no expansion. The .45 cal bullet has 3108fpe at the muzzle and 976fpe at 300 compared to 1400fpe and 903fpe for the .22 caliber. The .45 is twice the diameter of the .22 with 4x the frontal area. In terms of momentum the .45 wins 700 Kg-m/s to 217.5kKg-m/s. Which one do you think will penetrate more if heavy bone is hit? If both expand to double their original diameter, the .22 has a frontal area of 0.64 sq inches compared to 2.54 square inches for the .45. I killed an elk with my .45-70 at 213 lasered yards. The 350g bullet obliterated sections of the near side front leg and near side rib, then shatterd a far side rib before coming to rest under the hide. Would a .223 do that? I wouldn't trust one to do so. WTF??? I'm tempted to mark the various things wrong and send this back to you to have you correct your work. CH is a known idiot. Not sure why people even get worked up over his posts anymore. Just ignore him and let him wander around yelling at the plants like the retard he is.
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle. I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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While it's not my first choice, 40 years ago, after an eye surgery temporarily kept me from shooting anything with recoil, a friend's dad loaned me his M 722 in .222 Rem. Got my deer, returned the rifle with the 19 remaining cartridges. It worked well.
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My kids shot the 62gr Federal Fusions for a couple years before they graduated to larger calibers. Most deer fell in their tracks, I think the only runner went about 75 yards.
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I had a buddy shoot a 200pound plus hog with the 62 gr Fusion out of a Savage bolt rifle in 223. He got 18 inches of penetration but the blood trail was awful. Fortunately the hog was white and black nd he was easy to find in the pines.The recovered bullet was magazine ad quality and I believe it weighed 46 grains.
Bill
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got 13 tags for the fall coming. all but one will be filled with a 75gr eld-m from a 20" 8 twist tikka.
have to step up to the mighty 6br to dump the ironside elk.
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@roninflag
Thus far I’ve only put in my home state of Michigan, my odds of drawing here are slim
Worked in Kentucky some this fall, local guys showed me pictures of some dandy bulls so I’m putting in there next You won’t be legally using a .223 for elk in Kentucky, 270 minimum.
Last edited by ridgerunner_ky; 05/19/21.
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The .223/5.56 load I've been using has worked really well on even big feral hogs some shot at over 200 yards. We load the Hornady 62 grain BTHP #2276C250 bought from Midsouth in bulk but no longer available even on backorder. A max load of Varget is what I've loaded but I suspect IMR 4064 or either 4895 would work fine. Never once have I shot one with the .223 that got away, but for deer hunting I use a .30-06. There are occasional 300+ yard shots and deer are brought home, not dragged off to the gut pile as are hogs. I shot a big boar the other night from across a bayou with the .30-06 and a 180 SST and he went hiking off. I had to drive around to the highway bridge to go check on him and when I got there was able to shoot 2 more with the .223. Those 2 went down DRT and the .30-06 victim had made it about 70 yards. Place of impact does matter a lot (duh).
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got 13 tags for the fall coming. all but one will be filled with a 75gr eld-m from a 20" 8 twist tikka.
have to step up to the mighty 6br to dump the ironside elk. What’s your muzzle velocity?
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
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got 13 tags for the fall coming. all but one will be filled with a 75gr eld-m from a 20" 8 twist tikka.
have to step up to the mighty 6br to dump the ironside elk. What’s your muzzle velocity? Pharm he has 39 pages of this B.S. over on that other forum linked in this thread, RokSliders or whatever it is. 39 pages of B.S. so deep you need a life boat.
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The only bullet I've ever used with a .223 for deer was a Speer 70 grain Semi Spitzer. Drops 'em dead on the spot. Yeah it's not a 400 yard bullet but then I dont think a .223 is a 400 yard deer gun either. You want a 400 yard deer gun get a 30-06 or a 6.5 something or a .270.
Last edited by Filaman; 05/25/21.
