Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Advice on .416 bullets for buf

CA...I have a box of 400gr Swift A-frames and a box of Speer AGS solids. If you're interested...the Swifts are $90 plus shipping. Speer AGS solids are $125 plus shipping. I had a lot of success shooting buffalo with Swift bullets, and Speer AGS bullets. Sad to say, my African hunting days are but memories, (twenty-four trips in thirty years) so I won't be requiring any further use of these bullets.

As an aside... I've also shot several buffalo with Jack Carter's original Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, and Sledge Hammer solids. The first buffalo I shot in Zim was in a mealie field chewing his cud. The conditions were such, we got within 20yds of him before he realized he had company. He slowly turned his head, saw us, and jumped to his feet and turned to face us. I shot him in the chest with the Bear Claw, and he took the hit, stumbled, turned 90 degrees to my right, and I shot him again in the shoulder with a Sledge Hammer. That was that. The solid went thru, and the soft was found in the hip next to the bone. A picture perfect mushroom. Those bullets behaved as advertised. My rifle: M-70 .416 Taylor. I only shot 400gr bullets, and I settled on 2350fps as the best (in my rifle) for accuracy with both soft/solid.

Tsibindi, I really appreciate that offer. That’s very kind of you. However, a charge from Swift Bullets hit my credit card yesterday. I had a couple boxes of A-frames on back order and I guess Swift has finally shipped them. I went from not many bullets a couple weeks ago to now having more bullets to test for groups than I know what to do with. In addition to a box of 350 gr TTSX, I’ve got boxes of 400 grain in Swift A-frames, Cutting Edge Raptors, Nosler Partitions & Trophy Bonded Bearclaws. The only ones missing are TSX, which I’m supposed to get in April. In solids I’ve got Trophy Bonded, Cutting Edge and Woodleighs. I do appreciate your offer though.

Good thing I have 6 pounds of Reloader 15.

CA...Best of luck with your loads, and subsequent encounter(s) with Syncerus Caffer.

Wow. This has been a great thread, lots of info.

I do appreciate Fire contributors helping each other with hard to get components during a time of ammo and component famine.

I hope all this passes and we get back to "normal", whatever that's gonna look like.

Things could and may well get worse with this nutty, woke administration in D.C.

Maybe some of this mess will wake up those who haven't been politically engaged, or even that concerned.

When it affects us personally, we tend to pay more attention. This stuff is getting pretty personal, IMO.

DF

I believe it’s going to get a lot more “personal” real soon. I have a feeling the next 2 years are going to be very long. And if the Dems hold both houses after the mid-terms, the following 2 will be the longest of our lifetime.

When I hunted Zim with my son and daughter a couple years ago with the recently late Phillip Smythe, he said he preferred all his buffalo hunters use TSX bullets due to their unfailing penetration.
My daughter used the same 300 gr TSX bullets in her .416 Remington as she carries in Alaska and they worked perfectly
I used the new Hornady DGX in my 458 and after seeing their performance Phillip said they also would get his recommendation

John's not going to like you. All of mine have recommended the TSX in some form.

Sighted in my bud's .416 Rem M-70 yeesterday. Bill Hober at Swift said to sight at 50 yds. Well, the most convenient was 67 yds. I was using a 4'x4' piece of 1/4" Lauan plywood that I had covered with black plastic sheeting, painted it white and painted red targets. It acts a lot like a Dirty Bird target. There was a limb sticking up from a fallen tree (previous hurricane carnage) and I leaned the plywood target against it. That's the why of the 67 yds. I was using the standing bench, which IMO, is the only way to shoot a big gun.

The gun had previoiusly been sighted at a hundred with 350 gr. Speer over 74 gr 4064. I was wanting my bud to shoot it some, but he didn't. So, I pulled those bullets and loaded the 400's. I had a collet for my Forster bullet puller, but due to the hard Lee Factory die crimp, it wouldn't pull the bullet. So, I ran the round up in the press until just the bullet showed, applied Vice Grips, and pulled the bullet. Of course, no salvage of those bullets. Vice Grips "made an impression"... BTW, I put a hard Lee Factory Crimp die crimp on all of these rounds. The bullets I seat aren't going anywhere.

