I think 38 Specials with solid, flat-faced projectiles (and pretty much all calibers/loads in this performance band) are probably one of the definitive and optimal small game loads under 50 yards.
I recall reading that Skeeter Skelton felt the same and my own humble experience with smaller game has found this to be true.
150'ish or so grains going 800 to 1000 fps punches clean holes and does not destroy meat while absolutely hammering small game dead.
I've used both to shoot a lot of grouse and rabbits that got eaten. I've always wanted to hunt deer with a 9mm carbine. Haven't gotten around to it yet.
From a carbine, 9mm should hit about like a .357 Magnum from a four inch revolver barrel.
Yes, good point. The load I am most enamored with in the carbine pushes a 130gn cast flatnose at 1400-1450. It should work well on deer <100 yds.
The load I am most enamored with in the carbine pushes a 130gn cast flatnose at 1400-1450. It should work well on deer <100 yds.
I carry HC sometimes for defense against bears. But I killed a deer with four 200gr 10mm HC bullets in about 2 seconds all through both lungs at about 1,200 fps impact velocity, and I was unimpressed with the results. It might have worked better if I had hit some bone . However, I always take the double-lung shot when it's offered.
My experience is anecdotal. So, I'm interested in your thoughts and experience. Have you had good success on deer with HC bullets?
I went through this post. Here a few quotes regarding lead bullets (unless I misunderstood something).
Close range and shot place are paramount Less bloodshot than a high velocity .22 hollow point. punches clean holes and does not destroy meat while absolutely hammering small game dead. I killed a deer with four 200gr 10mm HC bullets in about 2 seconds all through both lungs at about 1,200 fps impact velocity, and I was unimpressed with the results. It might have worked better if I had hit some bone.
I agree on the 38special being great for small game; it's typically very accuracy when loaded at mild velocities. Lead bullets are cheap and effective on small critters when properly placed. And that brings me to what I find amusing. It's effective when "properly placed." Lead, HC lead, and big meplates (which is exactly what a wadcutter has) are all recommended for dangerous game. We're talking small game here up to including deer, but results are less than stellar. But hey, when a bear, easily 2x as big as a deer, is munching on you, shoot it with hard cast lead! Need hard cast because shot placement will be hard to achieve under stress, so need something that penetrates deep and hits vitals and stops the attack fast. I find irony in this. "Requires proper placement" "has less bloodshot," "makes clean holes," "no meat destroyed," "unimpressive results." Why do we as a whole keep recommending lead bullets for dangerous game, when they are less than stellar on small game? Don't we want big, bloody, cavernous wound channels that destroy everything in it's path? And yes, penetration is required, that's a given. But that can be achieved with a quality soft point or hollow point. Even a grizzly only requires 20 or so inches of penetration to vitals from just about any front facing angle. What am I missing here?
I went through this post. Here a few quotes regarding lead bullets (unless I misunderstood something).
I agree on the 38special being great for small game; it's typically very accuracy when loaded at mild velocities. Lead bullets are cheap and effective on small critters when properly placed. And that brings me to what I find amusing. It's effective when "properly placed." Lead, HC lead, and big meplates (which is exactly what a wadcutter has) are all recommended for dangerous game. We're talking small game here up to including deer, but results are less than stellar. But hey, when a bear, easily 2x as big as a deer, is munching on you, shoot it with hard cast lead! Need hard cast because shot placement will be hard to achieve under stress, so need something that penetrates deep and hits vitals and stops the attack fast. I find irony in this. "Requires proper placement" "has less bloodshot," "makes clean holes," "no meat destroyed," "unimpressive results." Why do we as a whole keep recommending lead bullets for dangerous game, when they are less than stellar on small game? Don't we want big, bloody, cavernous wound channels that destroy everything in it's path? And yes, penetration is required, that's a given. But that can be achieved with a quality soft point or hollow point. Even a grizzly only requires 20 or so inches of penetration to vitals from just about any front facing angle. What am I missing here?
