Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Reduced loads using 4198

Is there a place on the web where such loads are published by Sierra or similar company?

Curious how far up or down I can go.

For instance I am working on a 260 Remington deer load and I see a 140 with 30 grains would get me 2300 ish fps.

I would like to use a 123 grain sst, wondering if 32 or 35 ish is where I need to be?

Can’t really give an answer for your .260 Rem …..but, I’ve used 4198 (with a filler) for cast bullet loads in 375 AI and .338 Win. But, are loaded pretty lightly….less than 1600 fps. I used the filler to help with burn consistency! memtb

I know it's used in some reduced recoil factory loads too. Somewhere in the 30 to 35 grain range if I recall correctly.

I haven't seen them published but I believe Seafire has provided some loads for 4198. Hopefully he will chime in since I'm interested too.

Some of the IMR data includes 4198 but not for 260 Rem.

Well the 308 and 7mm08 and etc...you'd think if it worked for one it would be fine in all of them...same case

You should consider the ratio of the size of the bottle to the hole in the end. Note how the optimum powders for the 243 are quite different than those for the 358 Winchester.

True. I wasn't engaging my brain.

I don't know much about Gordon's Reloading Tool but I have been playing a little with it. It shows 31 grains giving 2600 fps. More than 31 grains has warnings about pressure.

Hm. Ok

I was at 32 grains. Guess I better back off.

The old Speer Manuals have just what you are looking for...like #6,#7,#8,#9. Every cartridge has a reduced load with a suitable charge, real world powder (frequently 4198) and real world hunting bullets. When in doubt you can google "The Load" by CE Harris.

hodgdon publishes reduced loads for H4895 which i have used for kids many times. However, if you only have 4198 I don't suppose that will help you any.
Phil

Was shooting my 45-70 a bunch and the recoil was starting to make me flinch, i had some 4198, in my powder safe, , i would load a couple of rnds and shoot them of my man cave porch, and i kept reducing powder, until i had a manageable load, very little recoil, then chrno-ed it, it's doing 1380fps, and kills the hell out of pigs. 50 grs. H-4198 is the cat's ass in my 45-70 Rio7

I use H 4895 for reduced loads, didn’t know about 4198.

I want to say I went up as high as 31gr with 110/120gr 7mm-08 loads, but I don't have my data in front of me. It came from Hodgdon's old silhouette handgun data.

I just ordered speer number 8 from Amazon. Hopefully there will be some new info for me in there. They seem to recommend different powders than Hornady and nosler and hodgdon, which I already have

Years ago, in one of the Hodgdon Annual Reloading manuals. There was an article called "The Right Start". It used the IMR 4198 in several cartridges. "Hodgdon's 2009 Annual RELOADING "

I's suggest looking at this:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-156689.html

Watch out. I'm not saying No.8 is for sure the one with the problem, but one of the older Speer manuals had data developed with incorrect calibration of the copper slugs for the pressure gun. As a result some rather hot loads were published.

I wouldn't use any fillers. The small gain in accuracy with light loads is offset by the increased potential for ringing a chamber.

I noticed that too

Yep, that is where I would look first.

Take heed ye pilgrims^^^ Thar be dragons.
Interpolating from a ream of notes and data, 120 ish gr bullet with 4198, 18 gr should put you around 1600 fps, up to 28 grs where you should be maxing out at 2300 very roughly. Keep in mind, this is interpolation, case volume of the .260 is around 53 grs...above the Carcano and the Arisaka and below the Swede. I took into account the short bearing surface of the 123SST...it should be pretty slippery in the bore. My guess is 32 grs was pretty perky.

Hmm. Was looking for more like 2500

Looked up my 7mm-08 data. 31gr of H4198 made 2,550-2,600 with a 120 TTSX in a 20" factory 7mm-08 Rem 700. The manual went up to 32gr. If I was looking to shoot something around 120-123gr in a 260, I'd load a few each at 29, 30, and 31gr. I'd then shoot over the chronograph and keep an eye out for pressure. You should be able to make somewhere around 2,500.