I tweaked the powder charges to 75 gr. 4064 for the softs, 77 gr for the solids, per Bill Hober's recommendations. That's the load he uses in his factory ammo. As previously discussed it evidently takes just a bit more powder to bring the solids up to the same POI as the softs.

I sighted in with the 400 gr. NPT's (first target). First shot was about 2" low, then I moved the scope, shot two, moved it again and shot two. The centered two were the last shot.

Then in the second photo, I shot 400 gr. SAF's and they were about as accurate as the NPT's with identical POI. And all this with the Trijicon triangle, with which I find I can shoot pretty consistently. It wouldn't be my pick for LR shooting, but does great for what it was designed to do.

Then, the Swift Breakaway solids, third photo. They weren't quite as accurate as the softs, but they do cycle thru the action really slick. That's the idea behind the design. Some of the competition's solids with big HP's, don't cycle as slick as these. These bullets cost $7.17 each (Midway), Larry doesn't have the best prices and of course he doesn't have the bullets.... A box of Swift Breakaway ammo in .416 Rem is over $200. A box of 400 gr. SAF's is pushing $150.

I'm going to load both NPT's and SAF's for Africa. My bud will shoot which one the PH prefers. I see no difference at the range and would doubt there'll be much, if any, difference on a buff.

The Solids aren't as accurate, but as I told my bud, by the time you're down to solids, MOA accuracy means nothing. You're then at a minute of a buff, and probably one on the move. BTW, these 400 gr. NPT's and SAF's are more accurate than the 350 gr. Speers, which shot about 1 1/2" at a hundred. Take these 67 yd. groups out to a hundred, I think they'd be close to MOA. But just two rounds? Not 10... Components are scarce and this isn't the gun to shoot 10 shot groups...

Here are the photos. The only way I can tell the SAF from the NPT, the SAF has no lead above the jacket, whereas the NPT has a tip of lead showing. Closer exam shows a slightly different ogive. The Breakaway is sorta weird looking, but made to cycle smoothly and that they do, like real slick. Slick cycling in the heat of battle should negate complaints about the cost...

DF

Phil,

Good to know the "improved" Hornady DGX worked well. The first version was a little dicey, according to my PH friends.

Have killed buffalo, and been standing alongside hunting partners who killed them, with Barnes TSXs, Combined Technology Fail Safes, the late lamented North Fork soft-nose, Nosler Partitions, Swift A-Frames, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and probably a couple I've forgotten. Have also discussed buffalo "softs" with 25-30 PHs. The cartridges have run from the .375 H&H to .458 Lott.

Probably the most surprising comments came from John Van Der Meulen, the father of the first PH I hunted with, who like my good friend Kevin Thomas grew up in what was then Rhodesia, and acquired his early experience on buffalo in the same way as Kevin, by culling hundreds on ranches. John's choice of a "soft" back then (30 years ago) was the .258 Winchester 500-grain "solid" made with a gilding-metal jacket--because it expanded somewhat ("riveted") yet penetrated well--usually without exiting, important in herd shooting.

John, I'm sure you meant .458 Win.

Bill Hober is sure proud of his Breakaway Solids at $7+ per bullet. Well that's Larry's price at Midway. He had the price, just not the bullets. I got them a bit cheaper, in fact, the last box Graf and Son had. They sure are slick cycling, and from what I've read and heard, that's what the new design is all about.

When the tip breaks away, what's left is not too unlike the Hydrostatically Stabilized solids by another maker. Those bullets are said to drive straighter, not veer as some older solids were known to do. But, solids with large HP evidently weren't the slickest feeding due to the nose design. Bill Hober reportedly solved that problem, retaining the effectiveness of the HP design. He said it's the most tested solid ever. I believe him.

