Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats SA 9.3?

Anyone neck up a 358 AI to 9.3? Looking for a 9.3 for a short action using a standard bolt face.

You could do it off the 308 case but they did it years ago in the form of the 358 win. Why not just use the x62? Options abound.

They do have a 9.3x57mm.. Works pretty nicely, just as the 358 Win and similar.

I guess it isn't a true Short Action round depending on what rifle you wanna chamber it in.

There have been some 35-284's built in the past and I can't see where it would be hard to go up another .006.

I want to thank everyone who replied.

Here is some more information on why I was looking for a SA 9.3. I currently have two 9.3x62's right now which has caused me to accumulate about 1000 assorted bullets in .366 caliber. I have a switch barrel built on a Kelbly Atlas short action with an extended Wyatt's mag box that gives me about 2.995" of usable length. This rifle is currently chambered in 338 Federal and I was thinking I would like to add a second barrel that might use my abundance of 9.3 bullets.

I am familiar with the 9.5x57 and it looks like if I keep it to the lighter bullets from 250 and lighter that the OAL should work through the extended mag box. I have a bunch of 232 gr Norma Oryx and Vulkans that should work.

Does anyone know if a 9.5x57 would work through that action with the Wyatts box?

Probably. The x57 is a good woods round.

Don't hold me to it, but if you have 2.995" of magazine you'll be way more than fine with the 9.3x57. I don't have my load book in front of me, but most of the 232-286 grain bullets are fairly blunt, so OAL isn't a big deal in this one.

The 9.3x57 Mauser requires more than 3.0” as the COAL is 3.23”. However the 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer has a COAL of 2.94”, which may work with the Wyatt magazine.

I might add that the 9.5x57 MS is obviously a .375” bore in lieu of your desired .366”.

The 9.5x57 is one that is in the running. Always wanted a nice 375 caliber rifle, although I would much prefer it in a 1910 MS full stock version.

9.3 Creedmoor.

If it’s a .375 you want the easy button is the 375 Raptor. It’s been around for a couple years, there’s brass and load data out there. Just google it and read on. It has really good ballistics for a 308 WCF parent case. Designed for AR-10 platforms, however it works great in turn bolts and BLR 81s, with short barrels.

You trying to start a riot?

Might be a contender for new gayest round. 9.3 LGBTQ

there's also the wildcat 9.3 Barsness-Sisk--which is the .350 Remington case necked up. Charlie Sisk and I came up with it in 2004, partly because Charlie had discovered the .350 case fed perfectly from the factory magazines for the then-new short, belteless magnums like the .300 WSM and 7mm SAUM. In fact it often fed even better than the beltless rounds.

I checked the powder capacity on the .350 case, and it turned out to be just about the same as the 9.3x62. PT&G built the reamer, and Redding made dies. I had him build mine on a short-magnum stainless Remington 700 action, original a factory rifle in 7mm SAUM. He built his on a M70 Winchester action, originally a .300 WSM.

Turned out the round did duplicate 9.3x62 ballistics when loaded to approximately .30-06 pressures, around 2450 with 286s and 2650 with 250s. We took a bunch of big game with them over the next few years, from deer to an Alaskan grizzly and water buffalo.

Charlie has built some for his customers, if I recall correctly around 30 the last time I asked him. It's a VERY easy wildcat to form, in fact you can neck up .350 brass just by seating a 250-grain Nosler AccuBond....

Revolutionary

The really easy button is 9.3x57mm. Brass, ammo and bullets are all available. Load data as well. Impressive ballistics from a moderate pressure round. The bullets designed for this bore diameter need a certain speed to expand well. I wouldn't try these generally tougher bullets in a lesser round than x57 if keeping standard bolt face

A little different but maybe the 375 Raptor

We are doing a 9,3 with the same powders as the Raptor... and a long throat.

93Jimbo will be the name... I'll put up details as we proceed.

185 gr. Lapua bullets may get to 3,000 FPS (in theory)... but it is all theory for now.

We will also be testing 232 gr. Normas.

