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Doc do you really believe the position you supported??

I’m not being called out for using the example of a member who died, although they pretend that’s the case.

I’m being called out for daring to make these self-righteous jaybirds uncomfortable for their possible complicity in someone’s death because of the opinions they so strongly voiced (and still do, some of them). It’s just fine for them to point fingers at me and other docs for coming out in favor of the vaccines in 2021, telling me I’m responsible for some untold imaginary number of vaccine-related deaths, but it’s a horror to them for me to point a finger back and tell them they may be culpable in some part for EE’s death.

It was the “experts” he pilloried, actually. And his examples were pretty good. There are other examples that were put up by other economists at the time, so there’s room for some argument, but I think in the main his point was a good one. We need to be skeptical of experts.

Pretty sure it was intellectuals...

https://medium.com/arc-digital/thomas-sowell-on-intellectuals-7447fec0e055

The problem with intellectuals is they have a false sense of hubris.... my guess would be that "hubris" was instilled by universities blowing smoke up their azz and the student not having enough smarts to recognize it.
Humility is a useful quality.

Gruff, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I appreciate you saying that my responses here have come across as honest and forthright. I have really tried to be.

Your points about what I, you, and we know about Ethan’s illness and death are valid. We only know what we were told, and that was second-hand for me, so if I have overstepped and offended, I’m sorry. Truly.

But I didn’t bring up EE lightly. I wanted to make the admittedly uncomfortable point that some of our members may have, by taking the strong position they have about CoV2, unintentionally contributed to someone becoming much more ill or even dying from the disease. I did not raise Ethan’s case to strike back at anyone. But the reality is that many people were injured by discounting the situation.

Example: I had a guy, 53, come in to the ER last July at the peak of the Delta outbreak with an O2 sat in the low 70’s. Covid pneumonia. He’d been sick for days, getting worse, but refusing to see a doctor because he didn’t believe Covid was a real thing, according to his wife. His friends and his family all had the same view, and in that “echo chamber” it was hard for him to seek help. By the time I saw him, he was in real trouble. I spent as much time as I could explaining to his wife how bad it was, but the stark fact was that he was on death’s door and I had to intubate him right then, and he was in no condition to sign informed consent. So that’s what we did. And as it happened, I had a few minutes after we got him stabilized to sit down and chat with her.

This man was a tradesman, a contractor with a couple of employees, 2 kids in high school. He couldn’t afford health insurance, didn’t have any life insurance, and he was the sole breadwinner for the family. The look on her face haunts me. She could see that her husband’s illness was going to destroy them financially, so she was trying to come to grips with that while at the same time facing the reality that she might be losing the love of her life in the near future. She kept saying she had tried to get him to take the vaccine (she had), but that he had angrily refused on several occasions. She said she wished he hadn’t listened to his friends.

I wish I could say I stayed with her and prayed with her, or at least cried with her, but I didn’t. I left that her in that room and went into the next room to deal with another man who was gasping for breath because of Covid pneumonia. There was no time for tears or any more compassion than I had already showed. The man I left in that room on the ventilator left this earth less than a week later, dying in our ICU. I have dealt with dozens, scores of cases like that one since early 2020. The vast majority of those worst cases happened between July 1 and Halloween last year.

Could this man have perhaps lived if he’d come in for treatment sooner, or if he’d been vaccinated? Perhaps. Would he have been more likely to have sought medical help if his peer group wasn’t going to call him a “covtard”? There’s no way to know. But his peer group’s efforts to dismiss CoV2 didn’t help.

I can’t separate that man’s case from my feeling about Ethan’s tragic death. That is why I brought it up.

I’m as pizzed off about our government’s horrible handling of the pandemic response as you are. Every word you wrote on that gets a “yea, and amen!” from me. My respect for many of my medical colleagues is lost. My contempt for the so-called medical leadership in the western world is unprintable. The damage I have personally taken because of all these needless deaths over the past 2+ years is severe. I can take some solace in the kind words from many members here, mostly in PM’s but also in the open forum, and for that I am very, very thankful.

Thanks again for writing your response.

I'm going to stay out of the weeds and just focus on this one premise.

It was decided that society wide social distancing, even to the point of government imposed lock downs, was the best response to a respiratory virus that proved deadly in mostly identifiable populations. Further, that our best hope of ending society wide social distancing was mass vaccination with the aid of a new vaccine technology (mRNA). The mRNA platform afforded the primary advantages of rapid vaccine development and the ability to subsequently produce massive quantities in a comparatively short time frame and at very low cost. Pursuing the promise of this new vaccine technology meant discounting widely accepted notions about the dangers of population wide use of leaky non-sterilizing vaccines. It even meant abandoning a century old definition of vaccine.

