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Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Whatever.


Great observation from a Valley Girl.


Originally Posted by RJY66

I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
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Originally Posted by HitnRun
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
I’ve been away for a couple of days and see that some counterpoints have been made.

Originally Posted by HitnRun
Of course he did it all wrong. He defeated the perp by luck only. He was packing a pipsqueek 380 and everyone knows when you get shot with a 380, it doesn’t hurt.

Backing away from the perp was so hazardous, he was lucky an alligator hadn’t come into the parking lot where he had just walked and could have tripped him as he backed up.

Approaching your truck with someone in it wouldn’t upset you enough to want to question the perp’s intentions, you would normally pull your gun and start with your 24hourcampfire threats and that alone would scare the bejeebers out of the perp.

Yes, it is too bad the victim wasn’t a member of the Campfire so he could have been perfect in his assessment and performed to the standards that are set here every day.

What a bunch of cowboy clowns, the Campfire never disappoints.


You appear to be skeptical that people can analyze a situation in real time the same as 20/20 hindsight. There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people who do it every day in this country.

My biggest problem with the video is not that the good guy was not perfect, but that a self-professed expert proclaimed the performance to be perfect. Some people who don’t know better rely on that kind of stuff. There is a huge difference between being perfect and getting a “win” (which this was) because you managed to survive through some combination of skill and luck.

Originally Posted by HitnRun
He was packing a pipsqueek 380 and everyone knows when you get shot with a 380, it doesn’t hurt.


I haven’t seen anyone arguing that point. I’ve seen what .380s do and would never say that. In fact, if I am pulling a pistol out of my front pocket, it is a .380. I do know how to use it.

Originally Posted by HitnRun


Approaching your truck with someone in it wouldn’t upset you enough to want to question the perp’s intentions, you would normally pull your gun and start with your 24hourcampfire threats and that alone would scare the bejeebers out of the perp.

Yes, it is too bad the victim wasn’t a member of the Campfire so he could have been perfect in his assessment and performed to the standards that are set here every day.


The ability to draw logical inferences from other people’s actions is a good skill to have, especially considering that criminals may lie when questioned about their intentions. When someone is rummaging around in your vehicle as you approach, one might be able to infer at level much higher than reasonable suspicion standard used by police that something criminal is afoot. Of course, other factors that we do not know may have been considered by the good guy and affected his analysis. Were the doors locked? (Locked points toward forcible entry with a tool of some sort.) Was there a deadly weapon or expensive valuables in the vehicle? Is entering a vehicle in that locale a misdemeanor or felony? What are self-defense and citizen’s arrest laws in that locale?

I also do not recall anyone saying that our good guy should have pulled his pistol and made threats just because the person was in the vehicle. One must try to not let being “upset” cloud one’s judgment. That is a heavy lift for some, not for others.

Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
HitnRun,

It's constructive criticism/review. Lessons learned.

We are all imperfect, but if we can learn something from someone else's experience, that is a good thing.

Yes, the good guy made a good decision to create distance once he figured out he was in trouble.

Good SA would have let him assess that earlier on, and he could have drawn his weapon, and made verbal contact from a safer distance to begin with.

Parking lots/vehicle entry/exit are some of the most vulnerable and common locations for crime like this. It is a good time to have your head in the game, and be very aware of what is happening around you.


I agree. We all can learn something new every day. It doesn’t have to be self-defense oriented; it could be that tricky situation on the Interstate that we managed to survive. If we fail to analyze, we cannot move forward, and we may not survive the next time. At times there are the things that we totally missed that could have killed us without some luck; better put that in the memory bank for next time. There is always room for improvement. In my own case, I beat myself more than anyone else will.

Y’all take care.



You have convinced yourself. Great analysis for a Campfire wizard. At least you could tell that to some kids on a playground at an elementary school.



WTF is your problem?



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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by ironbender
Was the pistol cartridge ever mentioned?


No, but my sense is it was a pipsqueak, .380 at most.


This is pure speculation, which people have picked up as fact. Could have just as easily been a J frame Smith with 38 Specials +P, or one of the new micro guns in 9mm. Your speculation contributed nothing, but to egg on the big talkers that talk big about shooting someone, but probably would have done the same thing. Obviously the GG made the right choices and didn't have to kill anyone. I certainly don't want to kill anyone. Anyone that was proponents of the GG killing the BG, could have their advice taken as premeditation murder, if they ever get in the same situation. They are basically saying they think the BG should have been killed pre-emptively. Hence they would go into this situation looking for an opportunity to kill someone.


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Originally Posted by Cariboujack
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by ironbender
Was the pistol cartridge ever mentioned?


No, but my sense is it was a pipsqueak, .380 at most.


