Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns INTERSTING GUN FIGHT #SHOTS STATS

Any training should be approached with the mindset it will contain some good points, some OK points and some chaff. Use what works better for you, in your applications, and file the rest.

Add to that, "Make the first one count".

DOC: Here's what I gleaned from the "old v new guy" discussion: If you carry anything with less than 15 rounds, you're an old guy that's gonna get killed by the average bad guy who holds his gun sideways as the empties his 17+ round magazine into you..AND ESPECIALLY if you carry a 1911, you might as well shoot yourself because we all know that's an archaic POS that by immaculate conception, stopped working when the 21sy Century arrived.

I missed that recall. Do I need to turn mine in or just send them to a museum? I wondered why .45 ACP was hard to come by these days.

I liked the mental gymnastics so many did when Glock came out with the 43 and 48 and then had to say "single stack" is enough for EDC.

As to old vs new - I don't know, enjoy reading the back and forth. I don't have numbers but I feel like a lot of people get into a gun fight that don't have the training listed here and end up alive. Not saying a person should specifically NOT get training but some is better than none and some likely puts you in the top 2% of those that carry or those that shoot. People get golf lessons, take courses at the local tech school, Mastery online courses etc - Americans aren't against learning things but when it comes to shooting - people just don't do it so those that do, quickly move ahead. Even if the training may be older or not as extensive as the other guy getting training.

YMMV

I'm not. In my current work and home circumstances, I don't feel compelled to carry a weapon on my person. But as I see our culture deteriorating, I may soon change my behavior to reflect that. I have several handguns now and am trying to learn to become proficient with them, although COVID and the ammo shortage has slowed down that process. I am sure I will never be anywhere near as capable as any of you. Knowing that has made me all the more hesitant to begin carrying; I don't think I am proficient enough to be carrying. At this point, if I were to begin carrying I would probably be in RGK's camp vs. yours, Antelope Snipers, or the many others who carry more firepower, although that too may change. Despite what you and others may think, the only reason for my questions has been to learn from you.

This thread seems to be telling me that people choose what they choose based on a lot of different factors, but gun fight stats don't seem to have much influence on anyone's thinking.

Basing decisions off of stats mean you are preparing for an average situation not the extreme.

Agree. In a normal distribution, there is a 50-50 chance that a given situation will require more than the average. My question has always been how are knowledgeable people deciding where along the spectrum of possible shooting events one should be positioned.

Well said, but it is to be expected.

“You should tell someone what you know. There should be a history, so that men can learn from it.”

He smiled. “Men do not learn from history. Each generation believes itself brighter than the last, each believes it can survive the mistakes of the older ones. Each discovers each old thing and they throw up their hands and say ‘See! Look what I have found! Look upon what I know!’ And each believes it is something new.”

Louis L’Amour
The Californios

I don't consider myself to be any kind of an authority as to what's best or what others should do. I will simply say what I've done.

I started carrying faithfully, everyday, about 10 years ago. I bought a 1911 LW Commander (8+1 capacity). I used both IWB and OWB holsters. I shot it fine and have no complaints about it. In fact, I still have it. However...

At some point, I joined the group of people who believe that the 9mm (loaded with good ammunition) is just as effective for self defense as the .45 ACP. My LW Commander was the same size/weight as a fully loaded Glock 19 but held 9 rounds instead of 16. I also decided that the multiple safeties of a 1911 were not an advantage, nor was the increased recoil.

Now don't get me wrong--I love 1911's! I absolutely love them--the look, the history, the way they feel in my hand, everything!! But...for saving my own life, a G19 with 17 or 21 round mags as spares, is a much better choice.

So, getting back to statistical probabilities, I think I am better prepared for a worse-than-average gunfight with a G19 over a 1911. YMMV.

Wade, you just gored the sacred cow.

Years ago I read an article about the guy who stopped the mass shooting at the Trolley Square Mall in SLC. He had a Kimber 1911 with no spare mag and had one round left in the chamber when the cavalry showed up. He accomplished what he needed to, but said it was the worst feeling imaginable.

I can only imagine..

I saw an interview with him. He said when he drew that pistol he immediately started thinking about running out of ammo.

The most concerning thing I’ve seen in this thread has been the underestimation of the enemy. Talking about thugs who don’t pull up their pants or whatever.

That’s a caricature of the bad guy. That’s the stooge, the hanger-on, the lackey. That’s not the bad guy.

The bad guy will Jack. You. Up. He’s bigger and faster and stronger and meaner than you and he’s lived harder for longer than you. You can disagree, but it’ll only be because you haven’t met him yet.

There aren't any sacred cows. I can easily understand why a person might choose a hi-cap 9; and just as easily understand why somebody who is entirely proficient with a 45 caliber 1911 and can run it on autopilot, might choose that pistol. I split the difference most days with a 14-15 round 40 S&W.

Most of this caliber war horsechit is is recreational arguing and navel-gazing. All of these have proven capable in the hands of people who shoot them well. I don't see a ton of difference between them in soft tissue/peripheral hits, but when major skeletal structures come into play I believe is where bigger, heavier bullets earn their keep.

Just because I'm really left brained, could someone describe a "less than average", "average" and "higher than average" gunfight? I.e. the left edge, middle and right edge of the bell curve.

Are we talking a lone ghurka vs. a shi-ite load of Taliban on the right end and six cops with drawn guns vs. a 90 year old legally blind woman on the left side? I'm just trying to get a visualization on what those terms mean.

IIRC, Applegate's book (yeah, Jurassic period old school) described an average gunfight as generally happening in low light, taking 2-3 seconds and being decided in under 6 rounds. Is that still average?

That's sobering--wow!

LMAO Jorge, you having been an officer explains the product of your gleaning.

I lift my glass to all who served and especially to those who provided CAS and bombed the NVA. Even squid ossifers.


mike r

If you keep playing the reality card someone will counter with " and that's why I carry god's gun"

One Shot One Kill


mike r

TYG,

I described my current carry situation, but I didn't start where I am now. Back in the day when I lived in a small town on the wind swept Wyoming Prairie, daily carry for me was a 6" barreled .357mag under the front seat with a couple speed loader and an extra box of ammo and I never felt under gunned. Of course, the only brown and black hoards I had to worry about then were of the Herford and Angus varieties. Heck I even carried my 6 gun real old school with 5 in the cylinder and an empty chamber under the hammer.

After moving to the big city, I progressed through a double action semi-auto, both single and double stack, a double stack 1911, and finally landed where I am today. Of course a lot's changed down here in the last 20 years, and we've seen a variety of threats evolve, from more aggressive panhandler on high THC pot, flash mobs, BLM riots, knockout gangs, not to mention our local crazies, from Columbine, the Aurora Theater, Boulder King Souper, Thornton Walmart, Life Church, Planned Parent Hood in The Springs, and a dozen other news worthy events. As a consequence I've evolved with the times.

I don't buy into the hypothesis that you have the level of dedication displayed by the top tier carriers to carry. In my mind, the most important part is just starting. Once you start, work to make it a discipline, and experiment as you go. Exercise good self reflection on your practices and how they align with your observation of the reality you live day-to-day, and adjust accordingly. Those adjustments could be in miscellaneous equipment like holsters, magazine carriers, etc. or the gun you carry, a new training class, or just how you practice at the range, or at home.

Don't worry that you're not "gunfighter level" when you start, just start, pay attention, and work to improve. Over time you'll gain confidence, which can serve as a deterrence in and of it self.

Best of luck with your journey into EDC.