Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Where can I find .285 cal. bullets?

I'm starting to work with a rifle that's come down to me through the family. I posted in a different thread how they'd always loaded for this rifle with "48.0" of "4831" with "9 1/2" primers pushing "160 Nosler" bullets. Doing my best to recreate that load in the present day (H4831sc, F210, 160 NP, PPU cases), the chronograph showed an average of 2,507 fps. I suppose all those sheep, deer, moose, elk, goats, and the wolverine will be coming back to life now that they know the bullets were going too slow...

The barrel is marked, "7 m/m", and 'twas always represented to me as a "7 millimeter Mauser". However, I was leafing through an account of my Great Grandad's 1940 expedition to Western Alberta, and happened upon this passage:



It got me to thinking - maybe that's the reason the rifle's preferred load is so slow: I've been using .284 bullets, & letting all the propellent go flying past the undersized bullets on their way down the barrel.

Since it's my intention to make the ol' girl sing like she used to, I'd be mighty grateful if someone could help me locate those .285 bullets.

Thanks much,

FC

First off, a thousandth of an inch isn't going to matter much. It is possible to bump a bullet up providing the bullet is not too hard and you have the appropriate die but you would have to want to do it. Expensive die, special press, a lot of work. GD

You might consider slugging the bore so you know what you need.

Slug the bore...but you are getting carried away, a thou is nothing. I routinely shoot targets in a Mosin Nagant that slugs .314 with .311-.312 bullets. Right at moa. Same with Lee Enfield .316 groove, .312 bullets, consistent 2.2 moa. Your "old Mauser" almost without question has a long freebore to accomodate the original 175 gr roundnose. My 7x57 has a euro throat and I have to go 4 grains over any published load to even get 2600 fps with 160 gr bullet, H414.

Slugging the bore might or might not reveal anything useful.

One handy thing about Nosler Partitions is if you give 'em a pretty good boot in the butt, the exposed rear tends to "bump up" in diameter slightly, one reason Partitions often shoot more accurately with maximum loads--or a slightly faster-burning powder. I've gotten 160 Partition to shoot well in SOME 7x57s and H4831, but in general they tend to shoot better with IMR or H4350, or something similar, such as IMR4451, which I've pretty much switched to, having grown weary of the "search for H4350" drama.

Adding, modern 4831 is IMO too slow a powder for the 7x57...4350 is about as slow as you need. Many, many rifles showing a marked preference for 760 or H414. But I'd bet the 4831 listed in notes that came with the rifle, is the old mil surp stuff that put Hodgdon in business way back when. It was quite a bit closer to the 4350's of today in burn rate.

At 50k+ PSI, any lead-core bullet is going to slug up to fit the bore. If you are trying to get cast bullets to shoot, it's another story, but bullets change shape to match the bore when they are under- and over-size, due to the pressure exerted upon them.

Could the .285 been a mistake. I’ve never heard of a .285

Only reason I like a slug is insurance...it's one chance in a million, but way back when the .280 Ross and certain British makers fooled with .287 grooves...apparently various sporting rifles may have been produced for "the good old chap" crowd. Rock Island auctions just sold a couple a few years ago. Not that a .284 bullet in a .287 rifle is not do'able...but our Canuckian cousins tell us it's not a candidate for winning matches.

Perhaps my sarcasm was not evident. I was just yanking y’all’s chain.

For what it’s worth, one of Mr. J.H. Shirk’s earlier journals thanked Omar for lending him his “.35-06 rifle”, and commented favorably on its killing power. Surely they had Whelens by then. I’m guessing, “.285” special Mauser” was just another contemporaneous misnomer. The rifle says “Griffin & Howe” on the barrel. It ain’t a Remington, but they probably knew what they were doing.

It’s never had anything but .284 bullets down its barrel, to my knowledge. Before chronographs, I guess they just loaded whatever Outdoor Life told them to, and killed stuff.

In any case, I was hoping to step those 160 noslers up toward 2700 ft./s. It appears the standard loadings of my forbears were not anywhere close, but that didn’t stop them from taking an impressive amount of game.

FC

Wasn't your Dall load toading along?

