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Steve Offline OP
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To have battery backups for 12 hours of storage for the U.S. alone would entail mining materials equal to what would be needed for two centuries’ worth of production of batteries for all the world’s smartphones.



Transition to Nowhere



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Transition to Nowhere

California’s switch to a primarily solar and wind-powered grid is a dead end.

October 20, 2021

California

Infrastructure and energy

The leaders of California and China have at least one thing in common: fear of blackouts. In late September, following widespread and economically debilitating losses of power, China’s vice premier Han Zheng ordered the country’s energy companies to ensure sufficient supplies before winter “at all costs” and added, ominously, that blackouts “won’t be tolerated.” A month earlier, California governor Gavin Newsom issued emergency orders to procure more natural gas-fired electrical capacity to avoid blackouts. And in a possible sign of more such moves to come, earlier in the summer, California’s electric grid operator “stole” electricity that Arizona utilities had purchased and that was in transit from Oregon.

In recent weeks, the European continent has also suffered blackouts, near-blackouts, and skyrocketing electricity prices triggered by a massive lull in nature’s windiness. Grid operators across Europe rushed to buy fuel and fire up old gas- and coal-fired plants. Europe petitioned Russia for more natural gas, and German coal plants ran out of fuel, causing a scramble (including in China) to get more (doubling global prices). Even long-forgotten oil-fired powerplants were pressed into emergency service on grids from Sweden to Asia.

The issue that’s now front and center is whether all these disruptions to electricity supply and price are, to use Silicon Valley language, a “feature” or a temporary “bug” of the new energy infrastructure favored by advocates of renewables: one dominated by power from the wind and sun. Proponents of this so-called energy transition admit that the road to a post-hydrocarbon world might be rough. But the solution, they say, is to accelerate construction of far more wind and solar machines. Thus, the key question now is not whether we need such a transition, or even what it would cost, but whether it’s even possible in the time frames now being bandied about (“carbon free by 2035”).

We can thank California for leading the way in helping us answer that question. In late August, in pursuit of that “transition” vision and while skirting the edge of widespread blackouts, California brought online the world’s biggest-ever grid-scale battery, located at Moss Landing, just 60 miles south of Silicon Valley. Proponents of an all-wind/solar grid seem to be saying that all we need to do to get past the volatility of conventional fuels for electricity is to build enough such batteries—the sooner, the better.

The Moss Landing battery is about ten times the size of the previous world-record-holder: the grid-scale battery that Elon Musk built, to global fanfare, for the South Australia grid in 2017. States and countries everywhere are in hot pursuit of grid-scale storage, including New York City, where the state Public Service Commission recently approved construction of a battery “plant” in Queens roughly the size of Tesla’s Australian project.

Three basic constraints work against building enough batteries to solve the intermittency of wind and solar power, however. First, there’s the time it takes to conquer the inevitable engineering challenges in building anything new at industrial scales. Second, there’s the scale issue itself and the deeply naïve reluctance to consider the utterly staggering quantity of batteries that would be required to keep society powered if most electricity is supplied at nature’s convenience. And finally, directly derived from the scale issues, are the difficulties involved in obtaining sufficient primary minerals to build as many batteries as the green dreamers want.

Let’s start with the engineering realities. Mere days after its ribbon-cutting, the Moss Landing mega-battery went offline. Heat and fire-detection systems automatically shut the battery down, activated sprinklers, and called local fire departments. Fortunately, nothing happened this time, but engineers have to take seriously fires with large lithium batteries because they are self-fueling and can be difficult, if not borderline impossible, to suppress. The technical issues resemble the ones plaguing several electric-car manufacturers, but the scale of grid-scale batteries adds to the challenge. The Moss Landing beast has an array of 100,000 lithium battery modules containing as much lithium as some 20,000 Teslas. The last thing anyone wants is for Moss Landing to light up like a Roman Candle visible from space.