The 375 Raptor sure sounds interesting. A 270gr Speer at 2350fps is impressive from the 308 case. That would give a 9.3x57mm mauser pause for concern. A 9.3x51 should be equally impressive if the case has minimal taper and pressures are up there. Also enjoyed the video of the 300gr Sierra Gamekings at 2250fps.

Having played with a few... I know this to be accurate...

.375 SOCOM is identical to .358 Winchester (so identical... same powder, same powder charge, same bullet weight and only 10 FPS different.

.375 Raptor is in the same kinda way equal to 35 Whelen (Speed and energy wise). Google for better details.

The Raptor does sound pretty interesting. One question I have is do you think it will feed ok from a staggered BDL style mag box? On their website I see mention of center feed detachable mags but cant find any information on feeding from a staggered BDL style magazine set up.

I have a 375 SOCOM in an AR platform and it shoots the Wilson Combat Speer 235 grain load under 1 MOA. This is the gun I carry when I go out Predator calling for bears. I haven't had any luck but I still try every year.

I have a 35 Whelen loaded with a 200gr barnes TTSX at 2900fps. The factory Remington 1:16" twist limits this round to about 250grs. Thus the 9.3's start basically where the 35's stop with some overlap at around 250grs. It's an interesting comparison between a 375 Raptor and a 35 Whelen, but they're very different cartridges. The 375 Raptor reminds me of a scaled up 35 Remington and loaded to modern pressures, which is a very good idea. I think a 375 Raptor in a Remington760 would be another great idea.

Tony (Tromix) allowed me to buy a .375 reamer years ago (it is a patented round)... we built lots of guns (nothing he sold or was willing to make... i.e. why he let me buy the reamer).

I also did a bunch of .358W stuff (rented reamer).

Then I fell in love with 9,3m...

THEN... Chris and the boys discovered Arne's .375 Raptor... they went in big time (bought the reamer et al). Data is super impressive... like 10 on 10 @ 400 yards against 8" round steel. They pushed the data really hard and thus I made the 35 Whelen comparison.

I did not partake, because it was "between" what I already had.

As for feeding in a bolt gun... I forget the mag (ACS maybe... or maybe these guys (https://hsprecision.com/product/remington-700-detachable-magazine-conversion-kits/)... I do know it was not Magpul.

If I get a chance I will ask. He may share knowledge... no promises.

He is all in on the Zeus Terminus stuff now... OCD about it actually.

I am less complicated... 700s and AR-10s... But a Savage 99 in .375R or 93Jimbo would be a blast (doubtful).

Missed the BDL part... yes... it should feed fine... my 358Ws feed perfect (I built two)... never had a problem.

The Raptor shines because of the powder... 10x is really odd... but it shines with the Raptor.

FYI... there is some "Hot weather sensitive" cautions.

Sounds like you guys are doing some great work. The comparison of the Raptor to the Whelen is at least reasonable when bringing something unknown to light. The whole purpose of the Raptor is to deliver similar ballistics from a shorter SA platform which is a very worthwhile endeavor. I very recently picked up a 9.3x57mm Mauser and haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but the ballistics are nearly identical, but again, the Raptor does it from a SA. The option to go semiautomatic is very cool. All I can say is keep it up and keep sharing the developments here

Thank you kind Sir...

I am hopeful that the 93Jimbo (named after a GREAT FRIEND that passed last Thanksgiving) will surpass the .375 Raptor (which I highly respect... i.e. Arne is BRILLIANT).

I am hoping to proof out the Most Powerful .473 (.308 parent) cartridge ever devised. 500 yard on elk... kinda thing.

We will be making reamers and dies... I already have 2,000 bullets (Lapua and Norma)... we will use 358W Starline brass.

The reamers will be available to anyone (no surcharge) if we succeed.

Jimbo was THAT GREAT of a man... and friend.

Only if it's a straight re-bore on a 6.5CM.

If so, I just might have to join you.

That's quite the tribuite. I'll try to follow along.

That would be the easy route to a short action 9.3!

93Jimbo still in process...

I still think we need a lower shoulder and maybe 40 degree.

