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I'd feel much more safe where I'm at in Idaho or western Montana than in Aussy territory. Those spiders and snakes down under have the worst venom and that's horrific in my mind.

Last year I was riding my motorbike and had an huge mountain lion jump out in front of me and it jumped away in the steep brush scared and surprised. Big cat and it could've nailed me easy but they're are chased with hounds here and know people are dangerous to them. A much better encounter than one with a croc, snake/lizard, or Sydney funnelweb.

One thing that's probably a bigger killer here in N. America is hypothermia. They say that's the big danger for folks or what you hear about most

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I have seen more snakes this year than probably the last 15 combined

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Originally Posted by Theoldpinecricker
I'd feel much more safe where I'm at in Idaho or western Montana than in Aussy territory. Those spiders and snakes down under have the worst venom and that's horrific in my mind.

Last year I was riding my motorbike and had an huge mountain lion jump out in front of me and it jumped away in the steep brush scared and surprised. Big cat and it could've nailed me easy but they're are chased with hounds here and know people are dangerous to them. A much better encounter than one with a croc, snake/lizard, or Sydney funnelweb.

One thing that's probably a bigger killer here in N. America is hypothermia. They say that's the big danger for folks or what you hear about most

I believe gluttony is, no?

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Look and you shall see , wander and you will no doubt stumble into one , there everywhere but mind there own business, six sightings at work this year , there going to pull a whole rock bed apart cause they’ve seen the same small brown snake there three times over the last 3months it’s near the office so there freaking out , snake catcher hasn’t had any luck with that one , had a few moments over the years but you have to be pretty unlucky or stupid to get bit , some can be psycho but it’s not the rule


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The key thing to remember about Australian snakes is that their fangs are actually very small.

When compared with the Gaboon Viper at 2in long fangs, or typical rattlesnakes at a little under that, the Eastern Brown is 1/8in.

They don't need large fangs as the venom is so toxic and their prey is relatively small, frogs, lizards, rats and mice. Even being suspected of receiving a bite (often looks like a scratch), medical treatment is strongly recommended. Often, people don't know until the paralysis and excessive bleeding comes in, and then they die. Time between bite and death is 20 to 50 minutes without treatment (interim treatment greatly prolongs life). Most Australian snakes short fang/high potency venom inject into the Lymphatic system so pressure bandages to slow lymphatic flow are the effective interim treatment until effective treatment with an antivenene. No antivenene = certain death within hours.

Bitten by a Viper like a Rattler or Gaboon, and you know about it quickly from pain and swelling, although luckily interim treatment is easy with bandage and blood flow control means you are unlikely to die before you can get effective treatment with an antivenene, antibiotics, etc. Without treatment tissue damage can be very bad as the venom is injected into the blood layer, and death may take 2 to 3 days.

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Originally Posted by Adamjp
The key thing to remember about Australian snakes is that their fangs are actually very small.

When compared with the Gaboon Viper at 2in long fangs, or typical rattlesnakes at a little under that, the Eastern Brown is 1/8in.

They don't need large fangs as the venom is so toxic and their prey is relatively small, frogs, lizards, rats and mice. Even being suspected of receiving a bite (often looks like a scratch), medical treatment is strongly recommended. Often, people don't know until the paralysis and excessive bleeding comes in, and then they die. Time between bite and death is 20 to 50 minutes without treatment (interim treatment greatly prolongs life). Most Australian snakes short fang/high potency venom inject into the Lymphatic system so pressure bandages to slow lymphatic flow are the effective interim treatment until effective treatment with an antivenene. No antivenene = certain death within hours.

Bitten by a Viper like a Rattler or Gaboon, and you know about it quickly from pain and swelling, although luckily interim treatment is easy with bandage and blood flow control means you are unlikely to die before you can get effective treatment with an antivenene, antibiotics, etc. Without treatment tissue damage can be very bad as the venom is injected into the blood layer, and death may take 2 to 3 days.

I was watching a show last week about a guy that was bitten by a rattler and to my complete surprise I learned something new.

DId you know that the WORST THING you can do when bitten by a venomous snake is to control your blood flow?


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Originally Posted by KillerBee
Originally Posted by Adamjp
...

DId you know that the WORST THING you can do when bitten by a venomous snake is to control your blood flow?

A pressure bandage to restrict lymphatic flow
is also going to restrict blood flow but not
necessarily to problematic level.

Originally Posted by Adamjp
.. as the venom is injected into the blood layer..