What goes up must come down, what goes around comes around, there's no free lunch. Trump's comin' back, get over it!
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[quote=Coyote_Hunter]Both of my centerfire bolts are Rugers - a .223 and a .22-250. Both have the older, slower twists of 12 and 14 respectively. The .223 loves 40g bullets but accuracy degrades quickly above 50g.
Neither is what I would chose for big game hunting, although I've taken a lot of 'yotes with the .22-250. While I think most of the deer (all mulies) and elk I've taken over the years would have fallen to a properly place .224" bullet from either, there is no way I would chose them for such use, even if they were legal in this state.
A fast twist .223 with a heavy bullet is something I might use for antelope but, although I've hunted elk and mulies with a .44 Mag handgun, and carbine and a .30-30, it would be far down on my list of choices for elk and deer. Maybe in part because I've seen more elk wounded and lost after being shot with a .243 Win than all other cartridges combined, bullet choice unknown in most cases.
That said, a fast twist .224: with a good bullet is undoubtedly a pretty capable cartridge. But for elk I'll stick with my .257 Roberts and a 120g A-Frame @ 2947fps (+P load and brass) as my minimum. I've always used 2000fps and 1500fpe as my rule of thumb yardstick to compare the effective range for elk. Granted, my .44 Revolver doesn't get there and my carbine only reaches the 1500fpe mark but not the 2000fps. I don't know of any .223 Rem or 5.56 NATO load that reaches the 1500fps mark at the muzzle. My Roberts is good to about 320 yards at 7000 feet altitude, which is well within the range where I've taken most of my elk.
[/quote)
Have you tried the 70 grain Speer Semi Spitzer in your 1-12 twist? They shoot really well in my 1-12 twist and reasonably well in my 1-14 .22-250 Remington 700. They're Semi Spitzer and not as long. so they stabilize better in the looser twist. For out to 200 yards they're accurate and kill deer with regularity and of course with proper shot placement, which is required no matter the caliber or bullet.
Last edited by Filaman; 05/25/21.
What goes up must come down, what goes around comes around, there's no free lunch. Trump's comin' back, get over it!
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got 13 tags for the fall coming. all but one will be filled with a 75gr eld-m from a 20" 8 twist tikka.
have to step up to the mighty 6br to dump the ironside elk. What’s your muzzle velocity? Pharm he has 39 pages of this B.S. over on that other forum linked in this thread, RokSliders or whatever it is. 39 pages of B.S. so deep you need a life boat. What’s BS about that thread? I read the whole thing and thought it was informative. Lots of data points from dead animals in that thread to include a bull moose killed with a 223/77TMK.
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got 13 tags for the fall coming. all but one will be filled with a 75gr eld-m from a 20" 8 twist tikka.
have to step up to the mighty 6br to dump the ironside elk. I got a Tikka too with the 1/8. The heaviest I ever shot where 62 grain TSX.
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got 13 tags for the fall coming. all but one will be filled with a 75gr eld-m from a 20" 8 twist tikka.
have to step up to the mighty 6br to dump the ironside elk. What will most of the game be?
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Loads are being worked up. So far only whitetail on the menu. TMK are flying well.
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I wouldn't, unless it was the only gun I had.
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got 13 tags for the fall coming. all but one will be filled with a 75gr eld-m from a 20" 8 twist tikka.
have to step up to the mighty 6br to dump the ironside elk. What’s your muzzle velocity? Pharm he has 39 pages of this B.S. over on that other forum linked in this thread, RokSliders or whatever it is. 39 pages of B.S. so deep you need a life boat. Ha Ha yeah I saw that.
Dog I rescued in January ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/yYDjsxrQ/IMG-0124.jpg)
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I have used the 223 on deer to know it works and that there are shot angles I would take with my 7-08 loaded with partitions that I would not even consider taking with one of my 223 rifles. My 7-08 is lighter than my lightest 223. In modern times where we all have a variety of rifles why can't we use the best tools available?
