Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 9.3 vs. 35 (again)

They wouldn't be the first to publish a loading manual with no real idea of what the pressures were.

Power pro varmint is usually used in 22-250 type cartridges and it is 100 fps faster than the other powders. Speer used it in the 35 Whelen for lighter weights up to 220 grains.

My concern is that without pressure tested data, there is a fair amount of guessing. And if you have the data, why not publish it ?

I know for a fact that Barnes pressure tests their load data on Olher equipment but do not publish the pressure data. Few do

Actually quite a few companies include pressure with their handloading data, whether paper manuals or on-line, including Accurate, Lyman, Ramshot, and Hodgdon--which also provides pressure for Winchester and IMR brand powders. Don't know why others don't.

Maybe I am the exception...but I often take a liking to a particular bullet, then go about assembling a gun/cartridge once the bullet is decided (and stock piled) Examples are the Speer 270 gr 9.3 MM. 220 grain HDY and Noslers. 75 grain Speer flat point. Any of the Sierra semi points. I almost lost all composure when Barnes dropped the 125X ( killed six deer and two bears with as many bullets) ! Nothing like confidence (experience proven) in the one component that matters most.

My .358 Norma Magnum (custom barreled by the old Montana Rifleman Company in '99) has a 1:12" twist, and is very accurate with bullets ranging from a Speer 180 grain flat nose to the 310 grain Woodleigh. My most accurate load is the 200 grain Hornady Spire Point coming out the chute just under 3,000 fps. In fact, it tends to like shorter bullet more than longer bullets, shooting the aforementioned Hornadys and 210 grain Partitions more accurately than anything else.

My .35 Whelan (barreled by the same company) has a 1:14" twist, and handles bullets from 180 through 250 grains just fine. It's most accurate load is a 250 grain Speer at 2,600 fps. It also likes the 250 grain Spire Point at a slightly lower velocity. It tends to shoot 225-250 grain bullets better than the 200-210 grainers.

So my 12" twist rifle likes short bullets, and my 14" twist rifle likes long bullets.

Ballistics......

Who makes a 210 grain 35 caliber bullet?

I have owned the 9.3X62 and the .35 Whelen as well as a .338-06. If forced to shed two of them, the .35 Whelen will be the survivor. Prejudicial?.....of course, but it's my choice and I really don't need a reason. The Whelen is a surprising performer.

I have posted on this minutiae before:

If you want a rifle that can be used with (usually) cheap and easily available handgun bullets, pick the .35 Whelen. In normal times factory ammo is usually more available in North America, though apparently no Campfire members ever use factory ammo.)

If you want a rifle that consistently handles a wide range of bullets ever 250 grains, including monolithics, pick the 9.3x62. (Oh, and it's also legal for "dangerous game" in some African countries, while the .35 Whelen isn't. That said, I have found a little bit of money usually convinced African officials to bend their rules.)

Yea, my PH referred to them as the "local taxing authorities"...

John;
Good afternoon, I hope that springs doing what it's supposed to for you folks down there and that all who matter to you are well.

I've had friends and family travel a fair bit in Africa as well as parts of Asia.

They too found that "baksheesh" carefully applied could make problems go away.

Or maybe they just heard that John, yes - perhaps that's a better way of phrasing it anymore?

Thanks for the chuckle and all the best to you and Eileen.

Dwayne

I believe there is no free lunch and 2700 with a 250, in a whelen, isn't happening without some pressure. I had an interesting session once with some leverevolution powder in a 35 Whelen. I was, of course, winging it since there is no published data. The first couple of shots registered about 2580,( then one went over 2640 and the fourth shot read 2770fps! I stopped the experiment right there. Surprisingly, there were no real pressure signs but the fast shot hit six inches high. GD

Hi Dwayne,

Glad I gave you a chuckle! I have experienced the difference a little extra "baksheesh" can make in Africa several times in various countries. In fact it has been subject to inflation, or perhaps more accurately more exposure to "rich Americans." When I hunted South Africa for the first time 30 years ago, you could tip a porter at the Johannesburg airport 20 Rand (at the time around $2.50 U.S.) and they'd be happy. The last time I went was in 2015, and they wanted $20 U.S--around 280 Rand at today exchange rate This actually wasn't a bad deal, since the Joburg airport has grown considerably, and finding the damn customs area was far more complicated!

We're doing fine down here in "southern Alberta."