This past summer, the Tesla Megapack in South Australia did catch fire and burn out a number of its tractor-trailer-sized “packs.” Two years earlier, a similar fire at a smaller but still utility-scale battery plant in Arizona caused an explosion and injured several firefighters. The state paused its grid-scale battery rollout while it investigated. As of this writing, some 75 percent of Moss Landing’s total capacity remains offline with, as one headline put it, “no timeline on return.”

Such challenges are part of the proper and normal course of engineering progress. Batteries at such scale have never been built. Engineers will doubtless find the causes of these problems and make appropriate fixes. That process may not happen as fast as enthusiasts would like, but operators everywhere will want to get it right before building hundreds and even thousands more such installations.

This brings us to the scale question: just how many facilities like the $400 million Moss Landing battery will California, the U.S., and ostensibly the world need? Answering the question requires simple arithmetic, yielding a substantial reality check.

Building grids that can supply electricity whenever people and businesses need it for decades on end requires more than meeting episodic peaks in demand; we must also understand and prepare for the frequency and duration of the inevitable power-plant outages. The eight grids in the U.S. today collectively possess hundreds of thousands of megawatts of “excess” generation. That backup or “peaking” capacity can be called upon whenever needed, and it can run indefinitely. Since sunlight and wind are by definition impossible to dispatch at will, the critical question for planners is just how much electricity storage is required for a grid whose primary sources of energy are the sun and wind. Keep in mind that Moss Landing’s four hours of storage at 400 megawatts is worthless just one minute after the fourth hour.

The big issue at grid-scale isn’t the oft-noted diurnal variability of sunlight and wind. Rather, it’s the seasonal variabilities, along with the episodic nature of long, even multiday weather events of, say, continent-wide wind lulls (as Europe recently experienced) or total continental cloud cover. Multi-decade meteorological data shows that while it’s impossible to predict precisely when such episodes will occur, it is entirely predictable that they will occur, and frequently, over decades. The adage that it’s always sunny or windy somewhere in the country is simply not true over a span of such time. And, not incidentally, it is this reality that makes it clear that building more transmission lines can’t solve that problem.

Consider the implications just for California. If the rest of the nation switches to a solar/wind grid, California won’t be able to count on neighboring power plants to make up for losses during regional dips in wind and sunlight availability. (Imports currently supply one-fourth of the Golden State’s annual electricity.) An easy arithmetical approximation shows that a transitioned California would need about 100 Moss Landings, costing about $40 billion, to make it through a power drought of several days.

In these days of profligate government spending, $40 billion might not seem like too much—except, of course, if the sunlight/wind drought lasted just one more day. In that case, California would need to have another $10 billion in batteries on hand. And since none of the batteries being built or planned today will last for the several-decade lifespan of normal grid equipment, those batteries will need replacement, raising the total investment well above $100 billion. The alternative would be to just turn everything off whenever such multiday episodes occur. Another alternative? A California-scale conventional grid can be reliably operated for decades with about $10 billion worth of excess conventional generation.

Such disparities are even more sobering at the national level. One detailed analysis based on national meteorological data concluded that an all solar/wind grid could keep America’s lights on 99.97 percent of the time using just 12 hours of storage. That sounds good until you do the math. On average, that statistical level of reliability means there would be a few hours of zero power every year. But that doesn’t include the unpredictable but inevitable episodes—even as few as every couple of years—of continent-wide blackouts due to extended sunlight/wind droughts. Such a grid sounds “Third World,” not “high tech.” And we’d pay more for it. The same analysis finds that an all solar/wind grid requires at least twice today’s installed generating capacity. That’s because far more than the normal peak generation would be needed, not only to supply peak demand when sunlight and wind are available but also to generate surplus to store electricity in batteries.