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In modern times where we all have a variety of rifles why can't we use the best tools available? Maybe we are. Maybe we just don't agree on what is best or even what best means. Maybe we aren't. Maybe we're bored to tears with "best" and want to try something else. Or maybe we're bored with people who think what they feel is best is somehow best for everyone else, no creativity or curiosity allowed. Maybe we're tired of such people because they act like democrat thought police. Maybe. Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Here be dragons ...
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Well for one the fellow I was responding to stated that he was going deer hunting, does specifically, and that he would hate to wound one.
Now that said, you state that not every shot lands where it’s supposed to and that being your reasoning for choosing the 45/70. Whether the shot goes where intended or not boils down to shot placement. If you can’t place the bullet where it belongs don’t take the shot. Once the sear breaks the shooter has no control. Animal movement and wind are just two factors that can change an otherwise good shot into something else. There are no guarantees. Even assuming stuff happens, which I agree it does to everyone eventually. How much margin for error does the 45/70 give us over a 22cf? All the frontal area math you posted goes out the window when we use expanding bullets, assuming they actually expand. Reference the pictures in the link to the Rokslide thread, my experience mirrors theirs. The one 45-70 bullet I've recovered expanded to .80" average and .98" maximum. Are you suggesting a .bullet fired from a .223 will do that? My frontal area math is fine. A deer my wife shot last fall using a 223/77TMK had an approximately 2” hole through the organs that were in the bullet’s path. What about “eating right up to the hole” with the 45/70? Everything I’ve shot with a 45/70 has had a narrow wound path, nothing like a high velocity rifle cartridge, even a 22 caliber one.
I’m thinking that the only thing a 45/70 has going for it in this case is breaking heavy bones. But deer don’t have any heavy bones really. The ability to break heavy bones and the ability to penetrate both depend on the same factors - the amount of energy and momentum transferred to the target and the time and manner in which that transfer occurs. A bullet cannot transfer energy or momentum it doesn't possess. A good shot is a good shot and a bad shot a bad one once we take crappy bullets out of the equation. Use any bullets you like, I'll still take my .45-70 over a .223 for the mulies we have around here, and especially for elk and larger. (The OP's question was about "big game", not just deer.) For smaller deer and antelope it wouldn't be as much of a concern. As I've stated before, most of the elk I've taken probably would have fallen to my .22-250. It is the "probably" that makes me feel more comfortable with heavier, fatter bullets. YMMV You are an expert on wounding chit so you would know.
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ya know, I'd bet I could drop an elk for subsistence with a 223, if that was all I had.... but I wouldn't do it voluntarily to see if it would work.
and even tho I am a bolt guy, I'd want an AR for a couple of fast follow up shots.
If I had to use a 22 cal, I'd want it to be the Swift or 22.250....
that being said, a 243 looks like a major step up....
I know you don't need a big caliber to drop an elk or deer, but why do people like to see how "low can they go"?
Guess any are fine, If you shooting your elk out the bedroom window in the yard...
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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223's bounce off.
the campfire says so
whatever
pharm.. i went back to trueing my velocity rather then chronograph but assuming .45bc it's 2875 basically on the nut.
rl-15 seems to hold a bit tighter groups but most critters (antelope, whitetail, mule deer) i shoot inside of 300, and most well inside of that. rough guess 10% are shot in that rough 500ish yard mark..
Last edited by Ndbowhunter; 06/10/21.
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Rl15 is almost all I use anymore. 5.56 and 7.62. Known accuracy windows for the win.
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They will kill deer. I have hunted with people that used them. I have also had to spend half a day several times helping them find their dead deer.
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223 isn’t legal where I hunt for deer & pretty sure it isn’t legal for elk anywhere. Like some on here I believe that I shoot well enough to make head shots but I wouldn’t want to be limited to that to harvest an animal reliably. The generation that thinks a 308 recoils heavily seems to love 223 &6.5 for everything.
