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Being a classic it stands or falls on its own merits. I don't want to get into bedding, free floating barrels, replacement barrels etc. As is the barrel, rifling and crown look really to my eyes. The action screws have been properly adjusted. At this point I don't want to remove the stock. The handloader? He still has a lot to learn but understands the basics and the need for concentricity. Optimum bullet lengths and the finer details allude him If you don't want to tinker with it just clean it with a good copper remover, work up a load that it likes and shoot it. Mrs Blacktailer's 308 is about a 1 1/2MOA rifle and it works fine for her.
I am continually astounded at how quickly people make up their minds on little evidence or none at all. Jack O'Connor
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When I first took up elk hunting. I bought a then modern Rem 700 mnt gun in 30-06.. It was of the newer action type that didn't lock the bolt on safe. I had the big box counter guy mount a generic Redfield scope. Bought some generic Federal hi-shock cup&core ammo and sighted it in. 1.5 to 2.0 inch three shot groups is what it did with that ammo. I used it to take three cow elk until I switched to using a muzzleloader. It's still sighted in for that ammo and ready to shoot paper, deer or whatever.
So yea, if fun tinkering is the goal great. If not. Go over the old Winchester for function and preservation and go hunting. They're excellent rifles. The bolt easily disassembles in the field for cleaning. The trigger's about the best ever made. The safety is made for hard terrain. The FTW carries, balances, and aims effortlessly. They really are good.
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Dunno what the "correct" torque is for pre-'64 Model 70s, as I don't believe Winchester ever suggested any, since it was long before the torque craze started. In fact I just published a column in SPORTS AFIELD that discussed the subject, and found several of today's better custom gunmakers don't think much of it. But whatever.... You may be correct. I have it written down but can't remember where I got it....most likely from an old Gunsmith I knew for years. Anyways....I do 25# on all three action screws in an even progression. I then back out the center screw until it is just snug. You want the front and back to anchor the action and the center just to be there. I'm probably telling you things you already knew. Hope this helps.
RAVENS & WOLVES
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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25 inch-pounds is relatively light, but not out of the question. Most companies who actually recommend torquing action screws recommend anywhere from around 30-60 pounds--though some recommend even more.
This subject was discussed here not long ago, in regard to taking bolt-rifle barreled action out of their stocks to put them in a take-down case for travel. One example was Melvin Forbes's New Ultra Light Arms rifles, which I've done that with many times. They always returned to zero after reassembly with firm tightening of the action screws--without a torque wrench. Melvin, in fact, does not recommend any specific torque setting for his rifles, because he's found that they not only shoot well with simple firm screw-pressure, but some people torque the screws too much, apparently just because.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Mule Deer,
At the known risk of making a fool of myself here on the 'fire, explain how the shim "behind" the recoil lug floats the barrel a little? I can see how a similar shim "underneath" the lug surface might "lift" the barrel off the forend surface a little bit but would also throw off the bedding alignment/geometry at the rear action screw.
Pardon my ignorance!
As a long term fan of pre-64 70's, I am grateful I have not had issues getting very adequate (and often stellar) accuracy out of mine. It never hurts however to have an extra "ace" up one's sleeve!
The front screw passes through the hole in bread bag tie, which lifts the barrel a bit.