I just tested "new" H4831 against my last unopened can of mil-surp H4831 a couple years ago. The old powder had all the signs of being jsut fine--and using the same 61.0 grain powder charge and primer, in the same .270 cases with the same 130-grain Hornady Spire Points seated to the same depth, the old powder got around 90 fps more velocity. But that is long way from being closer to the various 4350's of today..

Having used a lot of mil-surp H4831 over the years, I have come to suspect that too much has been concluded about the powder in general from different lots. I can't imagine the military stuff was being carefully blended to result in approximately the same burn rate, as most companies do with handloading powders today. They had to crank it out so more ammo could be loaded and shipped, and different lots could have different burn-rates.

Will add that I have gotten excellent accuracy in more than one 7x57 with the 160 Partition with today's Extreme H4831, whether short-cut or "long-cut."

That was in a 7x57 MR, and those 154 Hornady's were actually loafing at 2,500 or less. I've since moved 'em to the high 2,600's over H4350. Alas, I haven't been able to sheep-test them, but the ram head is still on the wall, and the meat was consumed years ago.




Thanks for that data, MD. I actually misspoke in the OP. The 2,504 fps was from 46.0 grains of H4350. Some of the notes from yore spoke of 48.0 grains of [nondescript] 4350 with the 160's, but that seemed too hot to start with, according to several sources. I started with 45.5 and 46.0, to save the rifle, and my fingers any... discomfort.

In any event, the 48.0 grain H4831sc load gave 2,280 fps.




... and now that you mention it, that 2,280 fps load's group measured .979' with me doing the shooting, behind a 2 1/2x scope. What's that line about, "Speed is fine, but accuracy is _______ ."

I'll work my way up a couple grains with each powder, & see what awaits. This rifle is destined to pursue sheep once again.

FC

Reading comprehension has taken a hit in this thread. Pretty obvious he was foolin.

JB, you're right, I mis read my notes, 56 gr 4350 got the same vel as 59 gr of the really old 4831 that came in paper sacks. Don't know how much I can trust the velocity, I had one of the first chronographs in my county, it had rotary switches you turned to get a yes or no to get a 4 digit code...which you then looked up in a book which gave you the velocity. Haw, date on my notes was 1959. People drove for a hundred mile to chronograph their loads...and paid a six pack of Olympia.

Woodleigh has .287 caliber bullets for the 7x57 H&H, these could be swagged down if you really wanted to go to the effort.

Sometime about 20 years ago I contacted Wolff magazine's Load Data for advice on a temp stable powder to use for best velocity with 160's in 7x57, someone named Barsness answered to recommend H4831. It turned out to be very good advice and even after trying a few others like Hunter and Big Game, H4831 remains my top choice.

Thanks again JB!

The OP might want to take a look at Re17. I've been getting some interesting results with that powder and 150 gr. Nosler Partitions regarding velocity and accuracy. I've been thinking on try Re17 with some 160 gr. bullets I have on hand as soon as I can get some free time.
Paul B.

Could be the Western Canada Cold Vortex, but I’ve never had any success finding .340” bullets for my Wby

When Mauser developed the 7x57, they established the minimum groove diameter as 0.2854 with a max of about 0.289. This was long before CIP or SAAMI existed. The three Oberndorf Model 98s I have had in 7x57 each had groove diameters of 0.2854”. One from 1908, two from 1935. The VZ 24s I have had in 7x57 had groove diameters of 0.287. A new 19” FN replacement barrel has grooves of .289+. Why the US settled on .284 is a mystery to me. Woodleigh has cataloged 160 and 175 grain bullets of .287 diameter, advertising them for the .280 Ross. Which makes me think Ross either used Mauser barrels or maybe rechambered a Mauser 7mm rifle for his development work. As others have stated here, the Nosler partitions do well when fired in rifles with the European bore dimensions, as do older “cup and core” bullets as made by Speer or Sierra which you can find sometimes at gun shows. Once while searching on the net for the diameter of 7mm bullets I found a reference citing an order from Brazil for a bazillion 7x57 cartridges, loaded with 162 gr boat tail bullets to a velocity of 2660 fps and with a diameter of 0.286”.