I like elk burger & venison loin so much I want to be prepared for any reasonable distance & angle. For me that is 7 mag with 150 grain TTSX for deer & 300 Weatherby 180grain TTSX for elk. I practice at ranges beyond where little cartridges would be effective hoping to be able to get close but ready if I can’t.
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7 Has good advice and bows are even worse!!
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223 isn’t legal where I hunt for deer & pretty sure it isn’t legal for elk anywhere. It is legal for elk in Alaska, Idaho and Montana. Maybe more states. That is not an endorsement, just a statement.
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That is not an endorsement, just a statement.
Wait...you're not gonna do like they did in that other thread and " Promote" it....
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They will kill deer. I have hunted with people that used them. I have also had to spend half a day several times helping them find their dead deer. 223 isn’t legal where I hunt for deer & pretty sure it isn’t legal for elk anywhere. It is legal for elk in Alaska, Idaho and Montana. Maybe more states. That is not an endorsement, just a statement. Pretty bad when a guy has to start putting disclaimers at the end of a post.
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Mikey will be along shortly to join the fray…..
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I stand corrected. It shouldn’t be legal anywhere should have been my statement. I get that anything can be killed with a 22. My Dads family in South Dakota used a 222 Remington for their new kid or woman’s deer rifle. With good or even mediocre bullets it killed lots of mule deer. No recoil helps the more timid newcomers who might flinch otherwise.
But the idea that you would pursue a 400+ lb animal renowned for toughness with a 22 caliber under 100 grain bullet makes no sense at all to anyone who plans to eat what they shoot & recover every animal shot.
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Back in the 80’s I used a 223 mostly with Blackhills 55 grain remanufactured ammunition. Dropped a few deer with spine shots. Ranges were close and almost always a running shot.
I couldn’t wait to get into a 30-06 or 300.
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As a general rule, no it should not be used
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Ran out of 77 TMK. Ended up using regular 77 sierras. 6 point down, roughly a 75 yard run.
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A thermal pig hunt is on my bucket list.
If I ever draw I’d love to chase an elk with one.
Nice buck!!! This right here is what worries me. A .223 has no business taking down a 600#+ elk. Ive seen them eat lead from large 30's (properly placed), like I eat Skittles. I agree. Yeah, you hear about elk being taken with them. But, you never hear how many they wound. Somehow that never comes up in the bragging. Have some respect for the animals and use enough gun to do it right the 1st time. AGREED!
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I don’t necessarily think the 223 is the ultimate elk cartridge. But to be honest I don’t hear too many stories about the ones some magnum toting dude shoots a leg off of. And don’t try to say it doesn’t happen, I’ve been a hunting guide and seen more that couldn’t shoot than those that could regardless of caliber.
I think the best plan is to use what you want but make dang sure you can shoot it, regardless of caliber.
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@roninflag
Thus far I’ve only put in my home state of Michigan, my odds of drawing here are slim
Worked in Kentucky some this fall, local guys showed me pictures of some dandy bulls so I’m putting in there next You won’t be legally using a .223 for elk in Kentucky, 270 minimum. Some regs are simply dumb. A 270 Winchester is fine but a 6.5/300 Weatherby is inadequate by rule. 
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My daughter shot a large buck at 4:30 yesterday with a 16” AR at 227 yards. It died. The end.
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My daughter shot a large buck at 4:30 yesterday with a 16” AR at 227 yards. It died. The end. Details, please: What bullet? Where was he hit? How far, if any, did he run? Thanks
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Ran out of 77 TMK. Ended up using regular 77 sierras. 6 point down, roughly a 75 yard run. Well I suppose that clears something up. There is definitely an added bonus of using .270+ rifles on elk. Bulls don’t tent to run. They usually walk or stumble around allowing for an extra shot or two if needed.
