Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Fast vs Slow (inside deer) bullet debate??

The result of hydrostatic shock that I believe is relevant to killing, is the physical destruction of tissue near the bullets path. As in a fist-sized hole, where the previous contents of that hole are no more, blown away, totally vaporized (as in the big hole in the zebra's heart). All caused by a bullet of expanded diameter of maybe .75".

I'm not a big proponent of, or salesman for, the idea of a shock wave causing catastrophic effects at a great distance from the bullet path, although I can't argue against the likelihood of some level of temporary nerve interruption.

Fascinating thread. One that makes 24hour so usefull and thought-provoking. FWIW, I've killed deer with a shotgun slug and .35 Whelen on the slow end and a .270 and .30-06 on the fast end and in my experience, there is absolutely no question that a faster bullet will put a deer down faster. I liked MontanaMarine's comment about the huge holes we sometimes find in animals we shoot being much bigger than the expanded bullet. I once shot a pronghorn with a 130 BT out of a .270 Win. at about 40 yards. The exit was literally as big as my fist and I'm quite certain that the bullet didn't expand that much!

First off never any flames from me i learn an immense amount fromt he fire and would never put another guy down for his ideas. I agree we all are hinting around the same idea but seems to disagree as to what to call it or its potential importance in killing game quickly.

periscope, i absolutely cannot explain it except maybe the actual spot of impact on your deer or the path the energy travelled for whatever reason, and until yesterday i had never seen it.

Yesterday AM I watched a 2x2 blacktail buck (probably 120#'s ish) at about 100 yds take a 139 gr hornady interlock at 3480fps to the lungs compliments of a 7 STW. That damn deer looked at us at ther shot and sood there for about 3-5 seconds and took off downhill for about 85-100 yds and never once did he flinch or act hit then just when my buddy was set to shoot again the deer just flat fell dead and never twitched again. When we got to him the bullet had hit him low (1/3 up the shoulder crease)in the lungs and blew the bottom of both clean to jello and the exit was about the size of a large grapefruit. The deer probably died within 5 secnds of the first round but he never acted hit not one iota. This deers insides were flat FUBAR and he looked at us liked craig missed and i would have thought he did but i saw the bullet hit......That is the first time i have ever seen it happen.

I have been thinking about this thread and talked to several friends who hunt alot and are very into bullet performance like myself. in talikg about it in the last few days and the conclusion i come to is thus:

I am a firm, believer in hydrostatic probably because i tend to opt to place my shot higher then most when shooting broadside animals. I am a consistent 2/3 - 3/4 of the way up the shoulder crease and most often thats where the bullet goes. In thinking of the animals i have killed like this almost all have had severe wound channel damage around the spinal area if not in fact severing the spine. This would explain my beliefe of the quickest kills being CNS based and why i shoot game the way i do. This COULD also explain animals absolutely dropping to high shoulder and neck shots where no appreciable bone is struck, as all of these impart so much energy immense energy very close to the CNS that is absolutely devasates it.

again just a thought of why i think the way i do and i welcome any insight you all have on it

After talking with some engineers, I think we hunters have the nomenclature wrong, but the thought process down.

"Shock Wave", to an engineer, has a definite meaning, that a bullet meeting flesh can't accomplish. But it's all semantics at best.

MallardAddict: Yep, you experienced the EXACT same phenomana that I did. My deer was hit lower in the lungs area and ran about 150 yards after taking a massive hit to the chest with a 150 grain pointed soft-point that (I believe was driven too fast and opened up too quickly) In any event, the bullet DID completely penetrate resulting in a fist sized hole on the other side. He ran over a football field in length before dropping dead.

Than last year I shot a very large doe. I was aiming for just behind the shoulder but instaead she was shot just forward of the shoulder. The deer went straight down. Upon futher review it was obvious. The entrance hole was .264 caliber and the exit hole about the same diameter. Obviously, she had been neck shot.

It concerned me that the 140 grn Nosler partition had not opened up much at all...but there was no question that the deer had died instantly. The response to being shot was that of a wrecking ball.

Go figure, huh?

it is indeed weird how animals react to the shot, I seen deer shot by others (was to there for the shot) that they said ran 100-300 yds before piling up that had massive damage to the heart lungs area, yet have seen some with very minmal meat and vital damage that acted electrocuted just flopped right over.

I tend to subscribe the the nosler theory, i am okay with losing some of the front of the bullet (secondary fragmentation) and having the rear drive through. I have never had a partiton make a huge hole going out unless it struck a rib and a longish shot (one mulie buck at a lazered 348 yds with a 130 NP from a 270 2900 fps @ muzzle), tend to be about golfball sized exits with good internal damage and minimal meat damage.

I used the 125 np in my 264, 150 np in both my 300 wsm and my 7 RUM and 210 partitons in my .338

I think that for deer sized game....having a bullet that expands rapidly (yet still penetrates completley) is the key.

The NP really is not required unless you are going after tough game or using a round that drives a bullet an an excessive velocity.

It is interesting how they will run sometimes and sometimes drop right there with what seems to be identical shots. I normally try to take out the lungs because, as a previous poster said, they will die, sometimes right there, and if not there is normally a good blood trail.

Anyhow, I read a theory not too long ago, can't remember where. The gist of it was that if a deer runs or not (on a lung shot) is to some extent dictated by whether it had exhaled or inhaled, or was in the process of doing one or the other when the bullet did it's thing. I'm not a man of science, but it does ring true on some level. If somebody can remember where I might have read this it may provide some level of insight.

Nice to be here btw. I've lurked for a good while now. Good discourse here.