You are combining too many arguments I think. No mid calibre pistol carts are ideal for large or dangerous game but if you must use them on game that isnt going to be impresseed with the general power of the cartirdge, you are better off choosing penetration. They shoot elephants in africa and a lot of buffalo with FMJ( solid bullets) in big game rifles for the same reason.
Also hardcast or FMJ pushed hard do destroy some meat btw, they will cavitate greater than the bullet diametre, break bones, can even send secondary tissue fragments around.
Again, not really relevant for a "38 special or 9mm at 950fps" thread. The comments on this thread arent meant to apply to all the arguments you have set.
I went through this post. Here a few quotes regarding lead bullets (unless I misunderstood something).
I agree on the 38special being great for small game...
You are combining too many arguments I think. No mid calibre pistol carts are ideal for large or dangerous game but if you must use them on game that isnt going to be impresseed with the general power of the cartirdge, you are better off choosing penetration. They shoot elephants in africa and a lot of buffalo with FMJ( solid bullets) in big game rifles for the same reason.
Also hardcast or FMJ pushed hard do destroy some meat btw, they will cavitate greater than the bullet diametre, break bones, can even send secondary tissue fragments around.
Again, not really relevant for a "38 special or 9mm at 950fps" thread. The comments on this thread arent meant to apply to all the arguments you have set.
The performance of a cast bullet is the same regardless if it's .429 of .357 inches in diameter. It's not like just because the bullet grew a few thousandths fatter it's now this magic killing pill with nuclear bomb performance. It's still going to cut clean circular holes. I'm not talking velocity here, just pure hardcasts bullets. Arrows routinely go through an elk, which is a very large game animal. Can't ask for more penetration than that, and they often die slowly, bleeding to death. African game hunters require penetration because of the size of the animal, but they also pick their shot. Shot placement is key again. Even charging African animals require shot placement to stop. Any decent bullet will cavitate greater than their diameter and break bones. I want a bullet that maximizes that effect, does as much damage as possible in a dangerous game situation. If a bear is charging, I shoot and hit a leg, I want the leg wound to be as big as possible, if I hit center of mass I want it to rip a hole to the heart. I personally, don't think a bullet penciling it's way through the heart and out the ass end is the best option. I just want it to make as massive a wound as possible on it's way to the vitals. Hard cast is not the best option for that. I do agree with your statement that in lesser calibers, penetration should be favored, but given the option for a decent caliber, I'm picking an XTP, or similar type bullet.
I've shot deer with 4570 hc lead and Hornady's leverevelution bullets. The deer died quick both times. I refuse to use the Leverevelution bullets anymore as the meat devastation was horrendous. The exit wound was a fist sized hole. When dangerous game is the issue; however, that's what I want. I don't care if the bullet exits, that just means that fist size hole happened internally, which is even better. Again, I'm assuming the penetration of whatever caliber we are talking about is sufficient enough to reach the vitals.
I went through this post. Here a few quotes regarding lead bullets (unless I misunderstood something).
I agree on the 38special being great for small game...
You are combining too many arguments I think. No mid calibre pistol carts are ideal for large or dangerous game but if you must use them on game that isnt going to be impresseed with the general power of the cartirdge, you are better off choosing penetration. They shoot elephants in africa and a lot of buffalo with FMJ( solid bullets) in big game rifles for the same reason.
Also hardcast or FMJ pushed hard do destroy some meat btw, they will cavitate greater than the bullet diametre, break bones, can even send secondary tissue fragments around.
Again, not really relevant for a "38 special or 9mm at 950fps" thread. The comments on this thread arent meant to apply to all the arguments you have set.