As it stands now... .358W brass necked out to .366 with 185 grain Lapua.

Trim at 2.000" (may shorten that... not sure yet) hits the cannelure well in the 185s.

As we do 232 gr Normas the extra neck may become critical. I hate to lose the case volume... it is a balance.

The long throat is where we will get the speed.

93Jimbo...



We will be having reamers fabricated in January...

Dedicated to James Collyer... Jimbo.

Great man... Great friend to many... passed a year ago.

Thus is born the 93Jimbo (.366 x 51)

This will be the most powerful .308 based (parent) cartridge ever devised. Builds and load development will take about 6 months... Stay tuned...

93Jimbo is going to be a real MONSTER!

This is a ZERO PROFIT project...

Any money made by accident will go to Jim's widow. Donations as well...

If successful... reamers will be available to anyone that want them at cost... BUT the 93Jimbo name cannot ever change. (i.e. no 93 Creedmoor bullchit).

Looking good! Keep us posted.

Just curious, but how would the 93Jimbo be more powerful than the 375 Raptor that is also based on the 308 case? Is the 93J somehow blown out and improved with a sharper shoulder? The ballistics of the Raptor are very impressive and would be tough to beat without any modifications to the parent case

When I was really bored I had a 375-358 checked to see if there was ample shoulder and it should work just fine. My judgement caught up with my boredom and ended the inquiry.

So the .366 will work. Whether it is worthwhile is a different issue.

Truly a labor of love and of deep respect. I can’t fathom how honored your friend would be to know that you guys have gone to such great lengths, not to mention detail and time, creating a fantastic round in his honor.

I wish you great success and I’ll be following closely since I have a AR-10 upper and lower needing something inspired….

We have slightly more case volume... We are using lighter bullets (185 Lapua) and possibly turn some others as well... better BCs

We will be using Borerider style throat geometry (think Weatherby).

Faster speeds will tweek energy upwards.

Friends are helping fill in the gaps of my ignorance (which is plenty)... i.e. kinda like the 30-06 Serengeti bore-rider concept hits .300WM levels.

Jump does not effect accuracy in medium and big bore like it does on smaller bores (based on my experiences)... we are pushing that idea VERY HARD.

I respect the question you asked... I have asked of myself just that many times.

I have huge respect for Arne and his 375 Raptor (less for the 45 Raptor... no hard feelings, but I just hate case mouth stuff personally... shoulders or belts ONLY for me)...

To repeat... the .375 Raptor is amazing (we have tons of experience with them)... Huge respect.

The 93Jimbo will hopefully be a bit more...

In a nutshell...

The long throat concept of Weatherby will marry the faster powder revelations of Arne and the innate efficiency of .366s.

In the end... .358W may also gain some ideas/data also.

I believe that the 9.3J is barking up the right tree considering the bullets that are available. Bullets for the. 375 either tend to be too soft (375 win levels), or too tough (made for the H&H). 9.3J performance splits the difference between 9.3x57mm, and 9.3x62, except fit a short action and semi A platforms thus bullets are already taylor made. The 286gr PPU projectiles are soft enough to expand on deer at x57 levels yet hold together in tougher assignments. Bullets in this diameter tend to be readily available. Not many in NA use this diameter yet most of the major manufacturers are producing components and I've seen they're the ones in stock. Go figure

Smart man recognizing the bullet construction dilemma...

As well as availability...

Had lots of poor performance with 270 grain bullets with the .375 Raptor. Zero expansion.

...and the Sierra 2900s (200s) were more of a .375 SOCOM bullet They work in the Raptor but not ideal... also kinda scarce to find reliability.

I am hopeful of the Lapua G574s in .366 (have 1k on hand to play with)

https://www.lapua.com/product/93-mm-open-tip-bullet-g574-120-g-185-gr/

and the Norma 232s (have 1k on hand to play with)

https://www.norma-ammunition.com/en...-fmj/norma-fmj-93mm-366-232gr---20693061

https://www.norma-ammunition.com/en...n/norma-vulkan-93mm-366-232gr---20693051

https://www.norma-ammunition.com/en...ryx/norma-oryx-93mm-366-232gr---20693071

Manson is making the reamer... if anyone wants to buy one and run parallel with us... drop me a PM. Will share data, gauges, throater, twists et al.