Such realities expose the silliness of the oft-repeated claim that solar or wind power have achieved “grid parity,” meaning that they can produce electricity for about the same cost per kilowatt-hour as a conventional machine—when they’re running. To match the energy produced by one conventional machine each year, and for years on end, you need at least two solar/wind machines, plus the batteries. That combination puts the sun/wind/battery option at roughly triple the capital cost of grid-scale conventional power. Even so, the cost for 12 hours of storage at U.S. grid-level alone would be about $1.5 trillion, and that would still leave the nation episodically in the dark. The alternative? A conventional grid with about $100 billion worth of conventional backup/peakers.

Nonetheless, because of existing and expected subsidies and mandates, the Energy Information Administration forecasts a 7,000 percent increase in the quantity of grid-scale batteries on the nation’s grids over the coming decades. That would bring storage to a total of less than a half-hour of national demand.

One alternative is to follow Germany’s lead: keep a roughly equal-size shadow grid of conventional generation on hand as backup. The expense of such a solution would be borne not by the builders of solar/wind machines but by ratepayers. That solution is the main reason that the average German residential customer pays about 300 percent more for electricity than the average American. Worse, as Europe has discovered as its winter of discontent approaches, that dual-grid option is exposed to episodic and radical fuel-price spikes arising from the inevitable supply-chain interruptions. Price spikes happen when there’s a widespread jump in demand for any commodity, but especially when fuel buyers choose (in this case under government mandates) to avoid engaging in long-term, low-cost supplier agreements.

The other option is to claim that batteries will soon see “revolutionary” declines in cost. It’s hard to keep track of all the media reports about new “game-changing” battery technologies. The batteries that will be built today are those that exist now, not some fanciful new product of the future. Of course it’s reasonable to expect researchers to discover superior chemical concoctions, but it takes many years to go from discovery to industrial-scale production. The first Tesla sedan, circa 2012, didn’t show up for more than three decades after the Nobel-winning lithium discovery in the mid-1970s (by an Exxon researcher). And yes, lithium batteries will become cheaper over time, perhaps dropping in cost by half, as enthusiasts claim. But for systemic grid-scale storage to be affordable, as one detailed analysis observed, we need to see nearly 100-fold cost reductions, which are nowhere on the horizon.

This brings us to the physical roadblock impeding a magical transition to a battery-infused grid enabling sunlight and wind as primary energy. Batteries are an extremely expensive way to store energy in the main because they’re so material-intensive. It requires about 50 pounds of batteries to hold the amount of energy contained in one pound of oil. Obtaining the minerals needed to fabricate one 50-pound battery requires mining and processing roughly 25,000 pounds of materials. This kind of physical disparity really adds up at grid scales.

Building enough Moss Landing-class systems for 12 hours of storage for the U.S. alone would entail mining materials equal to what would be needed for two centuries’ worth of production of batteries for all the world’s smartphones. That doesn’t count the additional minerals needed for the transition to electric cars or the “energy minerals” needed to build the wind and solar machines themselves. It’s a little-noted fact that using wind/solar/battery machines to deliver the same amount of energy as conventional hydrocarbon machines requires about 1,000 percent more primary materials for fabrication.

The world isn’t now mining, nor is it planning to mine, a quantity of minerals and metals sufficient to build as many batteries as the transition roadmap requires. About this fact there is no dispute, even if it’s being ignored. In a surreal disconnect, the International Energy Agency’s own analysis of the astonishing, even impossible mineral demands required for the wind/solar/battery path was quickly followed by a different report proposing an even more aggressive pursuit of the energy transition. Meantime, another recent study from the Geological Survey of Finland totaled up the overall demand that the transition will create just for common minerals—for example, copper, nickel, graphite, and lithium—never mind the more exotic ones. They concluded that demand would exceed known global reserves of those minerals.

Just starting down the transition path will soon put unprecedented pressures on global mineral supply chains. In the real world of commodities, that will translate into higher prices. It’s puzzling to see so many analysts believing that batteries will become a lot cheaper given the fact that, as the IEA noted, raw materials alone make up from 50 percent to 70 percent of battery costs.

