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Campfire Outfitter
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this idea that rioters cannot be shot for burning and looting is certainly a media narrative.
This "riots are the voice of the unheard" horseshit is justification in their eyes to become anarchists OF COURSE rioters can be shot... just do it quietly and from a few hundred yards. This ain't rocket science fellas. I've read stories of Israelis shooting calves and knees of rioters to take them out. They consider that humane. That would just get lawyers rich here I'm familiar with the tactic, but from a better source closer to the issue, they are Mossad, and clandestinely gut shoot the dangerous ones with suppressed .22lr. That gets the others to thinking they may not want a dose of that... If I were the one calling the shots, I would invest heavily in getting the National Guard up to speed on riot control, and take the decision to use them out of the hands of governors and into the hands of police chiefs (with some caveats) I question into the hands of Police Chiefs, most of whom are appointed by Mayors. We’ve quite a recent history of how stand down orders have been issued by Police Chiefs and the Mayors that appoint them. Jmo
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Campfire Ranger
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The prospect of a civil trial in our (liberal) state scares me almost worse than having to use a gun in self-defense.
Our juries tend to be lead by emotion and not facts. This is more or less factual everywhere; at a minimum, half the country (ie, a jury of your peers) doesn't think that you have a right to self defense via deadly force in ANY situation, regardless of the letter of the law. Best hope is to never be involved in such a circumstance by avoiding allowing yourself of family from being in a high risk situation. MM
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Campfire Ranger
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this idea that rioters cannot be shot for burning and looting is certainly a media narrative.
This "riots are the voice of the unheard" horseshit is justification in their eyes to become anarchists OF COURSE rioters can be shot... just do it quietly and from a few hundred yards. This ain't rocket science fellas. I've read stories of Israelis shooting calves and knees of rioters to take them out. They consider that humane. That would just get lawyers rich here I'm familiar with the tactic, but from a better source closer to the issue, they are Mossad, and clandestinely gut shoot the dangerous ones with suppressed .22lr. That gets the others to thinking they may not want a dose of that... If I were the one calling the shots, I would invest heavily in getting the National Guard up to speed on riot control, and take the decision to use them out of the hands of governors and into the hands of police chiefs (with some caveats) I question into the hands of Police Chiefs, most of whom are appointed by Mayors. We’ve quite a recent history of how stand down orders have been issued by Police Chiefs and the Mayors that appoint them. Jmo after seeing the Governors pick and choose when to use them for political purposes, I would hope that a police chief - with criteria - would at least be motivated to do his job in protecting the city and the citizens. If a police chief lets a city burn when he can call in the national guard and he doesn't, that's on the citizens for electing a liberal nut job, especially when chances are the rioters are out there because of what one of his policeman did. I recognize a chief answers to the mayor, but again, my logic was, you establish criteria when the national guard can be deployed, and if that criteria is met, then the police chief can do it, (and maybe include a mayor and governor, but not limited to) Its not perfect but I just think they are underutilized and often its because of them being a political football.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 26,570 Likes: 17 |
this idea that rioters cannot be shot for burning and looting is certainly a media narrative.
This "riots are the voice of the unheard" horseshit is justification in their eyes to become anarchists OF COURSE rioters can be shot... just do it quietly and from a few hundred yards. This ain't rocket science fellas. I've read stories of Israelis shooting calves and knees of rioters to take them out. They consider that humane. That would just get lawyers rich here I'm familiar with the tactic, but from a better source closer to the issue, they are Mossad, and clandestinely gut shoot the dangerous ones with suppressed .22lr. That gets the others to thinking they may not want a dose of that... If I were the one calling the shots, I would invest heavily in getting the National Guard up to speed on riot control, and take the decision to use them out of the hands of governors and into the hands of police chiefs (with some caveats) I question into the hands of Police Chiefs, most of whom are appointed by Mayors. We’ve quite a recent history of how stand down orders have been issued by Police Chiefs and the Mayors that appoint them. Jmo I recognize a chief answers to the mayor, A good chief answers to his oath and to his loyalty to the law.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2021
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this idea that rioters cannot be shot for burning and looting is certainly a media narrative.