They don't seem to be cutting edge accurate compared to the NPT and SAF, but are no doubt good enough for their designated purpose. And, I didn't shoot enough to really say for sure. But as hard as those components are to find, I'm not shooting a bunch of them. A few representative shots will have to do.

Needless to say, my bud was very happy with how his rifle shot those 400's. It's an old push feed M-70, but it does have a new Shilen barrel, so why not.

DF

DF,
Looks like you're buddy is all set to go and got good accuracy from the info that Bill provided.

Yeah, I appreciate all the help from you guys here on the Fire, especially you.

Those components are just about impossible to find and I got what he needed.

I was fortunate that Bill Hober answered the phone at Swift. He was very helpful, sorta bristled a bit when I mentioned Partitions.

So, I didn't mention that unmentionable subject again. He was quite generous with his time. I think he enjoyed the visit and helping me out.

Just two shots a group doesn't make, but does give an idea. I had two almost touching twice with the 400 NPT's as I adjusted the Trijicon 1-4. I was impressed how well I could shoot that triangle and how well the gun grouped. Those targets were perfect. The triangle formed a pie shape in the bottom of that red dot, which turned out to be just the right size. The old Model 70 trigger is about perfect, which helped. I used a Bud's bag with heavy sand which worked pretty well.

I think the NPT's may actually edge the SAF's regarding accuracy, but I didn't shoot enough to prove that. The NPT's were a bit closer, twice. But the difference is negligible. Either one of those bullets at 2,375 fps will bust about anything walking, short of an ele. And these solids would probably do a job on one of those.

Bud leaves in May and I look forward to photos and his report.

DF

The the only two things you need to know about buffalo bullets is Swift A Frames are great in all conditions, and solids suck. All of them.

I hear ya.

I’m just following what bud’s PH is recommending.

He’ll be prepared. I’ve done my part. Now it’s up to him.

DF

Hey Model70Guy, care to share why all solids suck? Just wondering. I'm sure you have your reasons.

These solids don’t seem to group with the SAF or NPT. There are different types solids, different designs. Sure some are better than others.

But I’ve never killed a critter with a solid. Will defer to those who have.

DF

Simple enough really. I've shot buffalo on 3 continents. Most of that was Asiatics in Australia on cull. Me being me I experimented with bullets because by my reckoning it would be a terrible waste of an opportunity not to. There's lots of good softs..Solids are all tied at " you might as well shoot a pig with a pellet gun" I fully understand the theory behind second shot solids but just don't agree with it anymore. If you have to shoot an outgoer don't even think about threading a bullet through 2 bales of wet hay for a heart shot. Breaking his hip is too easy and its not going anywhere after that. Another thing I know for sure is buffalo run whatever way they want when when they get that first hit.

I don't know much, but some personal records are 14 without moving my feet, and 29 in a day. The other thing I know for sure is a PHs favorite bullet is whatever is on your belt.. Most of them can't afford to hunt buffalo on their own dime.

+1 on solids suck

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that the primary reason buffalo got such a reputation for being hard to kill was the erratic results of cup-and-core "softs," and not just in smaller calibers like .375 but .40+ cartridges. Which is why so many PH's recommended solids.

If I ever hunt buffalo again (which may or may not happen) will use a .375 H&H and some brand of monolithic in the 270-grain range, and not bother with solids.

From what I'm seeing (I'm not a buff hunter) and hearing, some PH thinking may be regional. For example I've heard of more than one Zim PH preferring TSX's.

Whereas in RSA, soft, solid combo seems more prevalent. Now this is a small sampling of reports. But it makes sense that PH's talk and share what works best for them and their clients. And, I guess that could be regional. Would appreciate thought on that.

DF

Buffalo got a reputation of turning bullet-proof after the first shot from people with only one soft in their rifle, and poor reasoning skills. Plains game got a reputation for tenaciously running after good hits from people who shouldn't be running buffalo bullets in their deer rifles. Well, that and a herd animals instinct to run with the herd instead of making a short run and trying to hide from you like a whitetail.