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle. I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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Ran out of 77 TMK. Ended up using regular 77 sierras. 6 point down, roughly a 75 yard run. Well I suppose that clears something up. There is definitely an added bonus of using .270+ rifles on elk. Bulls don’t tent to run. They usually walk or stumble around allowing for an extra shot or two if needed. If you’re hunting the Oregon Cascades you usually get one shot. Most of the time they’re one jump from disappearing. P
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Many years ago I shot a reasonably large Blesbok with a .223 and one shot in the boiler room did the trick. If I recall correctly I used Norma 55gr factory soft points.
I was planning on using a 7x57 but broke my offhand wrist which was in a cast and needed something with less recoil as a result. It ran 10-20 steps and fell over dead.
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My daughter shot a large buck at 4:30 yesterday with a 16” AR at 227 yards. It died. The end. Details, please: What bullet? Where was he hit? How far, if any, did he run? Thanks 77gr TMK. Punched a shoulder and hit the far side of the chest. Lungs were icky. Went about 35 yards.
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@roninflag
Thus far I’ve only put in my home state of Michigan, my odds of drawing here are slim
Worked in Kentucky some this fall, local guys showed me pictures of some dandy bulls so I’m putting in there next You won’t be legally using a .223 for elk in Kentucky, 270 minimum. Some regs are simply dumb. A 270 Winchester is fine but a 6.5/300 Weatherby is inadequate by rule. mathman, I believe the hunting regs for elk in Pennsylvania are the same. minimal 0.277" dia with minimal bullet weight of 130gr, if I remember correctly. So 270Win and up. So 7mm-08 is legal as is the 30-30. Ironically I had an acquittance who could legally hunt elk in Colorado but illegal in his home state of Pennsylvania.
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Well not sure the vaunted 223 with a 77 gr. Tipped Matchking would have made this turn out as well as it did. East Texas public land doe. 100 pounds at most. 15 year old grandson took the shot at what he thought was a mostly broadside deer hitting some 4 inches behind the crease of the right shoulder. Range was 60 yards in some thick stuff. She was angling about 45 degrees to his right. The bullet a 140 gr. Partition launched from a Model 7 in 7-08 at a starting velocity of 2660 fps. The bullet penetrated in a pretty straight line deflating a lung, going through the diaphragm, liver, abdomen and on to hit and break the left rear upper leg bone just below the ball and exit out the left ham. Deer fell off the cliff it was traveling along and was dead in seconds. Meat damage was surprisingly little. Bullet must have slowed some before it hit the leg bone.
Dog I rescued in January
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The Mighty -08 speaks again!
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
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Well not sure the vaunted 223 with a 77 gr. Tipped Matchking would have made this turn out as well as it did. East Texas public land doe. 100 pounds at most. 15 year old grandson took the shot at what he thought was a mostly broadside deer hitting some 4 inches behind the crease of the right shoulder. Range was 60 yards in some thick stuff. She was angling about 45 degrees to his right. The bullet a 140 gr. Partition launched from a Model 7 in 7-08 at a starting velocity of 2660 fps. The bullet penetrated in a pretty straight line deflating a lung, going through the diaphragm, liver, abdomen and on to hit and break the left rear upper leg bone just below the ball and exit out the left ham. Deer fell off the cliff it was traveling along and was dead in seconds. Meat damage was surprisingly little. Bullet must have slowed some before it hit the leg bone. My wife shot a middling sized 9pt buck with a 77TMK out of a 20” AR from about 150 yards a couple years ago. He was hard quartered too us and she put it right in his right shoulder. The bullet wrecked one lung, the liver, through the paunch and into his hind quarter where I found it. Organs had about a 2” hole through them. Nothing wrong at all with a 7-08 but I’d bet lunch the 77TMK would have done just fine.
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I lost a bull once with my .300 WM and a 180 TTSX. All I had to shoot at was front shoulders. Hit him hard enough up front to knock him down but he got back up, made it over the ridge and got in with the herd never to be seen again (despite lots of man hours and miles trying to find it). I wish I had used a 5.56 so I could have at least had something to blame other then my own apparent inability to put the bullet into something vital.