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Engineers tell us that screw threads maintain their tension by "bolt stretch" (think of the head, rod and main bolts on an internal combustion engine, no locking adhesive or device). Something on the order of a 1/4" shank, grade 5 or 8, needs to be up around ,real roughly, 72 to 108 inch pounds to get any bolt stretch. Flat bottom actions are more forgiving of variations in torque. Round bottom actions sans pillars are very susceptible to problems of varying torque. In competition, round bottom actions will 'shoot loose' for various reasons, sometimes during a match. Check the screw torque before a match, fire a hundred rounds and sighters, 20 of which will be rapid fire, re check torque, most likely it will be looser. Hence, pillars, and aluminum bedding blocks. I don't torque anything, going by feel, and Mauser, I doubt, ever intended a very tight guard screw since they provided locking screws and pillars both. If a guy were to ask me, I'd say, forget the numbers, snug the hell out of it, mark the screw lightly with a scribe, so you can see with a glance if it has moved and leave it alone. I don't use any adhesive because it the the stock and action could be loose, but if the screw isn't loose, how would you know? Barsness once wrote a priceless tip about checking bedding, put a dial indicator on the barrel, and indicate to the forearm as you tighten the guard screws, it becomes instantly clear if the action is see-sawing or twisting.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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i tinkered with my lightweight 264 Win.mag pre 64 by cleaning barrel,glass bedding ,floating barrel ,little trigger work and my hand loads its a honest 3/4 inch 5 shot group at 100 yards now. its fun to play with these old fine rifles. good luck ,Pete53
Last edited by pete53; 10/18/21.
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Just remember that this is a 60+ year old wood stock that is not bedded and can't handle what a new stock can. This is really pretty simple.
RAVENS & WOLVES
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Being a classic it stands or falls on its own merits. I don't want to get into bedding, free floating barrels, replacement barrels etc. As is the barrel, rifling and crown look really to my eyes. The action screws have been properly adjusted. At this point I don't want to remove the stock. The handloader? He still has a lot to learn but understands the basics and the need for concentricity. Optimum bullet lengths and the finer details allude him You don't want to take the necessary means to get it to shoot optimally? You don't even want to remove the stock? Time to take up golf? Good luck with your 1 1/4"-1 1/2" shooting rifle. That's good enough for big game hunting at the range your going to use that 308 anyway.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Thank you for taking the time to consider the question and your responses. Let me preface my response. I am in correspondence with collectors who won't take a screwdriver to a rifle and have never loaded a single bullet but have amassed huge collections of vintage ammunition on one end of the spectrum to rifle loonies who were machinists and die makers by trade who have the experience and skills, craftsmanship and means to improve anything they put their mind to, on the other end. Me? Bursitis at the shoulder, tendonitis at elbow, carpal tunnel, trigger finger and white finger syndrome all in my right arm keep me from whaling away at this project hammer and tongs. Reading previous threads on the Fire about this subject I have come up with my own set of steps which I will undertake with this classic firearm. 1) Gain as much information from the previous owner to learn what improvements have already been attempted. 2) Clean the barrel with the best bore cleaner, I know, to remove all traces of copper. 3) Lighten the trigger from 6-8 lb. to 3 1/2-4 lb. [DONE] 4) Tighten action screw best I can, loosen magazine screw and the screw behind the trigger guard appropriately. 5) If results are sub MOA I'm pleased, if not, remove the stock, insert the bread bag shim and retighten the screws as per step 4. 6) Tighten all scope screws and mounts to appropriate torque as per instructions from Leupold. 7) Lastly begin standard loading practices according to my reloading manuals using the most accurate powders tested as a starting basis for the 130 and 150 grain TTSXs I'm in the process of sourcing and loading W748 and Varget which I have in stock, respectively. Also I'm going to try to procure some N140 which has a proven history with this rifle. After engaging in Step 1 with the previous owner, I learned in conversation that a new trigger spring had been procured from Ernie the Gunsmith in Phoenix, installed and thereafter the M70 rifle shot neck sized 1X Nosler brass, CCI 210 Match primers, 46gr. N140 and Hornady 150gr. SP bullets OAL 2.780 into .75 MOA groups. A proven solid shooter! Thus another classic rifle remains unmolested for future rifle loonies to appreciate. Again for for your insights and ideas. Cheers!