Can you be more anatomically specific
as to what you mean by 'blood layer'?


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Hi Starman,

The show I watched with the guy being Bit on the foot, his girlfriend put a tourniquet above his calf just below his knee, which is what I would have done!

A doctor was on the show she said that if you isolate the venom in one area then you experience more problems in a smaller area rather then let the venom travel and disperse through your body.

The girlfriend did the sucking thing on his wound, the doctor also said that was a wives tale and it has no effect. She went on to say that you want to sit still and wait for help if you can and not get your heart rate up.

Disclaimer, I no nothing about snake bites, I would have asked my girlfriend to start sucking immediately and I would have put on a tourniquet immediately.

The show is called "Something Bit Me?


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Pressure bandage, keep calm, keep movement to minimum while getting medical attention ASAP.

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Realistically in all seriousness you are 1 million times more likely to get killed 4x4ing to the spot or cutting a tree off the track so don’t even worry about them , the closest I’ve seen to danger was my wife and I were walking back from the beach along the Darby river in the evening along a walking track, lots of frogs , anyway it was twilight I had my surf rod and rod holder in my hand , my wife stood fair in the middle of a 4 1/2 foot Tiger snake , you definitely don’t want to get bit by one of them , lucky I was watching and as it turned round to bite as it had no other choice , I yelled at the wife and blocked the strike with the rod holder , she immediately got off it and it scurried off as quick as it came , that snake probably would’ve died she put her entire weight on it, but it still just wanted to escape

Last edited by 35sambar; 01/13/23.

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Here’s a Tiger my wife helped get out of her hippy friends mums house 2weeks ago ,doesn’t put mouse bait out cause she doesn’t want to hurt the mice , really old house in the country holes in the floor boards found it in the pantry had at least five mice in it you could see the bumps , this was one angry snake and knew it was game time when confronted
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by 35sambar; 01/13/23.

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KillerB,

In terms of 1st world medical advice regarding
snake bite, it's pretty much across the board that
Tourniquets, incisions and vacuuming are no no.
Even with a pressure bandage it has to be done
correctly, even the 'Pros' don't always get it right.
Some advise not applying such for the risk of
getting it wrong and doing more harm than good.

There are other deciding factors such as what type
of toxin..eg: neurotoxin(elapids) Vs haemotoxin(vipers).
but it's not always that simplistic, for some vipers
can deliver nuerotoxin and some elapids haemotoxin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550186/

Interesting enough, snake venom contains a catalyst enzyme
Phospholipase A2, which is naturally in the human body
playing an important role in immune system inflammation response
where it is responsible for cell membrane degradation.


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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by Adamjp
.. as the venom is injected into the blood layer..

Can you be more anatomically specific
as to what you mean by 'blood layer'?

The layer of muscle found below the skin where blood readily flows. Vipers have fangs large enough to puncture through the dermis, the lymphatic and into muscle.

As Starman points out, pressure bandages on bite site and up the limb (then back down) and immobilisation for neurotoxins (most Australian snakes) to reduce or stop flow within the lymphatic system.

Brown Snake bite site
https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/fc800bcc46fe5524137e7e77450fce4b

Treatment for neurotoxin (Australian) snakes




Covering bandages and control of blood flow within the body (not cessation through a torniquet) for hemotoxins from Vipers like Rattlesnakes. A hemotoxin bite will swell quickly and generate significant pain sensations - the swelling prevents pressure bandages from being as effective on the bite site as you may need to remove them as the bite site swells. In this case a pressure bandage to control blood flow upstream through the limb is worthy (but NOT a torniquet). Pressure and immobilisation are again the trick, but not necessarily the bite site due to swelling.

Rattlesnake bite site
https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxn...20/405/TN-Snake-Bite-2.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

Treatment for Hemotoxin (Viper) snakes



Originally Posted by Starman
...There are other deciding factors such as what type
of toxin..eg: neurotoxin(elapids) Vs haemotoxin(vipers).
but it's not always that simplistic, for some vipers
can deliver neurotoxin and some elapids haemotoxin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550186/ ...

The types of venom work very differently and whilst both are bad, neurotoxins will kill faster with little other visible damage whilst hemotoxins do more visible damage through localised necrosis, whilst killing slowly.

Brown snakes make no noise and the strike is laser fast with little or no real feeling, less than a blackberry sting.