The performance of a cast bullet is the same regardless if it's .429 of .357 inches in diameter. It's not like just because the bullet grew a few thousandths fatter it's now this magic killing pill with nuclear bomb performance. It's still going to cut clean circular holes. I'm not talking velocity here, just pure hardcasts bullets. Arrows routinely go through an elk, which is a very large game animal. Can't ask for more penetration than that, and they often die slowly, bleeding to death. African game hunters require penetration because of the size of the animal, but they also pick their shot. Shot placement is key again. Even charging African animals require shot placement to stop. Any decent bullet will cavitate greater than their diameter and break bones. I want a bullet that maximizes that effect, does as much damage as possible in a dangerous game situation. If a bear is charging, I shoot and hit a leg, I want the leg wound to be as big as possible, if I hit center of mass I want it to rip a hole to the heart. I personally, don't think a bullet penciling it's way through the heart and out the ass end is the best option. I just want it to make as massive a wound as possible on it's way to the vitals. Hard cast is not the best option for that. I do agree with your statement that in lesser calibers, penetration should be favored, but given the option for a decent caliber, I'm picking an XTP, or similar type bullet.
I've shot deer with 4570 hc lead and Hornady's leverevelution bullets. The deer died quick both times. I refuse to use the Leverevelution bullets anymore as the meat devastation was horrendous. The exit wound was a fist sized hole. When dangerous game is the issue; however, that's what I want. I don't care if the bullet exits, that just means that fist size hole happened internally, which is even better. Again, I'm assuming the penetration of whatever caliber we are talking about is sufficient enough to reach the vitals.
You're welcome to your perspective, but I don't agree with you. I think you are setting yourself up for failure, and catastrophic failure at that. Good luck getting fist-sized exits on charging dangerous animals using XTPs in a handgun.
Yeah, statements made specifically regarding small game are being quoted and conflated with statements regarding effects on large game to arrive at counter arguments against solids on large game.
Also, arrows tipped with razor sharp fixed blades kill differently than bullets, but no less efficiently. Animals double lunged by a sharp broadhead die quickly, within seconds.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
The load I am most enamored with in the carbine pushes a 130gn cast flatnose at 1400-1450. It should work well on deer <100 yds.
I carry HC sometimes for defense against bears. But I killed a deer with four 200gr 10mm HC bullets in about 2 seconds all through both lungs at about 1,200 fps impact velocity, and I was unimpressed with the results. It might have worked better if I had hit some bone . However, I always take the double-lung shot when it's offered.
My experience is anecdotal. So, I'm interested in your thoughts and experience. Have you had good success on deer with HC bullets?
I have limited experience shooting deer with hardcast bullets, but my experience parallels shooting deer with a 223. Nearly all the time, they don't react to the shot much, unless the CNS is hit. With 357 though 45 Colt. Even punching both shoulders. The deer haven't even definitively acted wounded, until they fall over. Which has been within 25 yards every time. Like you, I am a shoot, and shoot again guy though. If they don't drop, I shoot again. If they do drop, I make a mad dash to go put one into the base of their skull. I've seen too many rodeos with all sorts of bullets. Handguns and small caliber bullets from rifles don't seem to cause a lot of reaction (unless a CNS hit), but I don't mind. I am not a "shoot, then admire the shot" guy.
In planning to use cast bullets in a 9mm carbine for deer (and bigger animals), the goal will be to shoot a few times, as you described in your experience, but to try to place at least one shot through the shoulders. Those bullets have been accurate enough that a neck/spine shot is a likelihood.
I am curious what you expected out of the hardcast bullets in 10mm through the lungs that didn't happen.
The performance of a cast bullet is the same regardless if it's .429 of .357 inches in diameter. It's not like just because the bullet grew a few thousandths fatter it's now this magic killing pill with nuclear bomb performance. It's still going to cut clean circular holes. I'm not talking velocity here, just pure hardcasts bullets. Arrows routinely go through an elk, which is a very large game animal. Can't ask for more penetration than that, and they often die slowly, bleeding to death. African game hunters require penetration because of the size of the animal, but they also pick their shot. Shot placement is key again. Even charging African animals require shot placement to stop. Any decent bullet will cavitate greater than their diameter and break bones. I want a bullet that maximizes that effect, does as much damage as possible in a dangerous game situation. If a bear is charging, I shoot and hit a leg, I want the leg wound to be as big as possible, if I hit center of mass I want it to rip a hole to the heart. I personally, don't think a bullet penciling it's way through the heart and out the ass end is the best option. I just want it to make as massive a wound as possible on it's way to the vitals. Hard cast is not the best option for that. I do agree with your statement that in lesser calibers, penetration should be favored, but given the option for a decent caliber, I'm picking an XTP, or similar type bullet.
