Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Swift Scirocco for elk?

I have shot 3 antelope with this bullet in my 300 RUM so far. However since they are frail creatures I can not form an opinion on how they would really stand up to elk and other tough game. Accuracy never seemed to be a problem (at least in my guns). I have drived this one at close to 3400 fps in my 300 RUM with AA 8700.

I wouldn't. After I shot a little deer with a 165 grain Scirocco out of my 300 Win at 3150 fps MV, and watched it blow a 4"x6" hole in the offside, breaking ribs and pushing guts through, I think this bullet expands too much for elk.

Blaine

Seems like I read an article by J Barsness a year or so ago in which he related shooting two smallish (cow and spike)elk with 150 gr Sciroccos in 7mm Rem Mag. I had my 7RUM stuffed with them last season but I were where the elk were'nt or vice versa. I would'nt plan on any bone bustin' shoulder shots with them,but would'nt hesitate to use them myself.
Jeff

The 165gr. Scirocco and the 180 gr. version are two different animals IMO. Out of my .30-8mm mag. which is only a step behind your 300 RUM either bullet is lightning on mule deer. For elk I wouldn't hesitate to use the 180 gr. bullet. In fact, it is likely I will use that combo this year if I draw the tag. I would consider the 165 grainer out of the fast thirtys as a deer bullet only. But the heavier version I would use on anything. I have heard from reliable sources that the 180 gr. has been used on tougher animals than elk, a polar bear is one example. The fella on that hunt was using a .300 RUM and wanted one bullet for everthing he hunted with that rifle. While it didn't go all the way through on his bear, big male at about 30 yards. The penetration was very good. While that combo for big bears wouldn't have been my choice it worked for him. Personally I wouldn't hesitate to use it on anything in N. Amer., except the big bears. Good luck, Troy

I think there are some better choices.

I called Swift and asked if the 180 grainer would hold up better than the 165 grainer out of my 300 Win. The Swift techs told me there wouldn't be a big difference. Maybe a 180 gain Scirocco at 2900 fps MV would work okay on elk, but I'm betting a 180 grainer at 3400 fps is a bad idea.

A friend of mine, shooting Rem factory ammo loaded with 180 grain Sciroccos at 3250 ish FPS out of his 300 RUM, shot a small Texas deer a couple years ago. He complained then about how much the bullet expanded and the damage it did. I though his experience was an anomally until I shot my deer lasy year.

A bigger question. With such excellent and accurate bullets out there--like the 180 Partition--why even consider the 180 Scirocco for elk? Why not use what is know to provide excellent terminal performance? Why take the chance?

Blaine

The only Scirocco I've seen recovered was a 180 gr. bullet. It weighed a 143- or 148 grs. Very good weight retention. But, it was less than a thrid of it's original lenth and very wide. It was fired from a 30'06 and the range was about 150 yds. I'd prefer an A-Frame or an X for elk. E

I'm not particularly impressed with the 180 grain Scirocco, especially in a high velocity cartridge. I've shot whitetail deer with it and for my taste, it expands and flattens out way too much. I shot a nice deer last year with the 180gr. in my .300 Wby and recovered it. It was flat as a pancake with practically no shank remaining at all. I think I'll use something else this year.

POP,

I killed a 6x6 Bull with a 180 Scir out of my 300 RUM @ 3300 MV.

I used the 180 Scir because there was a good chance that I would get a long shot at a bull and felt that the excellent BC
of the Scir might come in handy.

Well, I will tell you that there is a good chance that if I used a different bullet that I might have either missed the bull
or marginally hit it, as I misjudged the distance. I held for a 350 yard shot, basically dead on for the load, but the distance
was damn close to 450. The bullet dropped about 14" below my point of aim. Didn't have time to range it, but did after
the fact and it came up at 448.

The bull was 1/4 towards me, my first shot hit a little low, behind the shoulder, took out one lung, the liver, through the
paunch and rested under the hide on the off side rib cage. Nice penetration. At the shot, the bull hunched up and my second
shot hit the bull in the base of the neck, droping him like a ground hog hit with a 22-250 !! Hey, what can I say, I held higher
on the second shot, on the shoulder of course, but you know what happens when the adrenaline starts pumping !!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
BTW, shot was taken off of a Harris bypod, prone, across a canyon and the best part is my buddy caught the whole thing on
video !!!