I used to load a bunch of reduced loads in my 270 and 4198 was one of the powders I used along with Unique. 4895 I think is a common one as well that IMR had a list of reduced loads specifically for that powder.

I used loads out of Lyman's cast bullet manual. I think I found copies of it online. Just look up cast loads for the rifle and you should be able to come up with some good suggestions.

No chronograph yet...

I use a reduced cast bullet load for the 416 Rigby with 4198.

I found an eight pounder of 4198 today so I am going to do some experimenting

Well just seeing this... haven't been on the campfire as much as of late.. because I've been busy taking care of all sorts of fix it needs that have popped up around the homestead here...

without it meant to be a point of bragging.... I would gather that I probably load more 4198 in hunting rifles than about anyone else on the campfire.
many think it has no use other than light cast bullet uses....

I look at it another way... here in Oregon, we have Blacktails.... many weigh not much more than the average antelope. I'm of the opinion of I don't need a 500 yd load with a heavy bullet, to kill a 100 to 120 pound blacktail at 75 to 200 yds...

I also work a lot with youth loads for kids, doing so with Boy Scouts as I am a shooting instructor and Merit Badge Counselor with Scouts.

Cast bullet manuals were I got my research started on loads using 4198 ( I prefer IMRs to Hodgdons)....but I've learned to simply them also.

between the 6mm size to the 30 caliber size... most bread and butter cartridges are based on the 308 case or the 30/06 case.

Looking over load data for a host of cartridges in the case load manuals.. I came up with two parameters...

1. 308 based cartridges.... the max load I set at 30 grains of powder for 4198. doesn't matter if its a 243 shooting a 100 grain bullet, to a 308 shooting a 180 to 200 grain bullet... and anything in between for the 260, or 7/08 or the 338 Federal or 358 Win....30 grains max works across the board. I set the minimum ( although one can go even lower) at 20 grains....which works fine if you are shooting at 100 yds or less...or anything in between... I myself either load them with 20 grains, 25 or 30....close enough for government work.

2. 06 based cartridges... you can expand that to 35 grains of 4198, but I usually load those to 30 grains also....

also use 30 grains for the 6.5 x 55, 7 x 57, 8 x 57, 6mm Rem, but that can be worked up to 32.5 grains safely and consistently...

I use no filler and only large rifle primers... no magnum primers are really needed...

I've sent 10s of thousands of these loads thru my rifles... and never had ONE issue...

I just call these 4198 loads the equivalent of 30/30 ranges....most are more.. since you are using spitzer bullets...

as far as the OPs original question about use in the 260 Rem.. I carry that round in several rifles...

I go afield with 30 grains of 4198 ( IMR) and either a 100 grain or 120 grain bullet.. usually a Ballistic tip, but also have used and take deer with the 100 gr SP Hornady, and the 100 grain HP Sierra....the 120 Ballistic tip works so well, never experimented with much else in that bullet weight...
the 129 Hornady is also another excellent choice...

where to zero these loads... I learned this from reading and have set this up as my regimen for decades...

an antelope ( smaller than deer) is 14 inches from Breast bone to back bone regardless of weight on the hoof.
cut that in half and you have a 7 inch window of opportunity at the vitals in the lung area.

a bullet zeroed 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, is usually dead on or close to it at 200 yds and about 3.5 inches low at something around 240 yds..
this is with a spitzer bullet, when leaving the muzzle at 2250 fps...

since 90% of most game is taken at 100 yds, and 95% if taken at 200 yds and under... this more than adequate for hunting deer in the field.

these speeds also work real well, with the good old, been around forever cup and core bullets...

even most kids can shoot them with ease....

if your MV is more than 2250 fps at the muzzle, then you load will be flatter shooting and can stretch your max point blank range out a little further..
but a cup and core bullet will still perform well at these speeds even out to 250 yds just fine...

off a rest, I've even taken game at 300 yds with them....

have had a lot of calls from happy dad's of scouts who have called me when their son killed their first deer with these 4198 loads, and have never heard a complaint about a failure when the deer is shot in the right spot.. and the low recoil level really helps in shot placement.

the success ratio I've seen, this has been a more than effective load regardless of caliber or bullet weight, as long as someone is using a bullet designed to open up with the velocity range of the cartridge at the distances being shot....