I've shot deer with 4570 hc lead and Hornady's leverevelution bullets. The deer died quick both times. I refuse to use the Leverevelution bullets anymore as the meat devastation was horrendous. The exit wound was a fist sized hole. When dangerous game is the issue; however, that's what I want. I don't care if the bullet exits, that just means that fist size hole happened internally, which is even better. Again, I'm assuming the penetration of whatever caliber we are talking about is sufficient enough to reach the vitals.
Again, these are all arguments separate to the comments made on the thread. What you wrote is the standard 'softpoint vs FMJ/hardcast ' argument, which any hunter knows back to front. All you had to say (IMHO) was "even in small calibres I prefer expanding bullets ". Which is reasonable. I tend to like them as well, which is why you will see me always posting on the lookout for Speer GDHP and Remington GS for 38 special.
Yeah, statements made specifically regarding small game are being quoted and conflated with statements regarding effects on large game to arrive at counter arguments against solids on large game.
That’s a big leap in interpretation.
Exactly, its like someone saying they prefer solid 22LR for slaughtering cows and another guy saying it makes no sense because a 30-06 kills better with softpoints.
I have limited experience shooting deer with hardcast bullets, but my experience parallels shooting deer with a 223. Nearly all the time, they don't react to the shot much, unless the CNS is hit. With 357 though 45 Colt. Even punching both shoulders. The deer haven't even definitively acted wounded, until they fall over. Which has been within 25 yards every time. Like you, I am a shoot, and shoot again guy though. If they don't drop, I shoot again. If they do drop, I make a mad dash to go put one into the base of their skull. I've seen too many rodeos with all sorts of bullets. Handguns and small caliber bullets from rifles don't seem to cause a lot of reaction (unless a CNS hit), but I don't mind. I am not a "shoot, then admire the shot" guy.
In planning to use cast bullets in a 9mm carbine for deer (and bigger animals), the goal will be to shoot a few times, as you described in your experience, but to try to place at least one shot through the shoulders. Those bullets have been accurate enough that a neck/spine shot is a likelihood.
I am curious what you expected out of the hardcast bullets in 10mm through the lungs that didn't happen.
Thanks for the comments HnS. I wasn’t being particularly knowledgeable, but I had read how the wide meplat on HC bullets can create a permanent cavity larger than the bullet, and I was kind of expecting that to happen. But the holes and bullet paths were just the same diameter as the bullets.
On that hunt, I primarily was trying to get my, then 13-yr-old, son his first deer on a friend’s farm after we had been backpack hunting in the NF for a few years without success. It was a few hours before we had to pack up on a Sunday and head home. A few times that trip I had passed up shots on deer so that my boy would have a better chance. For example, one time, he was up in a tree stand and had no shot at a deer because another tree was in the way. Whereas, I had a good shot from the ground. I decided then that tree stands primarily are best left to bow hunters. My boy had decided, as time was expiring, that I should take a deer if I again had a shot and he didn’t because he wanted to be in on a deer kill. So, with my G40, I decided to loop way around in one direction and come back at him from beyond the direction where we had seen some far off deer earlier.
As I was about 150 yards away from, and out of sight of, my boy, a deer walked up profile 55 yards away. I drew and fired. I thought I somehow had missed. I didn’t want the deer to escape wounded if I had hit him or escape unwounded if I had not. So, a millisecond later, I put three more rounds into him. When I walked up to him, he was still twitching. So, I put one in his neck up close to put him out of any agony.
When I walked back to my boy, he said: “Dad, did you get attacked by a bear?”
When we butchered the deer, we saw that all four bullets went through both lungs. My son got his first deer the next weekend.
