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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,440 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,440 Likes: 1 |
got 13 tags for the fall coming. all but one will be filled with a 75gr eld-m from a 20" 8 twist tikka.
have to step up to the mighty 6br to dump the ironside elk. What’s your muzzle velocity? Pharm he has 39 pages of this B.S. over on that other forum linked in this thread, RokSliders or whatever it is. 39 pages of B.S. so deep you need a life boat. Ha Ha yeah I saw that.
Dog I rescued in January ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/yYDjsxrQ/IMG-0124.jpg)
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,440 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,440 Likes: 1 |
I have used the 223 on deer to know it works and that there are shot angles I would take with my 7-08 loaded with partitions that I would not even consider taking with one of my 223 rifles. My 7-08 is lighter than my lightest 223. In modern times where we all have a variety of rifles why can't we use the best tools available?
Dog I rescued in January
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,458 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,458 Likes: 2 |
In modern times where we all have a variety of rifles why can't we use the best tools available? Maybe we are. Maybe we just don't agree on what is best or even what best means. Maybe we aren't. Maybe we're bored to tears with "best" and want to try something else. Or maybe we're bored with people who think what they feel is best is somehow best for everyone else, no creativity or curiosity allowed. Maybe we're tired of such people because they act like democrat thought police. Maybe. Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Here be dragons ...
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,980
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2005
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Well for one the fellow I was responding to stated that he was going deer hunting, does specifically, and that he would hate to wound one.
Now that said, you state that not every shot lands where it’s supposed to and that being your reasoning for choosing the 45/70. Whether the shot goes where intended or not boils down to shot placement. If you can’t place the bullet where it belongs don’t take the shot. Once the sear breaks the shooter has no control. Animal movement and wind are just two factors that can change an otherwise good shot into something else. There are no guarantees. Even assuming stuff happens, which I agree it does to everyone eventually. How much margin for error does the 45/70 give us over a 22cf? All the frontal area math you posted goes out the window when we use expanding bullets, assuming they actually expand. Reference the pictures in the link to the Rokslide thread, my experience mirrors theirs. The one 45-70 bullet I've recovered expanded to .80" average and .98" maximum. Are you suggesting a .bullet fired from a .223 will do that? My frontal area math is fine. A deer my wife shot last fall using a 223/77TMK had an approximately 2” hole through the organs that were in the bullet’s path. What about “eating right up to the hole” with the 45/70? Everything I’ve shot with a 45/70 has had a narrow wound path, nothing like a high velocity rifle cartridge, even a 22 caliber one.
I’m thinking that the only thing a 45/70 has going for it in this case is breaking heavy bones. But deer don’t have any heavy bones really. The ability to break heavy bones and the ability to penetrate both depend on the same factors - the amount of energy and momentum transferred to the target and the time and manner in which that transfer occurs. A bullet cannot transfer energy or momentum it doesn't possess. A good shot is a good shot and a bad shot a bad one once we take crappy bullets out of the equation. Use any bullets you like, I'll still take my .45-70 over a .223 for the mulies we have around here, and especially for elk and larger. (The OP's question was about "big game", not just deer.) For smaller deer and antelope it wouldn't be as much of a concern. As I've stated before, most of the elk I've taken probably would have fallen to my .22-250. It is the "probably" that makes me feel more comfortable with heavier, fatter bullets. YMMV You are an expert on wounding chit so you would know.
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,831 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,831 Likes: 4 |
ya know, I'd bet I could drop an elk for subsistence with a 223, if that was all I had.... but I wouldn't do it voluntarily to see if it would work.
and even tho I am a bolt guy, I'd want an AR for a couple of fast follow up shots.
If I had to use a 22 cal, I'd want it to be the Swift or 22.250....
that being said, a 243 looks like a major step up....
I know you don't need a big caliber to drop an elk or deer, but why do people like to see how "low can they go"?
Guess any are fine, If you shooting your elk out the bedroom window in the yard...