The mineral-intensive transition path has some troubling geopolitical implications as well. China is the largest source for most of the needed critical materials; by most accounts, Beijing controls nearly half that supply chain. The United States is a minor player. The rush to build battery assembly plants here in America is the equivalent of building cars here but importing all the gasoline.

The retort from transition advocates is invariably that “clean tech” is getting better at a putative “exponential” rate, just as we’ve seen happen in computing and communications. But physical infrastructures like roads, bridges, power plants, and big batteries simply cannot improve at the rate that information systems do. These are realities anchored in physics, not policies or subsidies. It’s true that grid-scale wind, solar, and battery machines are fabulously better than they were three decades ago, and that we should expect many more of them to be built even without subsidies and mandates. But it’s just as naïve today to think that wind/solar/battery machines could entirely replace conventional power systems as it was in the 1950s to think that nuclear energy would power not only all our grids but also our ships and cars. Nuclear energy at scale was a lot harder than many thought.

History may mark the summer of 2021—from Europe’s approaching cold and expensive winter to California’s teetering on systemic blackouts—as the point when the world began to test the limits of supply chains for providing and storing electricity. California is on track to see its cost of electricity blow past Germany’s sky-high levels. Even the California Public Utility Commission has observed that the path now charted will mean that “energy bills will become less affordable over time.”

If one were taking bets on the outcome of the race to zero carbon, odds are that consumer patience with soaring costs—in tandem with decreasing reliability—will be exhausted long before we have the opportunity to deplete the supply of critical energy minerals. Here, too, California is leading the way.



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He lays out the brutal reality very nicely. Unfortunately, we're still going to get force fed the renewable schitt sandwich in bigger and bigger bites.

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Greenies are dumb, oh wait, greenies are usually democrats so that makes sense.


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Forcing people into solar/wind is nothing other than a money play by the politically connected. The "greenie-weenies are just the useful idiots being used by the PTB.

Having said that, I am glad there are options for those of us who have places where grid power is either unavailable or prohibitively expensive...and are still addicted to electricity!


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We should follow China and everyone else and build more clean coal plants. There's no way they're going to keep up with all the electric vehicles coming on top of the growth in housing and population. By the end of the year there will be at least 2 million more consumers just with what Obiden pushed through our former border.

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I did not read the entire article
That said
I have property in Arizona and the closest grid power is 7 1/2 miles away from my place.
I assembled my own Solar System this past summer.
Yes it was costly
I have (8) 200 amp hr Lithium batteries in my system
2400 watts of solar panels at the present time but can go up to 6600 watts with out adding any more Charge Controllers to the system.
My System puts out 30 amps of 1ph 220v and (2) stings of 30 amp 120v. I can add another Inverter to make it 60 amps.

I have been running gas driven Generators when I have worked up on my property getting set up to retire up there.
I go threw between 15 and 25 gallons of gas in a 2 to 3 week period of time in the past.

This last time I went up about a month ago. I used 5 gallons of gas the first day because I needed to work some bugs out of my Solar System.
After I got the system working. I was operating a 2hp table saw , 2hp Miter saw. an 2 1/2 hp Air Compressor along with my skill saw at the same time I was running a Refrigerator , Lights and during the day an Air Conditioner or ceiling fan.
In Quiet at night I did not have to run the Generator to power stuff. The Batteries were a lot more than I needed and I could make Coffee in the morning with out going out and firing up the Generator.

It was sure nice to have my own Quiet power and not have to pay for gas.
I took my girl up about 2 years ago and we had to go 1 1/2 hours to town to purchase more gas because she was cooking in the 110 deg. afternoons. I think that trip cost us about 35 gallons of gas.

The grid being 7 1/2 miles away from my property and with technology the way it is.
I do not think that I will ever have the grid make it to my property in my life time.
I will not be the one paying for it any ways.