Just for my own purposes, and acknowledging that numerous people have had great success with HCs, I have moved on from them, and tend to agree with Mountain10mm.
When deer hunting where there are no bears, I just carry hollow-points because I think, from my own perspective, they would be more effective on deer. I’m usually rifle hunting, so I haven’t shot any more deer with a handgun since that one described above. However, this year, we got an unexpected opportunity to hunt on my fiance’s friends’ farm in MD, in a shotgun/straight-walled cartridge only county. My boys got the only two rifled-barrel shotguns I have, and I don't have a rifle chambered in a straight-walled cartridge, except for a 10mm carbine which currently is on my property in Colorado. So, I carried UW-loaded 155gr XTPs that my DW Bruin launches at 1,575 fps. Didn't get a chance to try it out though.
For bigger things, I carry the UW-loaded Lehigh Xtreme Defense or Xtreme Penetrator loads. A few years ago, I did a bunch of research on them, including watching/reading reports about them from successful hunters. They seem to be almost as violent as HPs, but penetrate a lot deeper.
In case you’re bored, here are a few videos of testing them on various media along with HC and HP loads:
I carry HC sometimes for defense against bears. But I killed a deer with four 200gr 10mm HC bullets in about 2 seconds all through both lungs at about 1,200 fps impact velocity, and I was unimpressed with the results. It might have worked better if I had hit some bone . However, I always take the double-lung shot when it's offered.
My experience is anecdotal. So, I'm interested in your thoughts and experience. Have you had good success on deer with HC bullets?
My experience is anecdotal as well. I have found critters unimpressed with double lung shots after being hit with 168 grain .308 Triple Shoks impacting at 2600-2700 fps. My last double lung shot was on a doe antelope that had pieces of lung blown out the exit hole, and it still ran over a berm like nothing had happened. (It went less than 100 yards.) I would not discount hard cast on this basis alone.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
Technically this was a .357 Mag., but the load is more like a powder puff .38 special. Sailed through the rabbit's shoulder with minimal meat damage. Shooting for the freezer I would typically try for a head shot, but I purposely went for the shoulder just to see how destructive the load would be. I was pleased.
My experience is anecdotal as well. I have found critters unimpressed with double lung shots after being hit with 168 grain .308 Triple Shoks impacting at 2600-2700 fps. My last double lung shot was on a doe antelope that had pieces of lung blown out the exit hole, and it still ran over a berm like nothing had happened. (It went less than 100 yards.) I would not discount hard cast on this basis alone.
Thanks for sharing your experience Cheyenne. That's kind of surprising to me.
Every 2x-lung rifle shot I have ever seen was almost instantly fatal, but that could be a coincidence.
For example, my boy's first deer died where he stood:
I've used both to shoot a lot of grouse and rabbits that got eaten. I've always wanted to hunt deer with a 9mm carbine. Haven't gotten around to it yet.
From a carbine, 9mm should hit about like a .357 Magnum from a four inch revolver barrel.
You really have to chrono the ammo to know, and then you have to figure out if the design parameters of the bullet are suitable for use out of a carbine. I have been comparing ammo in a Sig P365 XL against a Ruger PC Carbine. Barnes TAC-XPD 115 gr. +P chronographed within 1 fps in both guns, with a higher ES in the Ruger. One shot from each got into a third 1 gallon water jug. Speer standard pressure 124 Gold Dots showed a 157 fps difference between the two, but the shot I fired from the Sig got into the third 1 gallon water jug while 2 shots fired from the Ruger expanded much more but only got into the second 1 gallon water jug each time. In light of this thread, I will chronograph some 147 grain +P Buffalo Bore out of the Ruger this week, in addition to some Hornady 124 grain XTP Custom. (Of course, the Buffalo Bore sailed completely through 8 water jugs when fired from a Glock 19, and a Lehigh 115 Xtreme Penetrator got into a 9th, so I don't know how much penetration one needs.) I have videos and pictures of the tests if anyone is interested.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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