Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Burris Scopes vs Heavy Recoil

Gun Doc,

The scope problems with muzzle-braked rifles tend to show up more on lighter rifles--which is often where brakes are installed.

They occur because most scopes are designed to resist normal recoil--which means the rifle moves backward hard and fast. But with light rifles in harder-recoiling rounds, the brake often results in at least some forward movement of the rifle.

This is why air-rifle scopes are designed to take forward movement of the rifle, which occurs not due to the tiny bullet but the mechanics of some air rifles--which tend to jerk the rifle forward, rather than backward.

Mule Deer,

I would have to see high speed video of a brake actually causing the rearward moving rifle to stop and then move forward before I would believe it. I'm not sure it defies the laws of physics, but it comes close. It would take a tremendously sophisticated brake to get that to happen.

That said, a brake will cause the rearward moving rifle to undergo some quick changes in direction of acceleration (but not necessarily direction of travel) that can be hard on scopes.

Imagine a powerful car. You hammer the throttle and the car accelerates. The intensity of the acceleration depends on the power to weight ratio of the car and how well the tires maintain traction. If it is a powerful car with good traction, you will get pinned back in the seat pretty quickly and pretty forcefully. As long as the car is accelerating, and the higher the numerical value of acceleration, the harder you are pinned back in the seat.
Now you immediately get off the throttle and slam on the brakes. The car immediately begins to decelerate. The intensity of the deceleration depends on the braking force to weight ratio of the car and how well the tires maintain traction. If the car has good brakes and good traction, you will get thrown forward into the shoulder belt pretty quickly and pretty forcefully. As long as the car is decelerating, and the higher the numerical value of deceleration, the harder you are forced into the shoulder belt.
Now you let off the brakes and let the car coast. You are neither pinned into the seat or into the shoulder belt. At no point in that exercise did the car change direction, or even come to a stop. But you sure got slammed around in both directions.

Edit to add: The analogy is the rifle doesn't have to change direction, or even come to a stop, for the parts inside the scope to experience acceleration in the "wrong" direction at a level of intensity the parts would not experience in a rifle without a brake. It is not the direction of travel history that is important here, but the direction of acceleration history.

It is also true that a light car with a powerful engine and good brakes will slam you around more than a heavier car having equal power and braking force. This light car is like the light rifle you speak of. But the same things will occur with a heavy car or rifle, although perhaps not as intensely. It is all about the power to weight ratio and the braking ability to weight ratio.

Spot on. I gave $160 for the scope NIB maybe four or five years ago. The scope vendor said he had it for years and there was zero interest given its power range. His tables were loaded with a lot of high powered junk that folks were buying.

Thanks again for all the input.

While I know a MB does change the physics of the recoil "pulse" of any given rifle, it would be interesting to actually side by side graphs of the recoil pulse of the same rifle, same load with and without a brake.

I know scopes are made/available for high recoil rifles with brakes. All you have to do is look at the various 50 BMG platforms, bolt and semi-auto and the recoil pulse and muzzle blast from the various brakes they use and the scopes those shooters mount seem to stand up to that.

I've got Leupold VX-Rs on bolt action 45-70s, lever and bolt action 450 Marlins, bolt action 375 Rugers and the other 458WM. No issues with those after lots of hot and heavy rounds thru them. Wish they still made them. I've also got several older Leupold 1-4x20's mounted that have worked fine. I have also "shot loose" several Leupold variable power scopes too, so they are not perfect but their CS has been exceptional for me in the past.

I remember shipping back atleast two fulfields in then early 2000s. One of them sat on a ruger ultralite 708, dang crosshairs started rotating like you were actually turning the body scope. We stopped carrying them and I've never paid attention to Burris since other than a FFii on a ruger pistol.

Again, thanks for the replies and a special thanks to a member here who exchanged a couple of PM's with me on this topic. He explained to me the now discontinued Burris "Posi-Lock" system and he even found a fleabay adv for a NOS Burris Signature 2-8 with Posi-lock and sent me the link. When I checked it, the adv. stated they had several more NOS. Not really wanting 2-8x range I decided to call them to see if on the odd chance they might have something else.

Turns out they had a NOS Burris Sig with Posi-lock in 1-6x and in gloss. We negotiated the price and it is on the way. Thanks again to him. Not giving his name on the public side since our comms were PM's and hope I can meet up with him sometime for a hunting trip and I'll keep him in beer, whiskey or scotch for the duration.