I agree that Battery back ups for an entire City is a Moron move.
This is not about securing a stable grid it is about Control.
The Battery Back ups make sense on an individual case depending on what the situation is.

My neighbor had a Solar System installed on his home here in Commyfornia.
He does not even know what he had installed.
We had a Black out for most of a day and most of an entire night.

He had nothing because his system feeds the grid at night. (No Storage)

I ran our Refrigerator , TV and A/C off of my Solar System until the Batteries were getting low.
Then I switched everything over to 1 of my Generators and saved the Batteries in my system for when we went to bed to run our Refrigerator all night .

It is nice to have your own Quiet back up system some times.
I made my system potable until We move to Arizona Permanently.

I am running a wire feed welder and Grinder off of the system right now saving on my grid electric bill since I have the prepaid power available to me.

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Technology continues to advance and the rate of advancement continues to accelerate. Someday in the future we will be able to supply our energy needs through so called "clean energy" and it may not be what we envision today. At this point in time hydroelectric power is the cleanest, most reliable source of energy but there is opposition to even that. Wind generators and solar panels have a much shortwr life span than coal, natural gas, nuclear and hydroelectric generators.
Legislating and subsidizing the "green" agenda before technology has made it feasible will cause severe disruption of our economy and life style. We need to let the market dictate when that happens not the government. Hopefully the destruction of these short sighted state's and nation's economies will spare the rest of us from the same fate.

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Originally Posted by 45_100
Technology continues to advance and the rate of advancement continues to accelerate. Someday in the future we will be able to supply our energy needs through so called "clean energy" and it may not be what we envision today. At this point in time hydroelectric power is the cleanest, most reliable source of energy but there is opposition to even that. Wind generators and solar panels have a much shortwr life span than coal, natural gas, nuclear and hydroelectric generators.
Legislating and subsidizing the "green" agenda before technology has made it feasible will cause severe disruption of our economy and life style. We need to let the market dictate when that happens not the government. Hopefully the destruction of these short sighted state's and nation's economies will spare the rest of us from the same fate.



You forgot to add.
Kick Backs and pay back to political beneficiaries.
You just have to look into who owns or benefits from all of the push from our Gooberment to get these systems up and running.
Follow the money.

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Huge strides in the tech for safe clean nuke last few years. Molten salt is just one of several. Small gas cooled units, some with pebble bed technology are being deployed right now. Now even bigger discoveries in glass storage of spent fuels. My guess is, this will be the light at the end of the tunnel (sorry about the pun, I can't help myself). I have always liked hydro...but I guess I'm the only cluck on the planet that does.


Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Originally Posted by funshooter
Originally Posted by 45_100
Technology continues to advance and the rate of advancement continues to accelerate. Someday in the future we will be able to supply our energy needs through so called "clean energy" and it may not be what we envision today. At this point in time hydroelectric power is the cleanest, most reliable source of energy but there is opposition to even that. Wind generators and solar panels have a much shortwr life span than coal, natural gas, nuclear and hydroelectric generators.
Legislating and subsidizing the "green" agenda before technology has made it feasible will cause severe disruption of our economy and life style. We need to let the market dictate when that happens not the government. Hopefully the destruction of these short sighted state's and nation's economies will spare the rest of us from the same fate.



You forgot to add.
Kick Backs and pay back to political beneficiaries.
You just have to look into who owns or benefits from all of the push from our Gooberment to get these systems up and running.
Follow the money.


Always happens. Don't forget that Al "Gomer" Gore made a couple hundred million $$$$$ with his "green" schemes. And Obama's funding of Solendra (??) made about $500,000,000 for the founders on their bankrupt fiasco. It never fails. As said, "Follow the money."

L.W.


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Steve:

That was an interesting read, focused on the supply side of the electrical equation, but the demand side will also change radically as natural gas is banned from use in homes, commercial applications and electrical generation. As gas and diesel powered mobility is taxed into oblivion, electric mobility will be the only options. Therefore, the only fuel will be electricity, putting all of our energy eggs in one fragile basket. I always thought diversity was a good thing.

