|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,299
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,299 |
As a buddy of mine put it:
“If I’m shooting through brush, I want it to be farther away from me than closer.”
The closer the brush, the greater the deflection. I don't ever "shoot through brush" but I have in fact missed a buck because I nicked a tiny branch close to me.
“You never need fear a man, no matter what his size. When danger threatens, call on me, and I will equalize.”
Samuel Colt.
�Common sense is genius dressed up in work clothes.� - Ralph Waldo Emerson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,938 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,938 Likes: 7 |
The purpose of the question is that there are many hunting scenarios when a deer is clearly visible but small branches or briar limbs are not. Especially when hunting cut overs or thickly wooded property. Not every hunting shot has the luxury of a completely clear flight path for a bullet. If the deer is clearly visible, but small branches or briar limbs are not, you need a better scope/higher magnification on your rifle.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,913 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,913 Likes: 2 |
The purpose of the question is that there are many hunting scenarios when a deer is clearly visible but small branches or briar limbs are not. Especially when hunting cut overs or thickly wooded property. Not every hunting shot has the luxury of a completely clear flight path for a bullet. Then you don't take the shot. There's more to hunting than shooting the animal. Your reading comprehension seemed impaired. If the obstruction is not visible, how would you decide not to shoot? Save your self righteous attitude for someone else’s post. I’m looking for objective information on bullet type, size, velocity, or construction and it’s effect on deflection or lack of deflection. If you don’t have info on that, keep your inflated sense of ethics to yourself. 😉
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,851
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,851 |
Didn't Newton cover this with his first and second laws of motion? If the round hits something, it will affect the trajectory.
The first law states that an object at rest will stay at rest, and an object in motion will stay in motion unless acted on by a net external force.
The second law states that the rate of change of momentum of a body over time is directly proportional to the force applied, and occurs in the same direction as the applied force.
At any rate, I suck at billiards when I'm trying to deflect moving objects in a predictable manner. No reason for me to chance it on purpose if avoidable.
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."
2 Thessalonians 3:10
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,913 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,913 Likes: 2 |
Very good read, thank you.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,938 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,938 Likes: 7 |
Your reading comprehension seemed impaired. If the obstruction is not visible, how would you decide not to shoot? Save your self righteous attitude for someone else’s post. I’m looking for objective information on bullet type, size, velocity, or construction and it’s effect on deflection or lack of deflection. If you don’t have info on that, keep your inflated sense of ethics to yourself. 😉
One with high reading comprehension would have gleaned from this thread that there is no such thing as a "brush busting" bullet, or cartridge. And that there has never been any relevant statistical data to show that any bullet form is reliably deflected to a lesser degree than any other. Shooting through brush? Just don't do it!
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 637 Likes: 2
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 637 Likes: 2 |
One of the popular gun rags published an article a few decades ago wherein the author attempted to lend evidence to his theories by shooting through a bank of hardwood dowels. But the noise in his data overwhelmed any statistical evidence.
I wonder if that is the one I remember, which had the author deciding that a moderate velocity range was most important. Too fast and too slow were bad, and bullet shape and construction didn't matter much. Bruce As I remember the article I read, which was likely thirty years ago. The author suggested high SD and high RPM. But his targets were far too randomized to offer proof. My recollection is a bit different (IF I'm referring to the same article). I THINK (am far from sure) that the article was in Guns And Ammo. Anyway, my memory of the test was that it concluded that there really is no such thing as a brush buster. Long, heavy for caliber bullets deflected least but were still likely to badly miss the point of aim. Back in the day we were indoctrinated with the idea that 45/70's, 35 Remingtons, 444 Marlins,and the like would bore through brush, branches, and young Redwoods on their unwavering path to the target. I do my best to be cognizant of any obstruction - even tall grass stems.
ttpoz
in silvam ne ligna feras
(don't carry logs into the forest)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 4,852 Likes: 6
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 4,852 Likes: 6 |
As a buddy of mine put it:
“If I’m shooting through brush, I want it to be farther away from me than closer.”
The closer the brush, the greater the deflection. I don't ever "shoot through brush" but I have in fact missed a buck because I nicked a tiny branch close to me. Where we hunt, with hounds and running deer, if you don’t shoot through brush, you don’t shoot. His brother shot at a running deer with a 338WM. The shot went through an 8” tree and killed the deer on the other side.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,867
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,867 |
Bob Hagel did it. Even the .458 deflected.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,045
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,045 |
In your favor? Yes sometimes.