The last deer I saw one of my scouts actually shoot his first deer, was in a borrowed 8 x 57 of mine... 30 grains of 4198, with a Speer 170 SMP bullet...once hit the deer did a quick button hook run of less than 20 yds and was down for the count...that was in 2019....rifle was a pre War ( WW2) Mauser made by CZ... CZ 24... 4 power scope on top( Tasco no less)....

I've personally taken a couple of deer with my 6.5 x 55 Mauser, made in 1919, with open sites... 30 grains of 4198 and a 140 and 160 grain bullet...

bank flops when hit and recoil was like a 22.250 or less... courtesy of how good a Mauser stock is designed right for handling recoil....certainly kicked much less than a 30/30....

hope some of this helps.. I carry more 30 grains of 4198 load come deer season than anything else...last deer that I dropped that was a big one, was a 180 pound blacktail, 4 x 4.... 85 grain Speer SP, with a Rem ADL 243.. one shot right thru the heart... bang flop... and I never lost sight picture in the scope, due to low recoil....

30 grs of 4198 is really just a 30/30 equivalent in a different cartridge... from 243 to 358 bore size....


30 grains of 4198 in a 22.250 with a 55 or 60 grain SP is also a good deer slayer with low recoil, but still 250 yd capable with no real Kentucky windage needed...

Interesting stuff seafire. Thanks for sharing your experience. I always keep IMR4198 on hand. Have since the 90's. I haven't used it much, except in reduced recoil loads for the 308w and some 223's, but see the versatility. When I first got my RCBS supreme reloading kit, I saw it a bunch in the Speer load manual and said to myself, that powder is listed for every cartridge. Generally for those reduced loads, but it looked like a powder I should keep on hand. You have some good info regarding its use. Thanks!!

Thanks seafire. Going to start building some loads to play with at the range. Will be a lot more fun to shoot in the bigger cartridges too, since they won't be painful to shoot for longer sittings.

I shot my deer last fall with a 270... 40 grains of h4895, a 130 grain speer bullet at (estimating) 2600 fps. Worked just fine.

I am convinced that you don't need a headache and sore shoulder and deafening muzzle blast and burning 65 grains of powder to kill a 150 pound whitetail.

If you know your distances....

This spring and past winter, I've been using First Alliant Steel and then Blue Dot with the 223 with a 40 grain V Max, with a charge of 11.5 grains of powder. I've been shooing gongs at the range at 300 and 400 yds with those loads pretty consistently. Probably around 1200 to 1300 rounds in the last 5 or 6 months.

Earlier on Friday, I upped the charge to 12 grains of Blue Dot, with a 50 Grain V Max... and was also easily hitting steel gongs at 300 and 400 yds...

300 has actually become a chip shot...

was doing the same things with the 260 Rem few months ago.... 90 Grain Nosler Varmaggedon Bullet with 30 grains of 4198....

that was just 100 rounds total, but there was no problem hitting the 300 and 400 yds gongs pretty consistently at those distances...
did 50 with the 100 grain Ballistic Tips also...

they will drop a blacktail at those distances with no problem....

Spend some time practicing with the powder and a round, it is more than capable once you get your eye trained to shoot it at those distances.

Good information to know in these days of powder shortages. I have some IMR 4198, my powder of choice in the 222.

Yep that's why I am doing it.

Well I got my speer 1970 reloading book today. Not a damn one of the loads is for reduced 4198 loads.