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The insanity of the insane is forever................................

Ol' Joe's days of darkness will be upon us if the insane are allowed to continue with their insanity.

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If they really, truly wanted to transition away from coal and NG, they'd be pushing nukes. But....


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Wait until this Bible prophesy kicks in. A time is coming when there will be no wind at all, anywhere on earth. It doesn't say how long that will last but think about it. No mixing of air so hot places get hotter and cold places get colder. No wind for the windmills. No wind to clear the smog from cities.

Revelation 7:1 "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree."


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Well, if no one except the elites can afford it, supply WILL meet demand. All we need to do is kill off 80% of the worlds population, and viola- "green (or "clean" - but it ain't - mining nd processing is dirty.). energy" it is.

Plenty of materials , infrastructure, etc to go around then. And empty spaces out of view to put them on, and big ugly open pit mines out of sight/out of mind. Keep enough serfs around to work it...

Problem solved!

Yeah, fun shooter. It works for your situation.

Now multiply that by 8 billion people.

No dis - just math. It is why gold isn't used as currency world-wide.

Not to mention those who live in far northern or southern climates . where/when the sun don't shine (azzholes of the world? smile ). Often wind is pretty good in such places - but not always. Kotzebue.AK has windmills that power about 17% of their electrical needs when the wind blows and the mills aren't broken. It saves, I read, about a million gallons of fuel oil annually at the power plant. Dunno how the cost efficiency breaks down.

Nome has a wind farm too.

Wind and solar must always be considered supplemental, rather than primary.

Tidal and hydroelectric are more consistent and reliable sources of "clean" energy. Hydroelectric usually efs up river system ecologies, tho. All technology has "hidden" costs, which are often overlooked when convenient.

Are the Kennedys and other Hyanisport elites still blocking that wind farm that would f*ck up their view?

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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Wait until this Bible prophesy kicks in. A time is coming when there will be no wind at all, anywhere on earth. It doesn't say how long that will last but think about it. No mixing of air so hot places get hotter and cold places get colder. No wind for the windmills. No wind to clear the smog from cities.

Revelation 7:1 "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree."


Fiction isn't going to help real problems.


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Steve; great article thanks for sharing it.

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Originally Posted by Steve
To have battery backups for 12 hours of storage for the U.S. alone would entail mining materials equal to what would be needed for two centuries’ worth of production of batteries for all the world’s smartphones.



!

A Ford F250 diesel uses two centuries worth of steel required to shoe a horse!

Ban F250's! All we need is horses!


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Wait until this Bible prophesy kicks in. A time is coming when there will be no wind at all, anywhere on earth. It doesn't say how long that will last but think about it. No mixing of air so hot places get hotter and cold places get colder. No wind for the windmills. No wind to clear the smog from cities.

Revelation 7:1 "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree."



Consider this below (from a quick search). I believe most of Revelation is written in apocalyptic language, used elsewhere in scripture. So we don't take it literally, nor do we have to guess at the meaning. Just see where else the language was used (like sun, moon and stars...used metaphorically numerous times in the OT). :

Hebrews 1:7, winds represent angels: “In speaking of the angels he says, ‘He makes his angels winds.’”1 I believe the four winds being held back in v. 1 are the four horsemen of Revelation 6. As noted by G.K. Beale the four horsemen of Revelation 6:1-8 are “modeled” after the four horsemen of Zechariah 6:1-8 who are explicitly identified as “the four winds of heaven” in Zechariah 6:5:2“And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four winds of heaven, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth [emphasis mine].”3 The word translated winds in Zechariah 6:5 is ruach which is also often translated spirits. Ruach means breath, wind, spirit.


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My thread has devolved into a theological argument.

I have arrived...


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