This "riots are the voice of the unheard" horseshit is justification in their eyes to become anarchists OF COURSE rioters can be shot... just do it quietly and from a few hundred yards. This ain't rocket science fellas. I've read stories of Israelis shooting calves and knees of rioters to take them out. They consider that humane. That would just get lawyers rich here I'm familiar with the tactic, but from a better source closer to the issue, they are Mossad, and clandestinely gut shoot the dangerous ones with suppressed .22lr. That gets the others to thinking they may not want a dose of that... If I were the one calling the shots, I would invest heavily in getting the National Guard up to speed on riot control, and take the decision to use them out of the hands of governors and into the hands of police chiefs (with some caveats) I question into the hands of Police Chiefs, most of whom are appointed by Mayors. We’ve quite a recent history of how stand down orders have been issued by Police Chiefs and the Mayors that appoint them. Jmo after seeing the Governors pick and choose when to use them for political purposes, I would hope that a police chief - with criteria - would at least be motivated to do his job in protecting the city and the citizens. If a police chief lets a city burn when he can call in the national guard and he doesn't, that's on the citizens for electing a liberal nut job, especially when chances are the rioters are out there because of what one of his policeman did. I recognize a chief answers to the mayor, but again, my logic was, you establish criteria when the national guard can be deployed, and if that criteria is met, then the police chief can do it, (and maybe include a mayor and governor, but not limited to) Its not perfect but I just think they are underutilized and often its because of them being a political football. Your last paragraph makes my point better than I said it. But you’re absolutely right about using the NG. Presently they are worthless for riot control.
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Campfire Ranger
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And you have bought into the BS narrative the prosecution presented. Attempting a Citizens Arrest is not false imprisonment. Arbery had two choices: 1. Comply and wait for the police or 2. Attack those who were attempting a citizens arrest. He choose poorly. And as I said, 20 years ago this wouldn't have made the news. There are thousands of similar cases that never were prosecuted. We live in different times. I have no sympathy whatsoever for Arbery - https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/...facts-the-jury-will-probably-never-hear/If nothing else, you help make my point that after you pull the trigger, the "reasonable" standard no longer belongs to you. Listening to Barnes talk about it, he said a pretty astute statement - first, ask yourself if you really believe citizens have a right to perform a citizens arrest? If you see a rape going on , do you not do anything and call the police? so if you assume a citizen has the right to perform a citizens arrest, then put a police uniform on the McMichaels. Someone calls them and says they believe a felony is happening, the suspect is described and known in the neighborhood as someone suspected of committing past felonies, they arrive and once confronted about being detained until it can sorted out by proper authorities , flees. When confronted, he goes after a weapon and is shot. No police officer would be going to trial over that. also, as he explains it, the Georgia Law as it relates to escaping a felony goes back to the civil war era. The prosecutor essentially made up the the idea the law says you have to see a felony occurring to perform a citizens arrest. Attempting to or actually escaping felony has no time limit under the law. The escape part was specifically written to address slaves escaping and it has nothing to do with escaping a felony that just happened. Finally, I guess there is some ambiguity but the use of a firearm , in this case, one that isn't concealed and is legal, would be used for self defense. While I'm sure wink wink nod nod they only used it for self defense in the attempted detaining of Arbery, the stand your ground laws and open carry are pretty clear in Georgia. If it weren't for that video, I think many people agree they wouldn't have been prosecuted.
Last edited by KFWA; 12/03/21.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Specifically about using deadly force in self-defense.
It is staggering how few gun owners and carriers have read their state's self defense laws. Let me lay down a few bullet points on self defense.
1. Read your state's laws and know their specific language.
2. Know that the specific language was chosen purposefully.
3. The words feel, felt, and feelings don't appear in any state's law that I know of. The word fear appears in very few. Reasonable belief and reasonably believe appear in all of them that I have read. There's an important reason for that.
4. If you ever use deadly force in self defense it is going to suck in countless ways. You really do want to avoid it as much as you can. It can be expensive.
5. When you use deadly force, you need to know that your definition of reasonable no longer matters. Law enforcement and jurors get to decide what is reasonable from that point forward.
6. Your social media postings WILL become known. Lot's of keyboard bravado here and elsewhere on the worldwide web. If your day comes, you'll get to explain to the court how it was harmless, idle chest thumping all 207 times you did it on the net, and not an indication of your true mindset.
7. Using deadly force is not a casual undertaking.
Agreed to all above...
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69
Pro-Constitution.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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this idea that rioters cannot be shot for burning and looting is certainly a media narrative.