The bullet looks like a magazine cover bullet and retained 174 out of 180 grains.

A few points.......I have read the posts on this thread and don't diagree with any of the comments made re. the Scir's. I
selected that bullet specifically for the situation that I encountered, that being a very long range shot. Now as to the
question of how it would have performed at 100 yards at something over 3000 fps, it would have killed a bull,
but would have flattened out and retained a good portion of it's weight. The fact that the bullet opened up to about 1/2
way back down the shank tells me that the impact velocity was about 2500 fps.

One thing that I noticed about the Scir, practicing at 300 and 400 yards, is that it is laser beam flat. Out of my 300 RUM
anyway.

So my suggestion is that you should think about what situation ou may find yourself in. Having a limited amount of time
and a considerable amount of money on the line, my thinking was that I wanted to be prepared to shoot at a very long
distance if that situation was presented to me. Which it was. My buddy killed his bull with a 200 grain Partition out of his
300 RUM at 350 yards and dumped the 6x7 bull like the above mentioned groundhog !!! BW, I did return the favor and videoed
his kill !!!<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

No doubt that either the Partition of the Scir would work, as I have seen both used on elk.

Tony.

JScott--

Wasn't me that wrote about shooting elk with Sciroccos. I have only used them on deer.

They are a fine deer bullet, if you like lots of meat tenderizing, but Swift themselves recommends A-Frames for game bigger than deer. They designed the Scirocco to essentially be a Ballistic Tip that held together better.

Whoops,that was Dave Scovill,Handloader feb 2002.Sorry,must be losing my memory! What was the question again? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Jeff

Unbeknownst to most folks, I have secretly been writing Scovill's stuff for several years now. This allows him to write under the pen name of Wayne Van Zwoll.

MD (aka JB, aka...what WAS that question again?)

All right! No more two-martini lunches for this crowd!

Rick

Based on what I have personally seen from my rifle, I still wouldn't hesitate to use the 180 gr. Scirocco on elk. I certainly don't discount Swift's guidance but just because they didn't design it for elk doesn't mean it wouldn't work. I think this question really revolves around knowing the limitations of your combination. The bullet wasn't intended to penetrate like an X bullet, so Texas heart shots are a bad idea for at least that reason. But I have a really hard time believing that an elk, standing broadside or quartering away would do anything but crumple with that combo. Again, based on what I've seen it do to mulies.

AFP mentioned the 180 gr. Partition as a better alternative. I would respectively disagree. At least as far as the fast thirty's are concerned. I don't think there is any improvement going to the partition. Had you said the 180 gr. Partition gold (partition is farther forward w/ steel reinforcement in the rear, if I remember correctly), I might give you the nod. Had you said the 200 gr. Partition, not only is it heavier, but it has a thicker jacket as well (it was specifically designed for the fast thirty's), I would completely agree with you. IMO, if you want marked improvement over the Scirocco on elk, you need an X-bullet, Failsafe, TBBC, or A-Frame, or some bullet of similar construction. The X and FS being the ultimate penetrators.

For me at least, the Swift bullets of either design are accurate and devastating on game. Had the 165 Gr. XBT been accurate for me when I first had this rifle built, I likely wouldn't be in this conversation. But if the XLC's are accurate for me, I may well have my one bullet for all....Good luck, Troy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Troy,

The issue isn't weight retention, it is the Scirocco expands too much limiting penetration. A Partition doesn't expand to as large a frontal area so it will penetrate better.

Blaine

Ok fellas,

I finally figured out (I think !!) how to post pictures. Here are three pictures of the 180 Swift Scir that I pulled out of my bull elk.

It was shot out of a SUCKS 700 SS, 91.0 RL22, REM cases, FED 215, MV @3300, chrono'd. Impact velocity was about 2500 fps +-, range 448 yards, measured with a laser range finder. Bullet entered behind the front right shoulder, slightly low, clipped one lung, liver, through the paunch, found under the hide in front of the left rear leg (rib cage). Obviously was 1/4 towards me slightly. Bullet retained 174 grains out of 180.

Backstraps, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm !!!!!









Hopefully they come out.

Tony.