On top of that, there are a whole bunch of N205 loads all thru it that would turn your rifle into a pile of splinters.

Oh well...

Speer 11 has several imr 4198 reduced loads sprinkled throughout. I had recently received some help from Seafire for a 264 win mag my grand son has, and he offered up his usual super duper insight. Speer 11 has some too, for example;

264 Win Mag

IMR 4198

120 gr bullet

21 grs....1760 fps
23 grs....1932

140 gr bullet

23 grs....1731 fps
25 grs....1890

Lots of room to go up in charge if one wanted to do so.

you are looking in the wrong place....

Find yourself, some current or past volumes of pretty much any Cast Bullet Manual... pressures are always kept pretty low on cast bullet loads..
substituting Jacketed bullets for cast bullet loads, you are not pushing the envelope at all... occasionally you may stumble upon a few that might be..
but using a little common sense should keep you safe...

the old IMR brown sheets use to have about every powder that IMR made, for about every rifle cartridge that was pretty commonly in use.
That should show you what maximums should be... but like with any load development.... don't start at the top charge... start lower and work up...

any max load you find using 4198, you can start out at about half the max charge and it should still yield a fairly useable accurate load...

you should be able to find yourself some of the old IMR Brown Sheet load data on line.... and then once again, pick up a couple copies of older Lyman Cast Bullet Manuals....they are pretty readily available... even the latest editions you can pick up a new one at Sportsman's Warehouse.

I've found older ones, I've picked up for a couple of bucks....

Those old brown imr load manuals are valuable. I have one dated 1975-76 and another with NEW EDITION stamped in red on the front from around 1980 (can't find a date). But they list the maximum loads of all imr powders in shotshell, handgun and rifle available during those years.

I am interested in reduced loads for my Winchester 70 in 270W. I have learned much from the info contained in this thread (especially by Seafire, who has a long history of doing this). So, first off, I wish to thank all of you who took the time to provide input. I have copied this entire thread and put it in my reloading notebook. I have both IMR 4198 and H4895. I plan to first try reduced loads, using the Hornady 130 gr SST with these powders. My goal is to achieve a MV=2400 - 2500 fps. My Model 70 rifle has a 20" barrel. I do, however, have 2 questions both concerning the COL of the loaded cartridge:

When using IMR 4198, what COL should I use? I ask this because I understand that reduced loads with IMR 4198 really means reduced velocity - not reduced pressure. The info, relative to this is as follows:
The only reload manual that I can find listing IMR 4198 for the 270 W is Lee's Modern Reloading Manual (2nd Ed), where the "Minimum" COL listed for this powder and generic 130 gr jacketed bullets is 3.250" with recommended loads from 31.9 grs = 2481 fps to 35.5 grs =2660 fps. In Hornady's Reload Manual #9, the COL listed specifically for their 130 gr SST is 3.210", though IMR 4198 is not included in the powders tested. Finally, the COL in my rifle for this bullet just touching the lands = 3.335" (cartridge base to bullet tip). So, given this info, what would be a safe range of COLs? Hornady's COL is .04" shorter than Lee's "Min" COL, though Lee's data is not specifically for the 130 gr SST and Hornady's data does not include IMR 4198.

The last question is COL for H4895, for which I know Hodgdon recommends starting reduced loads at 60% of "maximum" load listed. Hodgdon online data exists (thankfully) for the 130 gr SST using H4895 (COL=3.235"). Lee's 2nd Ed. Manual lists "Minimum" COL = 3.280" for generic 130 gr jacketed bullets using H4895. In this case I "assume" that I should use Hodgdon's online data but how much could I safely vary the COL to achieve optimal seating depth, given that Lee's "Minimum" COL (3.280") is significantly longer that the COL listed in Hodgdon's online data (3.235") or even in Hornady's Manual #9 (3.210"). Once again, the COL of this bullet just touching my rifle's lands = 3.335".