All this while, it was clear that certain groups, for instance anyone under 40 without multiple serious medical conditions, were at very low risk of serious illness or death, very low.

Alternatively, It should be no surprise that the now dominant Omicron variant came from the continent of Africa, which is home to many of the world's least vaccinated populations.

Similarly, if we were to recognize natural immunity, the immunity conferred by an Omicron infection is both much more robust and much more durable than immunity conferred from the mRNA vaccines. Further, Omicron confers this robust and durable immunity without the risk profile associated with Alpha and Delta strains.

One might well argue that we would have overcome COVID-19 had we only isolated and mRNA vaccinated truly at risk populations—that a mild (immunity conferring) strain would have emerged quicker and at a vastly reduced overall cost to individuals and society, if we'd not isolated and mRNA vaccinated school children and college students and young people.

What if we'd have let the virus, virus.

We didn't and no reasonable retrospective should exclude an accounting of the extraordinarily unique public health response to this virus. Nor should it exclude an examination into why those most qualified to question the wisdom of this particular public health response (healthcare professionals and scientists) were largely silent.

The indiscriminate use of medications has never proven effective.

Yours was truly an awful position to be in.

This was the greatest betrayal of our governments and public health institutions in a lifetime.

You have my respect and sympathy.

I took the two shots at the advice of my MD. He took them as well. I probably know more about gun's than him, but I figure he knows more about medicine than myself.

A good friend of mine, lost his Mother and Brother to Covid. Almost lost another Brother as well, he was in the hospital for months, still recovering.

I'll listen to my MD and not the campfire.

Gold Star

Doc,
You are an honorable man that did the best he could under very trying circumstances. Those criticizing your actions didn't have to live through this mess up close and personal like you did,
Thank you for being here on the Fire and God bless you sir!

Amen

Generally, boomers and silents worship doctors and vaccines; it's some sort of latent Jonas Salk adoration. An extension of that is similar worship for agencies informing on medial issues: WHO, CDC and the like. Unquestioning adoration, because they're Doctors, and they know what's Best for You. I think that is clear from this and other covid threads.

There's a lot of details buried in the hospitalization data. Regarding unvaxxed folks taking it in the shorts moreso than vaxxed...the studies and won't indicate their criteria for vaxxed, and it's known that <2wks after 2nd dose is considered unvaxxed, as are those with only one dose. It's easy to say the unvaxxed are getting hosed when you're lumping a pile of newly vaxxed in with them.

I'm not clear on DocRocket's view of theraputics. I've personally had a part in administering vitamin I horse paste to a half dozen individuals who were heading south and did a sudden about-face the 2nd day in. Doubt that's coincidence.

Among immediate family and inlaws, we have four really poor outcomes out of the 10 of us I presume are vaxxed (I know for sure 4 of us aren't). Cancer recurrence, ALS, heart valve repair, 2x Afib, TBI from two hard falls.

MIL and FIL didn't get it on our counsel, and daily they wonder at the news of poor outcomes for their longtime friends and acquaintances wo have.

We're all witness to multipe crimes here. There's no letting vax cheerleaders off the hook for this one. They are STILL going after the largest control group: our children.

This thread will win Wabi his first Beaver Award for longest thread ever OP’d by him.

It will also win a Beaver for the most words typed by members other than Valsdad.

🦫

PS

Strider1, congratulations on being the briefest of posters on this thread.

Doc you can't fix stupid, if someone didn't take the China flu seriously enough to get medical help it's on them. The part that pizzes me off is the people that sought medical help and were told to go home and take aspirin. I lost a couple of friends to pneumonia in 2010 because they were too damn hard-headed to get treatment till it was too late. If the pharmacy companies would of sold the COVID-19 vaccine as a flu shot, we'd all be better off now.

One thing for sure, The Good Doctor is a physician, and most of us aren't.

And THAT gentlemen... sums up this thread 100%.

THAT... is how the libs play fearful men like a fiddle every single damn time.

On March 23, 1775 Patrick Henry put forward a resolution “to secure our inestimable rights and liberties, from those further violations with which they are threatened (by King George III)"

Is not King Biden seizing your liberties FROM YOU... in that exact same manner TODAY?

"Give me liberty…or give me death!” St. John's Church in Richmond, VA (2401 East Broad Street... if any of you care to visit)... was his fury at the 1775 Continental Congress...

Correct...

Great intelligence in one area... does not equate great intelligence in ALL AREAS.

Quite the opposite actually.

Cutting to the chase...

Did you then... or do you now... believe a vaccine can prevent a virus?

I do not need a long answer...

Yes or No will suffice.

Thanks