The partition will almost always lose its front core though, reducing weight and limiting penetration. I believe the penetration test some time ago in Handloader illustrated this, showing the partitions wider wound channel early on then narrowing considerably. Obviously, the Scirocco wasn't around for that test but if it had been I would expect it to have a huge wound channel for the entire length of its penetration. Swifts of either variety are known for their huge mushroom as you mentioned. Coupled with bonding, it's that performance that produces the dramatic crumpling effect these bullets have on game. So if you don't want to ruin meat, don't shoot game in the a$$ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> .

Some people would suggest that a bullet has failed if it doesn't exit. Even if said animal drops as if struck by lightning. They often comment, "Lucky it didn't run off, we'd have never been able to track it." It's difficult for me, read that impossible, to suggest that a bullet has failed simply because it didn't exit. As long as it will penetrate to the vitals and do significant, immediate damage to them, I'm happy. This very often produces dramatic kills. I don't fault anyone for wanting complete penetration through heavy bone and such. I just don't think you can call a bullet unsuitable because it might not do it every time. It's important to know the strengths and weaknesses of your given combination.

If you expect your game bullet to bust the near side shoulder, tramatize the vitals and exit near the anus of an elk, then you probably should shoot X's, Failsafes or a few other's previously mentioned. If you're willing to restrict yourself to broadside or quartering away shots, I believe you'll be eating elk every time with the 180 gr. Scirocco.

Of the four or five mulies I have taken, all mature bucks, I have one recovered Scirocco. It started out 165 grains. It penetrated through the front (as in quartering towards me) of a standing muley buck and stopped just under the hide, just left of the spine, and just past the back of the shoulder blade. It weighed 112.4 grains (68%), give or take. It of course was relatively flat and the deer dropped immediately. This from my .30-8mm mag. at approximately 75 yards (3350 at the muzzle). At this rate I'll never be a good tracker <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> . Good luck, Troy

I would have had this posted sooner if computer worked as good as my Sciroccos <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . Nice pictures Hicountry.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> There was a question? Oh yeah,something about martinis,I think.
Jeff

Troy--

I don't think anybody's disputing the fact that a Scirocco will kill an elk--especially if we restrict ourselves to broadside or quartering away shots. Heck, if we're going to do that, why use a .30 caliber at all? It's relatively easy to kill broadside elk with a .257 Roberts or arrow. I've done both.

I seriously doubt the 180 Scirocco will penetrate like the 180 Nosler Partition. Have seen a 180 Partition bust a big bull's shoulder at under 100 yards and go on through to the skin of the far side--and this from a .300 Ultra Mag.

It's also indisputable that quick-expanding bullets shoot up more meat even if you don't shoot animals in the butt. Here I'd rate the Scirocco better than the Ballistic Tip, the Partition better than the Scirocco, the A-Frame and Trophy Bonded better than the Partition, and the X and Fail Safe best of all. The X and Fail Safe still manage to kill well, somehow, even without opening as wide as a can of corn and hashing 15 pounds of eating meat.

What we're hopefully talking about here is an all-around elk bullet, that will bust a shoulder and still get across the chest if need be. In .30 calibers I have relied on the 200 Nosler Partition for a long time and have yet to recover one, even after breaking both shoulders of a 6-point last fall. He was quartering slightly toward me in thick brush, and that was the shot to take, so I took it. Why use a bullet that might not get the job done from any reasonable angle if there's something available that will?

Good hunting,
MD

Fellas,

Sorry for the omission.......should have stated my rifle caliber.....300 RUM.



Mule_deer,

While I certainly can't argue with your bullet assessment, I would like to add my .02.......The Swift Scir does open up real wide, especially at impact velocity 3000 fps and above. However, if the intended application were long range or very long range, a reasonable tradeoff would be a gain in trajectory Vs a potential decrease in penetration? The gain in trajectory is easy to quantify; however, the "loss" in penetration is not easily identified.

You know what is really funny, the Jicarilla guides I hunted with as well as their family members hunt deer and elk with 222s and 22-250s !!! The advantage they have is that they can hunt the entire season and can pick and choose their shots (obviously !!!). But, they swear by those rounds and their effectiveness on game. I do wish my 180 Scir had the chance to bust through the front shoulder as that would have been the ultimate test of it's construction and penetrating ability.

Tony.