Never thought of that, but my friends 300 WBY was braked when it broke the Burris scope both times..

Quick update on the NOS Burris Signature with Posi-Lock.

It arrived this evening and looks exactly as the seller said it was. Still in the original box, paperwork, lens caps and even the little screwdriver in the plastic sleave for loosening/tightening the Posi-Lock set screw. Not a mark on the tube and glass is clear/bright just like a new scope should.

I won't be able to actually mount it, test and sight in for a couple of weeks. The Leupold QR rings arrived today too, but the bases are still "out there somewhere" and I've got to be out of town for a couple of weeks.

I waited to pass the seller's contact info until I actually got the scope in my hands. Here's the original fleabay link I was passed in a PM that I used to contact the seller and find out he had other NOS Signature Series available. 1500+ fleabay sales and 100% positive feedback.

Lyon Sporting Goods

Phone # is:315-546-4163 and ask for Doug.

Here's another short update.....

The day after the first and original Burris Fullfield bit the dirt, I got on the Burris website and filled out the on-line form detailing the situation including the cal of rifle it was on.

Then, I got on flebay and found a Leupold VX-IIc in 1-4x20 and put a low ball bid on it. A little later I had the PM exchange with a member here about the NOS Burris Signature with Posi-lock, called, found they had several and struck a deal and it was on it's way.

Couple of days later, I win the freaking bid on the fleabay Leupold - crapp! The new Burris arrives, get it mounted per above and head for the range. Love the scope, clear sharp optics and enough eye relief on 6x to not worry about a cut - even without the break on. Laser bore sight and head to the range. Did the normal 25yd line to start and confirmed I was going to be "on paper" via the good ol' bore sighting. First two shots, about 6" high and 3" left. Loosen the locking set screw and make the estimated "click" adjustment, reset the set screw and two more shots. 1" high and 1" left. Seems to be tracking fairly well and move to the 50yd line.

Two more shots and about 4" and 2" left. Loosen the set screw, adjust appropriate number clicks, reset the screw and two more shots. Bug hole (big bug) 1" high dead over bull. Very impressed with the tracking and continue to play/learn the rifle with 3-shot groups and letting the barrel cool between. All is right with the world....almost. After a few more 3-shot groups, the reticle wires actually broke. Well....at least this one got to about 20 rds. It's a weekend so Burris isn't open.

Get home and there is an email from Burris my original scope is "beyond repair" and they are sending me a new scope. I email back to see what they were sending but, no response. I log on to my RMA account with them and put in another RMA request for the "new" Burris and include a photo of the reticle and copy of the sales invoice. Monday the fleabay Leupold arrives, get it mounted and head to the range the next day. Normal standard Leupold - tracked well, stayed sighted and put 50rds down.

Yesterday, the "new" replacement Burris. They sent a new "not a refirb" Fullfeild IV, 2.5-10x42. MSRP about $200.00 and on-line retail $160+ OK, not bad. I don't think I'll be putting it back on the 458 for a couple of reasons - not sure it will stand the recoil and want lower magnification range - Even the Burris Signature I got was a more than I want on 458 so maybe the Leupold will just stay on it and I'll have to find homes (other rifles) for the other two. At least I'm "presuming" Burris can just replace the reticle and send it back.

In all fairness, the reticle breaking on the new one could have been my error in not tightening the Posi-Lock set screw tight enough. Quoted from the actual instructions, "When the set screw makes contact, the system is locked. DO NOT OVER-TIGHTEN. DAMAGE CAUSED BY OVER-TIGHTINEING IS NOT COVERED BY WARRANTY. Just "snug up" the screw" So, when I was resetting the screw I may not have put enough tension on it as I was just setting it so to where I could just feel it touch to prevent any chance of "over-tightening". We'll see, I go the RMA authorization yesterday and it's in the mail to them.

Again, not being familiar with the Burris glass or the company in general I'm trying to give a fare/accurate representation. I can't honestly say anything negative about the original Fullfield that came on the rifle. I think the previous owner just didn't know the recoil level/impulses on a 458WM and it was a simple mismatch. Likewise for myself, not knowing very much about their products and models, especially going back to the mid 80's, I didn't think anything about it either way until it failed. On the positive side, the company replaced the scope with a brand new one that appears to be of better quality than the original and did so quickly without any squirming around. I hope they can repair the one I just sent back as I did honestly like and the breakage could just be a fluke or operator error. We'll see......