About ten years ago elk hunting, I was laying across a big boulder watching a canyon and apposing ridge in front of me. I had a Ruger #1 in 7mm STW loaded with 162 gr Hornady btsp at 3200 fps mv. I had been there about an hour and had lasered dozens of landmarks before I saw a nice bull approaching up a trail in the bottom of the canyon.
I knew the trail passed through a clearing directly in front of me at 400 yds. And I could see the bull calmly walking with a pause about every twenty yards to look over his shoulder. I watched him come for about 300 yds.
When he got to the clearing, he paused just as I expected him to and I touched the trigger with the crosshairs about six inches above the center of his heart.
The bull took two jumps toward the steep part of the mountain, then decided that was more than he could manage. He turned around and took about a dozen steps downhill, then stopped just behind a screen of willows directly alongside of the trail.
Through the screen, I could vaguely see him standing with his front legs apart and his nose in the dirt. He probably would have stood there until he tipped over, but again elk are amazing tough animals. If he had taken off down the trail he had come up, it would have added many hours to our retrieval.
So, I approximated where the aim point was and pulled the trigger again.
When I skinned the bull, I found the first entry point right over the heart on the left side. On the right side there appeared to be an exit hole just a little higher than the entry on the other side. I was shooting at a sharp downward angle, I would guess about 25 degrees. The hole on the right side was about big enough for me to stuff a fist into, and was filled with hair. I could only deduce the bullet had impacted a branch and become massively deformed. But fortunately the bullet only had to fly about ten more feet to hit the elk.
Did you buy a new scope?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,938 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,938 Likes: 7 |
Very good read, thank you. Interesting, but meaningless. The sample size is far too small to have any statistical significance. And there is no way to determine how each bullet impacted intervening twigs. Which bullets barely glanced off a tiny twig? Which bullets impacted twigs squarely and cut the twig in half? Which bullets went through the brush unscathed? Not to mention the author invalidated his test from the very start by shooting through a target before his bullets even got to the brush patch. His conclusion is valid though, wherein he stated "the only ethical answer is to wait for a clear shot."
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 9,644 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 9,644 Likes: 2 |
Ross Seyfried. Not just a good gun writher IMO, but a myth buster as well. He didn't talk chit, he did it, proved or disproved it. Then wrote about it.
Bought an arm load of different size wooden dowels. Drove them into the ground in front of his intended target. Tried a lot of different cartridges from high speed stuff to fat bullet stuff that had been called brush busters for decades. He replaced dowels as needed.
His conclusion was that there was no true brush buster cartridge or bullet. Of course some fared better than others, but many bullets thought to be worthy deflected enough to completely miss the vitals of life sized critter silhouettes.
Guns & Ammo sometime in the 80's or 90's.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,161 Likes: 13
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,161 Likes: 13 |
As a buddy of mine put it:
“If I’m shooting through brush, I want it to be farther away from me than closer.”
The closer the brush, the greater the deflection. Probably true, but here's an example of why that might not make much difference: In Namibia I shot at at big eland bull around 100 yards yards away. The bull stood absolutely broadside in a clearing surrounded by thick thornbush--except for a single, very thin thin thorn-branch about as thick as my little finger, right in front of the "pocket" behind the big shoulder joint. My rifle was a .338 Winchester Magnum, shooting 250-grain Nosler Partitions at around 2700 fps, and I figured I couldn't hit the skinny branch with a box of ammo, so held right behind the shoulder and pulled the trigger A small dust-cloud erupted right where I aimed, and though the eland ran into the nearby brush the PH turned around and shook my hand. We waited a minute or two, then started trailing. There wasn't any blood, but in 100 yards or so found the eland standing, head down, in another clearing. I shot again, dropping the bull. We found the first bullet had hit the skinny thorn-branch and turned sideways, leaving an "entrance hole" that was a perfect silhouette of a 250-grain Partition--surrounded by whirls in the short hair where the thorn-branch had actually whipped against the hide. Obviously the branch was VERY close to the bull, yet the bullet had turned 90 degrees.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,938 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,938 Likes: 7 |
In your favor? Yes sometimes.
About ten years ago elk hunting, I was laying across a big boulder watching a canyon and apposing ridge in front of me. I had a Ruger #1 in 7mm STW loaded with 162 gr Hornady btsp at 3200 fps mv. I had been there about an hour and had lasered dozens of landmarks before I saw a nice bull approaching up a trail in the bottom of the canyon.