This "riots are the voice of the unheard" horseshit is justification in their eyes to become anarchists OF COURSE rioters can be shot... just do it quietly and from a few hundred yards. This ain't rocket science fellas. I've read stories of Israelis shooting calves and knees of rioters to take them out. They consider that humane. That would just get lawyers rich here I'm familiar with the tactic, but from a better source closer to the issue, they are Mossad, and clandestinely gut shoot the dangerous ones with suppressed .22lr. That gets the others to thinking they may not want a dose of that... If I were the one calling the shots, I would invest heavily in getting the National Guard up to speed on riot control, and take the decision to use them out of the hands of governors and into the hands of police chiefs (with some caveats) I question into the hands of Police Chiefs, most of whom are appointed by Mayors. We’ve quite a recent history of how stand down orders have been issued by Police Chiefs and the Mayors that appoint them. Jmo I recognize a chief answers to the mayor, A good chief answers to his oath and to his loyalty to the law. A police chief answers to his boss. Period.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 26,570 Likes: 17 |
And you have bought into the BS narrative the prosecution presented. Attempting a Citizens Arrest is not false imprisonment. Arbery had two choices: 1. Comply and wait for the police or 2. Attack those who were attempting a citizens arrest. He choose poorly. And as I said, 20 years ago this wouldn't have made the news. There are thousands of similar cases that never were prosecuted. We live in different times. I have no sympathy whatsoever for Arbery - https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/...facts-the-jury-will-probably-never-hear/If nothing else, you help make my point that after you pull the trigger, the "reasonable" standard no longer belongs to you. Listening to Barnes talk about it, he said a pretty astute statement - first, ask yourself if you really believe citizens have a right to perform a citizens arrest? If you see a rape going on , do you not do anything and call the police? so if you assume a citizen has the right to perform a citizens arrest, then put a police uniform on the McMichaels. Someone calls them and says they believe a felony is happening, the suspect is described and known in the neighborhood as someone suspected of committing past felonies, they arrive and once confronted about being detained until it can sorted out by proper authorities , flees. When confronted, he goes after a weapon and is shot. No police officer would be going to trial over that. also, as he explains it, the Georgia Law as it relates to escaping a felony goes back to the civil war era. The prosecutor essentially made up the the idea the law says you have to see a felony occurring to perform a citizens arrest. Attempting to or actually escaping felony has no time limit under the law. The escape part was specifically written to address slaves escaping and it has nothing to do with escaping a felony that just happened. Finally, I guess there is some ambiguity but the use of a firearm , in this case, one that isn't concealed and is legal, would be used for self defense. While I'm sure wink wink nod nod they only used it for self defense in the attempted detaining of Arbery, the stand your ground laws and open carry are pretty clear in Georgia. If it weren't for that video, I think many people agree they wouldn't have been prosecuted. This goes back to the need to know the law. GA law at the time did not allow the McMichaels to effect a citizens arrest on Arbery in the way that they did based upon what Arbery had done. That's why they were charged and convicted on felony false imprisonment charges. Arming yourself for self defense carries with it terrible responsibilities. Arming yourself to effect citizens arrest, more so yet.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm not sure I agree with that based on what I've heard from lawyers studying the case, not to mention, Georgia felt the need to repeal/change the law after a detailed review of what the McMichaels did.
But I'm not an expert, I just listen to people that I believe are experts and their evaluation of it. And I've heard them say it should have never went to trial and their reasons why
Last edited by KFWA; 12/03/21.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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this idea that rioters cannot be shot for burning and looting is certainly a media narrative.
This "riots are the voice of the unheard" horseshit is justification in their eyes to become anarchists OF COURSE rioters can be shot... just do it quietly and from a few hundred yards. This ain't rocket science fellas. I've read stories of Israelis shooting calves and knees of rioters to take them out. They consider that humane. That would just get lawyers rich here I'm familiar with the tactic, but from a better source closer to the issue, they are Mossad, and clandestinely gut shoot the dangerous ones with suppressed .22lr. That gets the others to thinking they may not want a dose of that... If I were the one calling the shots, I would invest heavily in getting the National Guard up to speed on riot control, and take the decision to use them out of the hands of governors and into the hands of police chiefs (with some caveats) It is actually quite terrifying how much faith you have in your fellow man or Politicians. My old boxing coach was a great man... I remember making some panty waste Kumbaya comment once and he just hammered me... "Your fellow man is a FOOL to be avoided at all costs... friends... and family sometimes... can be trusted."
If you are not actively engaging EVERY enemy you encounter... you are allowing another to fight for you... and that is cowardice... plain and simple.
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Campfire Ranger
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Don't need to read state laws when the time comes.
"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
Thomas Jefferson
GeoW, The "Unwoke" ...Let's go Brandon!
"A Well Regulated Militia" Life Member
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2010
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this idea that rioters cannot be shot for burning and looting is certainly a media narrative.