Seems almost like maybe a bad hit is a bad hit regardless of what you punch them with.
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Well not sure the vaunted 223 with a 77 gr. Tipped Matchking would have made this turn out as well as it did. East Texas public land doe. 100 pounds at most. 15 year old grandson took the shot at what he thought was a mostly broadside deer hitting some 4 inches behind the crease of the right shoulder. Range was 60 yards in some thick stuff. She was angling about 45 degrees to his right. The bullet a 140 gr. Partition launched from a Model 7 in 7-08 at a starting velocity of 2660 fps. The bullet penetrated in a pretty straight line deflating a lung, going through the diaphragm, liver, abdomen and on to hit and break the left rear upper leg bone just below the ball and exit out the left ham. Deer fell off the cliff it was traveling along and was dead in seconds. Meat damage was surprisingly little. Bullet must have slowed some before it hit the leg bone. My wife shot a middling sized 9pt buck with a 77TMK out of a 20” AR from about 150 yards a couple years ago. He was hard quartered too us and she put it right in his right shoulder. The bullet wrecked one lung, the liver, through the paunch and into his hind quarter where I found it. Organs had about a 2” hole through them. Nothing wrong at all with a 7-08 but I’d bet lunch the 77TMK would have done just fine. 100# animal says a lot about the tool needed for the job.
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. . East Texas public land doe. . . Where were yall at if you can say ? I used to go to a bunch of them, but there were a few times I had some interactions that I didn't care for during gun hunts. Never had any problems during bow hunts Had some really great times
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. . East Texas public land doe. . . Where were yall at if you can say ? I used to go to a bunch of them, but there were a few times I had some interactions that I didn't care for during gun hunts. Never had any problems during bow hunts Had some really great times Just east of Sam Rayburn lake. Angelina National forest. I usually hunt after the first two weeks of season during the week and rarely encounter another hunter.
Dog I rescued in January
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. . East Texas public land doe. . . Where were yall at if you can say ? I used to go to a bunch of them, but there were a few times I had some interactions that I didn't care for during gun hunts. Never had any problems during bow hunts Had some really great times Just east of Sam Rayburn lake. Angelina National forest. I usually hunt after the first two weeks of season during the week and rarely encounter another hunter. Oh ok thanks- haven't been to any myself in a good while. Used to be a few of us that all went together, but most have moved away or passed on I was thinking of getting a permit this year, but I passed on it again. I got tired of the homeless camp atmosphere at the places I was going. That's good yall had a good time without getting bothered. Maybe things have calmed down some
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@roninflag
Thus far I’ve only put in my home state of Michigan, my odds of drawing here are slim
Worked in Kentucky some this fall, local guys showed me pictures of some dandy bulls so I’m putting in there next You won’t be legally using a .223 for elk in Kentucky, 270 minimum. Some regs are simply dumb. A 270 Winchester is fine but a 6.5/300 Weatherby is inadequate by rule. These rules are written by jackass biologists, rather than hunters/shooters. You can expect this from the educated idiot types.
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I have only taken one deer with my.223! I have a question if using heavy bullets like 77grain. Are you doing this to use the AR platform? I would think a 6mm Rem or .243 would go that bullet weight and have some speed and distance advantage.
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 5,785 Likes: 3 |
I was out this past week for the WI holiday antlerless hunt. I toted my Ruger M77 MK II in 223 Rem. It's a 1:12 and was using Winchester 55gr soft points. My 40 acres is thick, a long shot is 75 yards. Only thing missing on the hunt were the deer!
It isn't what happens to you that defines you, it's what you DO about what happens to you that defines you!
NRA life member
Illinois State Rifle Association member
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 968
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 968 |
Even with the very best bullets, I would not use any for big game.
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