Rattlesnakes let you know you are too close, are fast and apparently there is a distinct 'tap' (probably because of the larger puncture).

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Eastern Brown is responsible for most bites in Aus.
It has one of the most potent snake toxins on the planet
comprising of Neurotoxins (presynaptic and postsynaptic)
and powerful Procoagulants.
Most bites are 'dry bites' but in cases of severe envenomation ,
clinical effects are likely to be Coagulopathy/defribination
and Renal impairment or failure, with much less likelyhood
of respiratory failure. The venom is not known for myotoxic
or necrotoxic mechanism of action.

Data on severe envenomation cases:
5% have cardiac arrest(secondary cardiotoxicity)
10% Thrombotic microangiopathy(TMA)
(a pathophysiological condition that majorly
contributes to renal failure)
[sources; ASP-14, ASP-18, QJM 2009, IJM 2007,
CSL 2012]


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Originally Posted by Adamjp
Originally Posted by Starman
Can you be more anatomically specific
as to what you mean by 'blood layer'?

The layer of muscle found below the skin where blood readily flows.
Vipers have fangs large enough to puncture through the dermis,
the lymphatic and into muscle.

Blood also readily flows through dermis capillaries and arterioles & venules
of the cutaneous vascular plexus, so why would you not count that in your
termed 'blood layer'?

At rest, BFR in skin and muscle is in the range
of 1-3 ml/100g/min. and 1-4 ml/100g/min.
respectively.


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Originally Posted by Starman
Eastern Brown is responsible for most bites in Aus.
It has one of the most potent snake toxins on the planet
comprising of Neurotoxins (presynaptic and postsynaptic)
and powerful Procoagulants.
Most bites are 'dry bites' but in cases of severe envenomation ,
clinical effects are likely to be Coagulopathy/defribination
and Renal impairment or failure, with much less likelyhood
of respiratory failure. The venom is not known for myotoxic
or necrotoxic mechanism of action.

Data on severe envenomation cases:
5% have cardiac arrest(secondary cardiotoxicity)
10% Thrombotic microangiopathy(TMA)
(a pathophysiological condition that majorly
contributes to renal failure)
[sources; ASP-14, ASP-18, QJM 2009, IJM 2007,
CSL 2012]

Lifted pretty near wholesale from https://litfl.com/brown-snake-toxinology/ - even down to the footnotes.

The king of Google, pretending to expertise he doesn't have, by stealing content he actually only half understands (and that is being generous).

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Wow the fact I provided footnotes indicates
it's not my work. But you had to come and state
the obvious..a gotcha fail.


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Originally Posted by Starman
Wow the fact I provided footnotes indicates
it's not my work. But you had to come and state
the obvious..a gotcha fail.

You "provided" footnotes which you clearly hadn't read. Moreover, you clearly don't know how to footnote.

A case in point: the footnote you cite as "ASP-18", is a reference to a paper which goes to a part of the article you hadn't stolen. The paper is properly cited as:

A randomized controlled trial of fresh frozen plasma for treating venom induced consumption coagulopathy in cases of Australian snakebite (ASP-18). Isbister, G.K., et al. Journal of Thrombosis and Haemostasis, 11(7), 1310-1318.

It has nothing to do with any of what you said lifted, unattributed, from someone else's work. This would have been obvious if you knew what you were talking about.

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Folks here like myself have suggested pressure bandages without citing
medical sources for such potentially life saving advice...why haven't you
taken them to task on that?...seems like you have a personal axe to grind
instead of contributing something positive to the thread.

Originally Posted by dan_oz
. The paper is properly cited as:

A randomized controlled trial of fresh frozen plasma for treating venom induced consumption coagulopathy in cases of Australian snakebite (ASP-18). Isbister, G.K., et al. Journal of Thrombosis and Haemostasis, 11(7), 1310-1318.
.

I abbreviated sources simply to show it wasn't my
work..Im happy with that , but you can nit pick
like a useless bitter old whore if you want...good luck.


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Originally Posted by Starman
Folks here like myself have suggested pressure bandages without citing
medical sources for such advice...why haven't you taken them to task on that?
...seems like you have a personal axe to grind instead of contributing something
positive to the thread.

I'm taking you to task because you pretend to knowledge you don't have, you pretend to be an expert when clearly you are not, and you shamelessly steal from other people's work, pretending that this is your own knowledge. It isn't the first time for you. You are a serial bullsh!t artist.

It has nothing to do with mentioning pressure bandages.

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