This "riots are the voice of the unheard" horseshit is justification in their eyes to become anarchists OF COURSE rioters can be shot... just do it quietly and from a few hundred yards. This ain't rocket science fellas. I've read stories of Israelis shooting calves and knees of rioters to take them out. They consider that humane. That would just get lawyers rich here I'm familiar with the tactic, but from a better source closer to the issue, they are Mossad, and clandestinely gut shoot the dangerous ones with suppressed .22lr. That gets the others to thinking they may not want a dose of that... If I were the one calling the shots, I would invest heavily in getting the National Guard up to speed on riot control, and take the decision to use them out of the hands of governors and into the hands of police chiefs (with some caveats) It is actually quite terrifying how much faith you have in your fellow man or Politicians. My old boxing coach was a great man... I remember making some panty waste Kumbaya comment once and he just hammered me... "Your fellow man is a FOOL to be avoided at all costs... friends... and family sometimes... can be trusted." well, its not so much faith as it is during riots I don't think citizens should ever be put in the position to solely defend their property or life. The reason I said police chiefs is because a governor can get away with letting a city burn to appease the liberals, but a police chief cannot. If there is a check box of criteria on when to deploy the national guard, and a police chief does not, the assumption is there is going to be hell to pay afterwards if the city burns. Now there may be a much better way, and admittedly my suggestion may have major holes - but I can't get past the police standing around watching rioters burn down a neighborhood in Kenosha, and if it was because they were outnumbered, then I'd want a process to help anticipate and even up the odds other than a governor trying to show how woke he is and relying on a 17 year old taking up arms.
Last edited by KFWA; 12/03/21.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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I'm not sure I agree with that based on what I've heard from lawyers studying the case, not to mention, Georgia felt the need to repeal/change the law after a detailed review of what the McMichaels did.
But I'm not an expert, I just listen to people that I believe are experts and their evaluation of it. And I've heard them say it should have never went to trial and their reasons why
Here's what the law said: A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion. Arbery was trying to escape. What felony did he commit?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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First off, I hope to go to my grave a fat, old, and happy man, having to never use a weapon in self defense of myself or a loved one.
Having said that, I do have a policy with U.S. Law Shield in case the above does not happen.
I have taken a few classes in the last several months about what the laws in TN are.
One thing I took from one of the classes (taught by a Pro 2nd amendment lawyer) was "If you can avoid a shooting, you should". I took that to heart.
And the prosecution will twist that into you are a trained killer with the intent to kill. They may try, but it's pretty easily defensible. Tell that to the McMichael's. Their actions, when examined in the light of GA law, is what spelled doom for them. When their actions rose to the level of felony false imprisonment, under GA law, they forfeited their right to self defense. That's another part of the reason I implore people to read their self defense laws. As I said, you pull the trigger, you cannot depend on the law for defense any longer. If the events of the McMichael's shooting had occurred 20 years ago, it would never have seen the light of day in court and it is not because we are a now a more enlightened society either. Activist DA's, AG's, and judges changed all that. Whites with a gun are now the terrorists and criminals. You do not appear to understand GA self defense law. This seems crystal clear to me. (b) A person is not justified in using force under the circumstances specified in subsection (a) of this Code section if he: (2) Is attempting to commit, committing, or fleeing after the commission or attempted commission of a felony; The McMichaels were committing the felony act of false imprisonment when they used deadly force. The law clearly establishes that they cannot do that. Is that not clear to you under the language of the law? You cannot depend upon the law protecting you when you operate outside of the constraints of the law. At the time they had the legal right to make a citizens arrest if they reasonably thought a crime was committed, therefore the right to detain https://www.npr.org/2021/10/26/1048...w-in-the-trial-over-ahmaud-arberys-death
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Outfitter
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Some years ago we had a real bad ass move into town.All of a sudden there is a rash of homes broken into,cars stolen or messed with.I called up the County Sheriff to complain .He told me,you own a back hoe,take care of it.Did`nt have to.He got killed in a car crash.
Its all right to be white!!
Stupidity left unattended will run rampant
Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
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Campfire Tracker
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Arming yourself for self defense carries with it terrible responsibilities. Attempting to take away a firearm from another person carries with it a potential terrible result.
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Campfire Ranger
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As I understand it Burglary.
1. he has a criminal record of past theft
2. he has a history of attempted burglary in the area and this is documented
3. he was seen trespassing in a dwelling, which even under construction, still applies to at a minimum second degree burglary
4. You can be arrested for burglary even if you didn't steal anything if it is believed you had intent,. which had been established with his criminal record and past complaints.
if you argue they didn't have immediate knowledge of a felony in that case, they had immediate knowledge of past felonies, which the escape applies in the citizen's arrest. That's why Georgia expedited changing the law afterwards.
Last edited by KFWA; 12/03/21.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Campfire Ranger
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.I called up the County Sheriff to complain .He told me,you own a back hoe,take care of it. LOL, that's awesome
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Some years ago we had a real bad ass move into town.All of a sudden there is a rash of homes broken into,cars stolen or messed with.I called up the County Sheriff to complain .He told me,you own a back hoe,take care of it.Did`nt have to.He got killed in a car crash. With the cost of diesel fuel nowadays... I just keep a jug of molasses handy.
If you are not actively engaging EVERY enemy you encounter... you are allowing another to fight for you... and that is cowardice... plain and simple.
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