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,252
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2020
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223's bounce off.
the campfire says so
whatever
pharm.. i went back to trueing my velocity rather then chronograph but assuming .45bc it's 2875 basically on the nut.
rl-15 seems to hold a bit tighter groups but most critters (antelope, whitetail, mule deer) i shoot inside of 300, and most well inside of that. rough guess 10% are shot in that rough 500ish yard mark..
Last edited by Ndbowhunter; 06/10/21.
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 132
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OP
Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 132 |
Rl15 is almost all I use anymore. 5.56 and 7.62. Known accuracy windows for the win.
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 5,030 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 5,030 Likes: 2 |
They will kill deer. I have hunted with people that used them. I have also had to spend half a day several times helping them find their dead deer.
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,485
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2014
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223 isn’t legal where I hunt for deer & pretty sure it isn’t legal for elk anywhere. Like some on here I believe that I shoot well enough to make head shots but I wouldn’t want to be limited to that to harvest an animal reliably. The generation that thinks a 308 recoils heavily seems to love 223 &6.5 for everything.
I like elk burger & venison loin so much I want to be prepared for any reasonable distance & angle. For me that is 7 mag with 150 grain TTSX for deer & 300 Weatherby 180grain TTSX for elk. I practice at ranges beyond where little cartridges would be effective hoping to be able to get close but ready if I can’t.
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,791 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,791 Likes: 1 |
7 Has good advice and bows are even worse!!
Molon Labe
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,250 Likes: 12
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,250 Likes: 12 |
223 isn’t legal where I hunt for deer & pretty sure it isn’t legal for elk anywhere. It is legal for elk in Alaska, Idaho and Montana. Maybe more states. That is not an endorsement, just a statement.
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1 |
That is not an endorsement, just a statement.
Wait...you're not gonna do like they did in that other thread and " Promote" it.... 
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 18,933 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 18,933 Likes: 2 |
They will kill deer. I have hunted with people that used them. I have also had to spend half a day several times helping them find their dead deer. 223 isn’t legal where I hunt for deer & pretty sure it isn’t legal for elk anywhere. It is legal for elk in Alaska, Idaho and Montana. Maybe more states. That is not an endorsement, just a statement. Pretty bad when a guy has to start putting disclaimers at the end of a post.
The last time that bear ate a lawyer he had the runs for 33 days!
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,920
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,920 |
Mikey will be along shortly to join the fray…..
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,485
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,485 |
I stand corrected. It shouldn’t be legal anywhere should have been my statement. I get that anything can be killed with a 22. My Dads family in South Dakota used a 222 Remington for their new kid or woman’s deer rifle. With good or even mediocre bullets it killed lots of mule deer. No recoil helps the more timid newcomers who might flinch otherwise.
But the idea that you would pursue a 400+ lb animal renowned for toughness with a 22 caliber under 100 grain bullet makes no sense at all to anyone who plans to eat what they shoot & recover every animal shot.
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,158 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,158 Likes: 4 |
Back in the 80’s I used a 223 mostly with Blackhills 55 grain remanufactured ammunition. Dropped a few deer with spine shots. Ranges were close and almost always a running shot.
I couldn’t wait to get into a 30-06 or 300.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,558 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,558 Likes: 1 |
As a general rule, no it should not be used
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 132
Campfire Member
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OP
Campfire Member
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Posts: 132 |
Ran out of 77 TMK. Ended up using regular 77 sierras. 6 point down, roughly a 75 yard run.
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Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 171
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 171 |
A thermal pig hunt is on my bucket list.
If I ever draw I’d love to chase an elk with one.
Nice buck!!! This right here is what worries me. A .223 has no business taking down a 600#+ elk. Ive seen them eat lead from large 30's (properly placed), like I eat Skittles. I agree. Yeah, you hear about elk being taken with them. But, you never hear how many they wound. Somehow that never comes up in the bragging. Have some respect for the animals and use enough gun to do it right the 1st time. AGREED!
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