I knew the trail passed through a clearing directly in front of me at 400 yds. And I could see the bull calmly walking with a pause about every twenty yards to look over his shoulder. I watched him come for about 300 yds.
When he got to the clearing, he paused just as I expected him to and I touched the trigger with the crosshairs about six inches above the center of his heart.
The bull took two jumps toward the steep part of the mountain, then decided that was more than he could manage. He turned around and took about a dozen steps downhill, then stopped just behind a screen of willows directly alongside of the trail.
Through the screen, I could vaguely see him standing with his front legs apart and his nose in the dirt. He probably would have stood there until he tipped over, but again elk are amazing tough animals. If he had taken off down the trail he had come up, it would have added many hours to our retrieval.
So, I approximated where the aim point was and pulled the trigger again.
When I skinned the bull, I found the first entry point right over the heart on the left side. On the right side there appeared to be an exit hole just a little higher than the entry on the other side. I was shooting at a sharp downward angle, I would guess about 25 degrees. The hole on the right side was about big enough for me to stuff a fist into, and was filled with hair. I could only deduce the bullet had impacted a branch and become massively deformed. But fortunately the bullet only had to fly about ten more feet to hit the elk.
Did you buy a new scope? I did not need to buy a new scope. I was using a 4-12X42 Burris FF II at 12X. I could plainly see there was no clear shot through the brush. But as the brush was very close to the target, and the worst result possible was that a deflected bullet might damage some meat on a critically injured animal. I considered and took the shot. I NEVER have, nor will I take such a shot on a healthy game animal.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 9,450
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 9,450 |
Very good read, thank you. If there was a "Topic of the week" for this forum, I think yours merits it. In my neck of the woods, there's lots of underbrush. It's far more likely to see bucks in dense wooded movement than in fields come rifle season. Any honest whitetail hunter will face this dilemma as to whether or not to take the shot and why (why not.) Forget the critics. That's their personality disorders kicking in. There really should be more testing available. It's probably just a matter of finding it. I vaguely remember someone with a gun channel doing a deflection test like the write up posted, but can't remember who for the life of me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 16,971 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 16,971 Likes: 1 |
Most people don’t take into consideration the RPM’s a bullet is spinning at when they hit something like a branch, some really crazy stuff can happen.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,938 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,938 Likes: 7 |
Ross Seyfried. Not just a good gun writher IMO, but a myth buster as well. He didn't talk chit, he did it, proved or disproved it. Then wrote about it.
Bought an arm load of different size wooden dowels. Drove them into the ground in front of his intended target. Tried a lot of different cartridges from high speed stuff to fat bullet stuff that had been called brush busters for decades. He replaced dowels as needed.
His conclusion was that there was no true brush buster cartridge or bullet. Of course some fared better than others, but many bullets thought to be worthy deflected enough to completely miss the vitals of life sized critter silhouettes.
Guns & Ammo sometime in the 80's or 90's. That sounds like the same article I referenced.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,251 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,251 Likes: 4 |
Bob Hagel did it. Even the .458 deflected. And John Wooters and John Sundra and Jack O'Connor and probably a few more I can't think of right off hand. I still have several of those old articles around.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,938 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,938 Likes: 7 |
Bob Hagel did it. Even the .458 deflected. And John Wooters and John Sundra and Jack O'Connor and probably a few more I can't think of right off hand. I still have several of those old articles around. Did any identify that "magic bullet"?
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,045
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,045 |
Got you it was the second shot. I use leupold vx2’s and there are always sticks, stems, and twigs i can’t see. Lots of times more magnification actually makes the problem worse rather than better. But we are talking eastern hardwoods and not field hunting. 75 yards is a long shot with most being 50 and under.
And i have shot deer that hit something i did not see. I shot a buck standing about 75 yards uphill from me with a 338 win mag and a 225gr hornady sst bullet. Scope was a burris ff2 3-9x40, should have been plenty enough optic. Still couldnt see the twig. The bullet hit that and broke in half went about halfway in the deer and tumbled all the way 90 degrees and lodged in the close side ham. That piece weighed 130 some grains, the other piece totally missed the deer as there was no other hole. The deer stood there probably 5 seconds and then took a dead run straight down the hill at me and fell over.
If you are going to kill mature deer here you have to go where they are and it generally is not in a field or clearing unless it is night time.
|
|
|
|
|
269 members (21, 12344mag, 2500HD, 10ring1, 1lessdog, 160user, 27 invisible),
1,758
guests, and
1,110
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,632
Posts18,492,998
Members73,977
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
