Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns INTERSTING GUN FIGHT #SHOTS STATS

I don't think anyone in our era kills a lot of people with a handgun. People put into a position in which killing a lot of others with small arms fire is necessary are using rifles. Occasionally a shotgun or handgun is deployed for a specific role but by and large modern warfighters and increasingly even law enforcement are going to the fight with an M4 carbine. And for good reasons.

"Any hit is a good hit... " Maybe that should be changed to "any hit is a good start!" Watch this two minute video all the way through for the punch line.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gE9qooFUqsk&list=PLWVp52wHfhX2XvKc9QYbEJwYVwpOA87mo&index=8

So no 9mm....Glad you have that covered

That's a good way to word it Mog. Who ever gets lead in the fleshy parts first gains an advantage. If you do get that initial hip shot it can have the added advantage of cancelling your opponents mobility. Hit to the hip or lower spine, they're not moving so fast.it takes the initiative from them and gives you more options.

Glad to read of your experience, sir. It’s funny how that works. In my view, that’s a ready-made excuse for police chiefs to pull out to excuse the lousy shooting of their cops in an OIS. In one OIS review I was part of, 2 coppers emptied their pistols on a would be suicide-by-cop. That’s 30 rounds of 40 S&W. Hit him 4 times (13.3% hit ratio). Chief deputy says it was a good shoot because all 4 hits were in the guy’s head, but I pointed out that clipping both ears and grazing the scalp apparently didn’t quite work, as they still had to taser him to get him to hold still so they could cuff him.



Funny how the rifles vs pistols stuff is rarely mentioned in ex Navy SEAL classes.

As for amlodipine, that’s a good approach. I typically just load them and start a drip and let the intensivists figure out the rest.

Seriously? Did you bother to read what I wrote before you wrote this?



Mike, don’t dissimulate. You wrote HUMAN evolution, not evolution of training. There is a huge difference. English is a precise language. Use it accordingly.

And yes, I maintain that people today are far less fit than they were 60 years ago, and there is ample data to prove it. The percentage of Americans who actually exercise daily has declined drastically. Average Body mass index and percentage body fat have increased enormously. There is a small segment of the populace that actively exercises because they want to, but they are in the minority by a large margin. As others have posted, above, the medical and fitness literature supports this sad fact very strongly.

Once engaged, if a bad guy has cover/concealment I'll shoot whatever part of him I can see. If I can't see his head, upper chest and he lets his knee stray too far out - it is gonna get shot. Sticks a thigh out, lets his shoulder poke out, it's getting a bullet. Obviously those aren't necessarily fight stoppers, but I promise it will weigh on his mind and spirit.

To clarify, I prefer the term “lateral pelvis” rather than “hip”, and that’s what I’ve been teaching for 20+ years. It works. It’s a relatively large target area, and fracturing the bones there (upper femur and ilium of pelvis) will put a felon on the ground very quickly. Unfortunately, it’s not exactly a non-lethal option, as many people think... the iliac and femoral arteries are right there, and if you perforate those, you can’t apply a tourniquet...

I have been told by several cops I’ve trained that they used lateral pelvis shots in OIS with excellent effect.

MOGC, all due respect, but potentially wasting bullets on small and mobile target areas may work against you if not carefully thought out. I’m sure you e already considered this, it let me be a bit more explicit.

If you’re shooting a rifle, and you have lots of ammo, yeah, go ahead and shoot at the guy’s exposed appendage, But if all you have is a 17 round mag for your blaster and the range is 20 yards, and you waste 7 or 10 rounds trying to hit the edge of his head when he ducks out, you may put yourself at a serious tactical disadvantage. By all means, if you have a non-moving appendage in your sights and your marksmanship is up to snuff for the target size and the range, take a shot! But be careful you don’t send good bullets after bad. There are lots of examples in the LE literature of cops doing just that and shooting their guns empty.

I (and trainers such as Pat Rogers), consider such shooting a low percentage option. You are more likely to miss than on a torso or full head target, and even if you do hit, you’re not likely to incapacitate your opponent. The subject is in a fixed position behind cover, which means you have opportunity for fire and maneuver, or simply wait him out, or other options, depending on the situation.

Again, not arguing with you, just trying to out some nuance on it.

Caveat: if you use this tactic as a component of a suppressive fire while you or a member of the team closes on the subject, it may work very well indeed.

It's a good point and glad you clarified it. Situation dependent.

With a combat load of 240 rounds (8 magazines) suppressive fire seemed wasteful, even if appropriate.

Low percentage shots with a handgun when I'm usually carrying total, with reload, roughly what I had in the M16 before the first reload (or a few rounds less) is only an option if it's allowing me to un-ass the encounter.

Then again, I value my ability to run more than my ability to shoot well.

Obviously, you want both fitness and firearms proficiency, but one is likely to never be used, while one almost ensures a longer, healthier life.

And, in SOI, I learned that there's a LOT of running involved in training to fight.

IMO, carrying a gun 24-7 just in case, but neglecting physical fitness makes zero sense

goalie, I did a fair bit of suppressive fire training, but never used it on SWAT ops, never used it and never saw it used, but we trained for it and if the right situation ever came up, we could have used it. Pat Rogers ran us thru a drill using SF on some emergency egress situations he had based on real world ops. But as you say, the purpose was to un -ass a stack of guys from a bad place.

I have steel knees and I don’t like to run, but I CAN run if I have to. Otherwise I’d still be running 15 miles a week. Now I walk and throw dumbbells around. And go to my happy place (the range) a lot.

Good luck in this place....

LMAO 🤣

Doc, I realized I was old the other day when my GPS watch had 18 minutes and change at mile 2, and I realized I used to run 3 miles in less time than it takes me to run 2 miles now. And that's at my "fast" old guy pace.

Getting old sucks, man.

Getting old beats the alternative and beyond a certain point, even that is debatable.

You just referenced the Huffington Post. Since the Victorian era men have split the atom, walked on the moon and invented the Glock in 9mm. Get a grip.


mike r

Doc, it is obvious that your training has resulted in opinions that wont be changed regardless of advances that others choose to heed. I had no idea of the depth of your experience as a swat cop and entry team member. Those SOF guys that I mentioned should have have sought out your level of expertise.

You are now the official Guru of Gunfighting and have achieved the Big Stick level of Subject Matter Expert.

I stand humbled in your presence.



mike r

Glad to hear you’ve come to your senses, Mike. Im still waiting to hear what advances you espouse that I haven’t heeded, though.