Best,
John

Well, not to be flippant, but NO velocity is happening without SOME pressure. The question is how much. It's surprising how few folks know the SAAMI max for the .35 Whelen is 62K PSI. It is by no means a low pressure cartridge though many (including Remington) have loaded it as if it were for a long time. It is not good for folks who have not yet tried the "new" powders in their few really exceptional applications, to throw out unfounded comments doubting the results. An example is Reloader 26 with 150 grain bullets in the 270 Win. Another is PP 2000 MR in the 35 Whelen. Both of those add at least 100 FPS to what was previously achievable at similar or lower pressures.
I have not run RL-26 in my 270s (yet!) but have run 2000MR extensively in the Whelen with 250s and 225s, as well as Varmint for 200 Grains. I've had my rifle for 30 years, and back when it was newer I experienced the only blown primer I have ever had in 40 years of handloading, trying to hit 2600 with AA 2520 and 250s. (Hey, I was young and dumb). With PP2000MR, I stopped at 2650 with the 250 Partition (1.2 grains below Speer's max) just because that was where shooting the 7.5 pound rifle stopped being fun (and it was shooting under 0.5 MOA!)
Don't question the Partition versus HotCor comparison because I have tested them both in my rifle and they are near perfect analogs - the same charge produces the same velocity, same CHE, and same POI, so I use the 250 HotCor for initial workup when trying a new powder I eventually hope to use for the 250 Partition.
My rifle with 65 grains 2000MR gives 2650' with only .0002" initial case head expansion, and then no further expansion on subsequent loadings. I can shoot this a long, long time before I wear out a round of brass (in fact, I have yet to wear out a case since I started using 2000MR three years ago), but back in the day, I couldn't hit this speed with even the best powder without ruining the case. I have no doubt that 2700' is a perfectly reasonable max that Speer published with 66.2 gr and that brass would have quite reasonable life at that level.

I'm very interested in any experiences people that have actually tried 2000MR with 250 or 225 grain bullets in the 35 Whelen have had that are DIFFERENT than what I described above.
I found that with 225s, 2000MR is at the limit of what you can get into the case and still seat a bullet, before getting to max pressure. But, I still chose the 225 TSX and 2000MR over the 250 Partition for my coveted 2019 AZ elk hunt, and it performed great (as no doubt the 250 would have too, but I had already killed and elk with that, and we loonies love to try something new).

I had to go to Varmint to get the full value out of 200 Barnes TTSXs. Can't put enough 2000MR in the case to use its potential.

This concludes my semi-hijack of the thread...LOL. Like another posted, I have 338-06 (2), 35 Whelen, and 9.3x62. They are all just fine. I just had to respond to the nay-saying over Speer's 2000MR published Whelen data, with all the most respect to Mr. Sisk, et.al. Based on my experience, I expect it is both pressure tested and at or below 62K PSI. It would take some SERIOUS cajones in this day and time to publish data 100 FPS over anything previously published that had just been extracted from the rectal data bank.
Cheers,
Rex

I tend to do that as well. I'm building a 6.5x47 on a Remington Model 7 just so I can shoot 120gn Nosler Ballistic Tips.



[i][/i]

Should we toss our Speer manuals?

I don not know but the Speer manual is one I don't buy very often. I buy every ed'n of Nosler, the yearly Hodgon and Western Powder mags and every other Hornady manual. Can't have everything. Mb

I don't know why I still have some old Speer manuals. I have not thrown them out. But I may before my kids could get a hold of them. I suppose a "DO NOT USE" marking with a sharpy on the cover of the manual might be a good idea. Also, I've seen a manual that I have that the 358 Win loads were for the 35 Remington and the 35 Remington loads were for the 358. Manuals are not always right or proper.

In a strong action, take a 700 Remington for example, I do not see any reason why a 7mm-08, a 7x57, 30-06, 270, 243, 6mm, 8x57, 35 Whelen, and so forth can't be loaded to the same pressure, that is if using modern brass.

But, if one is a Model 54 Winchester, another is a 760 Remington, another is a 742 Remington, another is a Remington Rolling block, another is a low numbered '03 and another is a '96 Mauser or a '88 Commission Mauser, then I feel maximum loads should be for the rifle/action, rather than for the cartridge.

Barnes used to have to do corrections for their manual. Their first had loads for the .257 Roberts that when used I couldn't get all the powder in the case. I have yet to have a problem with Speer manuals, but maybe I was just lucky. One thing I read years ago was Speer tested their loads in pressure barrels and then shot them in standard actions to see what the results were. They then printed what they got in the standard actions so people would have a more consistent result with their rifles. As an example I have used 165g Speers in my 30-06 and haven't had trouble reaching their published loads, but have had a couple cartridge give me trouble trying to reach Nosler velocity loads. I'm talking 300 fps difference with the same powder and load.