This is pure speculation, which people have picked up as fact. Could have just as easily been a J frame Smith with 38 Specials +P, or one of the new micro guns in 9mm. Your speculation contributed nothing, but to egg on the big talkers that talk big about shooting someone, but probably would have done the same thing. Obviously the GG made the right choices and didn't have to kill anyone. I certainly don't want to kill anyone. Anyone that was proponents of the GG killing the BG, could have their advice taken as premeditation murder, if they ever get in the same situation. They are basically saying they think the BG should have been killed pre-emptively. Hence they would go into this situation looking for an opportunity to kill someone.


Without going back and rereading every post I do not recall anyone saying that at all. Aren't you the guy that carries with an empty chamber? You really don't understand this subject at all.


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It doesn't really matter what the pistol was.

The GG was in condition white, traipsing along not paying attention to a thing until he was practically within arms reach of the BG.

The BG was in condition red, working his craft.

Nobody is salivating to shoot someone.

Just have a little situational awareness. Having good SA gives you time/distance to decide your best course of action.

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Originally Posted by Cariboujack
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by ironbender
Was the pistol cartridge ever mentioned?


No, but my sense is it was a pipsqueak, .380 at most.


This is pure speculation, which people have picked up as fact. Could have just as easily been a J frame Smith with 38 Specials +P, or one of the new micro guns in 9mm. Your speculation contributed nothing, but to egg on the big talkers that talk big about shooting someone, but probably would have done the same thing. Obviously the GG made the right choices and didn't have to kill anyone. I certainly don't want to kill anyone. Anyone that was proponents of the GG killing the BG, could have their advice taken as premeditation murder, if they ever get in the same situation. They are basically saying they think the BG should have been killed pre-emptively. Hence they would go into this situation looking for an opportunity to kill someone.


Mr. Cariboujack, were i breaking into your vehicle, then turned and advance toward you with a crow/pry bar in hand, you better shoot me a half dozen times, no one is that stupid, that kid could have thrown that pry bar into that mans chest killing him.


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This whole clusterfluck is no different than the movie “Sully”. After Sully ditches the airliner in the harbor, all the experts say he was wrong to do so and should have turned the jet around and landed at LaGuardia safely.

Having all the data after the fact vs being involved in the drama as it unfolded are 2 different things. The facts are that he safely landed the airbus with no loss of life and a few minor injuries.

All you experts are no different than the panel of critics that wanted to blame Sullenberger for choosing the Harbor over LaGuardia.

24hour tough talk stops on the forums and the news is lacking the actual events that the experts claim here. What a joke!


Originally Posted by RJY66

I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
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Just because someone survives an encounter, doesn't mean they handled it 'perfectly'.

It's like people who drive and use their smartphone at the same time. They made it to their destination alive...this time...but that doesn't mean they did a great job of driving.

When the show Live PD was on, I was a fan. Many times I would see officers approach a car, house, etc, with their flashlight in their gun hand.
That always bothered me. Well, they made it through their encounters, but sometimes it can be a small but deadly mistake.

If you cannot look at an encounter with a critical eye, you have stopped growing/learning/improving.

None of us are perfect, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying to learn. Even the top tier people constantly seek to improve their craft through training and critical review after every serious response.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
Just because someone survives an encounter, doesn't mean they handled it 'perfectly'.

It's like people who drive and use their smartphone at the same time. They made it to their destination alive...this time...but that doesn't mean they did a great job of driving.

When the show Live PD was on, I was a fan. Many times I would see officers approach a car, house, etc, with their flashlight in their gun hand.
That always bothered me. Well, they made it through their encounters, but sometimes it can be a small but deadly mistake.

If you cannot look at an encounter with a critical eye, you have stopped growing/learning/improving.

None of us are perfect, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying to learn. Even the top tier people constantly seek to improve their craft through training and critical review after every serious response.


PREZACTLY !!! And some folks NEVER Learn.


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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
Just because someone survives an encounter, doesn't mean they handled it 'perfectly'.

It's like people who drive and use their smartphone at the same time. They made it to their destination alive...this time...but that doesn't mean they did a great job of driving.

When the show Live PD was on, I was a fan. Many times I would see officers approach a car, house, etc, with their flashlight in their gun hand.
That always bothered me. Well, they made it through their encounters, but sometimes it can be a small but deadly mistake.

If you cannot look at an encounter with a critical eye, you have stopped growing/learning/improving.

None of us are perfect, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying to learn. Even the top tier people constantly seek to improve their craft through training and critical review after every serious response.



This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
Just because someone survives an encounter, doesn't mean they handled it 'perfectly'.

It's like people who drive and use their smartphone at the same time. They made it to their destination alive...this time...but that doesn't mean they did a great job of driving.

When the show Live PD was on, I was a fan. Many times I would see officers approach a car, house, etc, with their flashlight in their gun hand.
That always bothered me. Well, they made it through their encounters, but sometimes it can be a small but deadly mistake.

If you cannot look at an encounter with a critical eye, you have stopped growing/learning/improving.

None of us are perfect, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying to learn. Even the top tier people constantly seek to improve their craft through training and critical review after every serious response.



This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yep.

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IMHO, constructive critical review and continuous improvement are what make the top people the top people.

Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
If you cannot look at an encounter with a critical eye, you have stopped growing/learning/improving.

None of us are perfect, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying to learn. Even the top tier people constantly seek to improve their craft through training and critical review after every serious response.


“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General
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Originally Posted by David_Walter
IMHO, constructive critical review and continuous improvement are what make the top people the top people.

Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
If you cannot look at an encounter with a critical eye, you have stopped growing/learning/improving.

None of us are perfect, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying to learn. Even the top tier people constantly seek to improve their craft through training and critical review after every serious response.




Exactly 💯



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What I find interesting is that people actually consider this butterball narrator some sort of subject matter expert on this stuff. The dude speaks like he is an authority on self defense and critiques these videos as if he has years of experiences working the streets. Just another nobody with a camera who surfs the web, reposting videos and then Monday morning critiquing events as if he has years of experience pointing guns at people.

The dude has never done anything more dangerous than slip in the shower or choke on his third helping at the Golden Corral buffet.

And people eat it up.

PT Barnum was right.


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Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
What I find interesting is that people actually consider this butterball narrator some sort of subject matter expert on this stuff. The dude speaks like he is an authority on self defense and critiques these videos as if he has years of experiences working the streets. Just another nobody with a camera who surfs the web, reposting videos and then Monday morning critiquing events as if he has years of experience pointing guns at people.

The dude has never done anything more dangerous than slip in the shower or choke on his third helping at the Golden Corral buffet.

And people eat it up.

PT Barnum was right.

I certainly don't think of him as any sort of authority. He just presents interesting security camera footage for those who think about these situations.

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But, but... he attends a lot of classes and holds some certifications of some sort or another. So, yeah he's a qualified subject matter expert. Or so he says.


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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
What I find interesting is that people actually consider this butterball narrator some sort of subject matter expert on this stuff. The dude speaks like he is an authority on self defense and critiques these videos as if he has years of experiences working the streets. Just another nobody with a camera who surfs the web, reposting videos and then Monday morning critiquing events as if he has years of experience pointing guns at people.

The dude has never done anything more dangerous than slip in the shower or choke on his third helping at the Golden Corral buffet.

And people eat it up.

PT Barnum was right.

I certainly don't think of him as any sort of authority. He just presents interesting security camera footage for those who think about these situations.


He does have a 'fake expert' air about him.

I'm more interested in the vid itself, than his analysis.

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Yep. Exactly.

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Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by Cariboujack
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by ironbender
Was the pistol cartridge ever mentioned?


No, but my sense is it was a pipsqueak, .380 at most.


This is pure speculation, which people have picked up as fact. Could have just as easily been a J frame Smith with 38 Specials +P, or one of the new micro guns in 9mm. Your speculation contributed nothing, but to egg on the big talkers that talk big about shooting someone, but probably would have done the same thing. Obviously the GG made the right choices and didn't have to kill anyone. I certainly don't want to kill anyone. Anyone that was proponents of the GG killing the BG, could have their advice taken as premeditation murder, if they ever get in the same situation. They are basically saying they think the BG should have been killed pre-emptively. Hence they would go into this situation looking for an opportunity to kill someone.


Mr. Cariboujack, were i breaking into your vehicle, then turned and advance toward you with a crow/pry bar in hand, you better shoot me a half dozen times, no one is that stupid, that kid could have thrown that pry bar into that mans chest killing him.


Gunner, you could be right. I'm not sure any of us know for sure what they would do until they were in that kind of situation. My point is, there are so many people acting like they are anxious to save the state money. I hope I don't ever have to shoot someone. Would I? If I read the situation as me or him, you can bet your last dollar, I'll be shooting until he is no longer a threat. I've taught Handgun courses for a long time. I'm used to people asking, "can I shoot them if..." I prefer to ask the question, do I have any other choice? I certainly know where you are coming from, and I was glad the GG started backing up as soon as he did. I don't know if he was in condition white or maybe yellow. I don't know about you, but I have accidentally gotten in the wrong vehicle in a parking lot and got right back out pretty quick, once I realized it. My main concern an aggressive DA can make a case of someone looking for an opportunity to "KILL" someone. It's not just the police that have to be convinced. We all have to make the decision when we believe we are at risk of death or extreme injury. I can lay down several shots pretty quick if needed.
Obviously both people were out of view for a few seconds but just like someone that gives away they are getting ready to throw a punch, they also give away when they are getting ready to throw a tire iron.


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What I found interesting is it took both of those guys a few seconds to change mental states.

I presume where good guy with a gun parked his truck was in a low crime area where he wouldn’t be expecting either a brazen daylight break-in or a bad guy with a weapon. Might be he parked there all the time which would put him further on autopilot.

From “what’s going on?” to “oh crap I’m in danger” took a few seconds.

Likewise the scumbag switches to predator mode but then when looking down the barrel on a gun it takes him a few seconds to mentally switch gears to “oh fugg I’ve got a pipe in a gunfight”.

I suppose that transition time is where you get killed.


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