"Rhetoric is no substitute for reality." -Thomas Sowell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Thank you for taking the time to consider the question and your responses. Let me preface my response. I am in correspondence with collectors who won't take a screwdriver to a rifle and have never loaded a single bullet but have amassed huge collections of vintage ammunition one end of the spectrum to rifle loonies who were machinists and die makers by trade who had the experience and skills, craftsmanship and means to improve anything they put their mind to, on the end end. Me? Bursitis at the shoulder, tendonitis at elbow, carpal tunnel, trigger finger and white finger syndrome all in my right arm keep me from whaling away at this project hammer and tongs. Reading previous threads on the Fire about this subject I have come up with my own set of steps which I will undertake with this classic firearm. 1) Gain as much information from the previous owner to learn what improvements have already been attempted. 2) Clean the barrel with the best bore cleaner, I know, to remove all traces of copper. 3) Lighten the trigger from 6-8 lb. to 3 1/2-4 lb. [DONE] 4) Tighten action screw best I can, loosen magazine screw and the screw behind the trigger guard appropriately. 5) If results are sub MOA I'm pleased, if not, remove the stock, insert the bread bag shim and retighten the screws as per step 4. 6) Tighten all scope screws and mounts to appropriate torque as per instructions from Leupold. 7) Lastly begin loading standard practices according to my reloading manuals using the most accurate powders tested as a starting basis for the 130 and 150 grain TTSXs I'm in the process of sourcing and loading W748 and Varget which I have in stock, respectively. Also I'm going to try to procure some N140 which has a proven history with this rifle. After engaging in Step 1 with the previous owner, I learned in conversation that a new trigger spring had been procured from Ernie the Gunsmith in Phoenix, installed and thereafter the M70 rifle shot neck sized 1X Nosler brass, CCI 210 Match primers, 46gr. N140 and Hornady 150gr. SP bullets OAL 2.780 into .75 MOA groups. A proven solid shooter! Thus another classic rifle remains unmolested for future rifle loonies to appreciate. Again for for your insights and ideas. Cheers! You answered your own OP about the tutorial. I'd do things differently, but that's just me. I like/appreciate as much precision as I can get. I do all my own work too, so it's on the cheap. No need for a gunsmith in terms of fine tuning a good rifle to attain the best accuracy/precision possible.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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olgrouser,
The only suggestion I'd make about your list of steps is that you might need TWO bread-bag shims to effectively free-float the barrel. The way I test this before shooting is to grab the forend tip and barrel in my hand and squeeze. If the forend can still touch the barrel with one shim, then you need to use two, because with one shim the barrel can "tap" the forend during firing--which won't help accuracy.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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I'm confused about where you put the bread bag tags. Can you be more specific? In front of the lug, underneath it, behind it, I think all have been mentioned in this thread.
"Miss Jean Louise, stand up. Your father's passin.'"
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Just remember that this is a 60+ year old wood stock that is not bedded and can't handle what a new stock can. This is really pretty simple. i use release agent on all the medal when i glass bed a rifle ,i have bedded many old and new stocks . those old American made Win. pre 64 stocks are solid and many rifle manufactures don`t use that good of wood anymore on their rifle stocks.
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'm confused about where you put the bread bag tags. Can you be more specific? In front of the lug, underneath it, behind it, I think all have been mentioned in this thread. Behind the lug, between the "flat" of the action which includes the front action-screw hole, and the matching flat area of of the stock. If you still don't get it, I can post a photo.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Part of the problem is that I'm sitting at my desk and rifles are at home. Is the tag horizontal or vertical?
"Miss Jean Louise, stand up. Your father's passin.'"
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John a pictorial might help... I'll start. My 90% FW 308 wearing a Leupold 2x7:
"Rhetoric is no substitute for reality." -Thomas Sowell
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'm confused about where you put the bread bag tags. Can you be more specific? In front of the lug, underneath it, behind it, I think all have been mentioned in this thread.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Dammit, I see an old steel Weaver...and, gasp, in plain ol' Weaver mounts in the background. Bar's- nice, you could get kicked off the fire for that, 'fire rules say Nightforce, 34 mm in Ken Farrel mounts. Heresy sir, heresy.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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