Thanks for any input you may have. I may be over-thinking this but, regarding reloading, I believe that the only stupid questions are the ones you don't ask.

You are way overthinking it.

Start your load development with the bullet as far out as you'd want to try it. Once you've established a safe charge you can work the bullet back shorter as that will lower pressure.

Mathman, Thanks for the response. Yeah, I tend to overthink things. I will use the IMR 4198 data listed in the Lee Manual but is there a point, where working the bullet back shorter will start to increase pressure?

Yes, but you'll probably not get anywhere close to that.

Good. Thank you for taking the time to answer my inquiries.

I'd be looking at a Lyman Cast bullet manual...either Number 4, which is the current one

or the Number 3 which would probably be findable at larger used book stores... I have bought a couple of copies over the year for like $3.00.

the first one just wore out....so I replaced it...

I wouldn't worry about reload manuals not listing a bullet you desire to use.... just be concerned about its weight...

2400 to 2500 fps shouldn't be a hard accomplishment....

I normally simplify this by using a charge of 30 grains of 4198, whether in a 308 sized case or an 06 sized case....

get your MV over a chrony, and on trajectory charts, you can figure out what a point blank range is...

Normally using this, and especially working with kids via Boy Scouts.... set a zero at 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, you should be about right on at 200 yds, and 3.5 inches low at 230 to 240 yds, when using a spitzer bullet... and you don't need the heaviest bullet use.. I use 150 grainers, vs 180s in an 06......its never failed me...

with the above info consider the facts... 90% of all game is taken within a 100 yds... and 95% is taken within 200 yds...

what more do ya need...and recoil is so much lower...

I don't recommend or use reduced 4895 loads... they give too loud of a retort/ kaboom, for what you are using... that intimidates a lot of kids and female shooters...and the noise make them think that load has more recoil.. it really doesn't...

at the same time, I find H4895 loads are finicky for accuracy... I see much tighter groups using IMR 4198 than H 4895...always have..

substituting IMR 4895 for 4895 loads, results are better, more accurate and less retort/ kaboom, is what I have always found..
and that is not just only for myself... but moreso working with kids and some women shooters feeling the same results..

accuracy? accuracy is accuracy... Reduced IMR 4895 loads yield better results than Hodgdon/ ADI loads...

H 4198 is more accurate than H4895, but IMR is more consistent in my book...

Seafire, Thanks for your response. You (and Mathman) have forgotten more than I will probably ever know. I do have H4895 but, based on your advice, I will use IMR 4198 (which I have more of anyway) for reduced loads. Once again, thank you for sharing your knowledge gained by experience.

I will get Lyman's 4th Edition Cast Bullet Manual. It is currently out of stock at the local Sportsman's Warehouse but I'll find a copy.

Another thanks from me, great info. I have a good supply of IMR-4198, so far mostly used in the 45-70 & light bullets in the 223s.

Yes, I do take a peek at reliable net data or manuals before loading. I think it’s in the Marlin forums, bookoo older manuals & data for free downloads.


https://www.marlinowners.com/threads/on-line-free-load-data-and-references.281290/

What about 125 grain bullets in the 308? Max somewhere near 35 gr 4198?

I just did some interpolation of the IMR4198 data in my old, tan IMR powder booklet. Reverse engineering what is shown for 110, 150 and 180 grain bullets suggests a max load for a 125 being just under 37.5 grains. This would have been for eighties vintage powder.

Hodgdon's online data suggests to me that H4198 would be OK there too.

Diclaimer: This is not tested data and I'm not telling you to use this information. What if anything you do is on you.

Well the Remington reduced load is supposedly 36 grains per seafire. So that is in line with what I was thinking. Thanks.

That may have been for the 30-06, not the 308.

Maybe but if you are seeing 37.5 as max, the 36 should be safe and comfortable to shoot

I shot the old IMR booklet max of 35.5 grains under a 150 and it was quite safe in my rifle. Easy bolt lift and extraction.

Thanks