Otherwise... more info to follow...

ONLY ONE RULE... the name of what we do remains "93Jimbo"... That is important to me and Jim's family/widow.

there is another way to boost velocity and still have the bullet close to the rifling for accuracy

The +P stepped rifling does work to lower initial pressure spikes & allows you to work up to higher velocity as you bring the pressure up

Added a throater to the order I made yesterday for just that reason. Going to do 1:12 and 1:16 barrels as tests... start with a 28" blank and cut down as a test also. Work out the nodes kinda thing.

The .308 case, no matter how much you "improve" it does not hold enough powder to get heavy 9.3 bullets such as 286 grains, going fast enough. You are limited to about 50 grains of powder. Once you go to a decent weight 9.3 bullet, you need to go to a slower powder such as H4350, and the .308 case improved will not hold enough of the larger volumes of slow powder. If you run the improved .308 case at high pressures, the primer pockets are too loose after about 3 firings. If you run light bullets in a 9.3, they don't have enough sectional density for anything large. And the more you "improve" the .308 case, the more you stuff-up its good feeding.

So... in your opinion...

Throwing a 175 grain bullet with a poor SD at 2,900 FPS... using a fast powder such as AA 1680... is not a reasonable proposition?

There are better options. If you are interested in the larger bore sizes such as 9.3, .375 then you need a case that's big enough to drive reasonable weight projectiles in those bore sizes at a reasonable velocity. Being restricted to light projectiles because of case size means that you are also restricting the size of the game and the distances that you can shoot them at. In which case, you're better off going down in bore size and using a bullet with a better sectional density. The 9.3 built its reputation on bullets such as 286 grains and a case size that holds around 15 more grains of powder than a .308 case.

This 9.3Jimbo is similar to 9.3x57mm Mauser, which is a similar situation to the 7x57 Mauser/7mm-08 Remington. However, like you, when pushing these heavy for caliber bullets, slightly more case capacity would be nice. Like a Remington SAUM necked up?

No interest in that on this project... I am working with the standard AR-10 platform with standard SR-25 mags.

If I want to shoot a bolt gun I have plenty of them in 9,3x62m and up. Hell, I even have an AR-10 and a bolt in .458 Lott.

This is about max performance from a .366 x 51 case pushing powder burn rates and then bore-riding to mitigate excessive pressure.

We have 5 years of real world experience with the .375 Raptor which plain and simple works (i.e. 175 grain bullet with a poor SD at 2,900 FPS... using a fast powder such as AA 1680)... The 93Jimbo is a push from that platform because:

A) Lighter metric medium bullets are available...

B) We understand faster (unconventional powders) better than most... and long throating.

You really need at least the .350 Rem Mag in case capacity, although the 300 RCM case necked up or 30-06 improved case necked up should do it. The SAUM and WSM cases will also do it, but you lose magazine capacity which do don't really want to do on anything dangerous or big (because you may be paying a lot to shoot the animal) and you have to be careful of feeding issues with those two cases. The WSM cases may also be a bit too long in many short actions.

NO... You do not!!!

Read the data... understand powder burn rates...

https://www.375raptor.com/load-data/


Not even close... The 375 Raptor beats the 9,3 x 57 by 12%+ and that is before the long throating which I expect to add another 12%... then regain the BCs of a .366 over the inferior .375

Norma data on 9,3x57



.375 Raptor data

Ok..which is why I said it compares to the 7x57mm (medium action)/7mm-08 (short action) analogy..loosely. and the 7mm-08 Remington is loaded hotter than the 7x57 Mauser so it usually beats it in performance

The 9.3x57mm Mauser is loaded to very mild pressure. I think around 44,000 cup if that. So the 9.3J should be able to better it just as the 7mm-08 does the x57. I'd prefer the 286gr going 2050fps myself.. but the 232gr at a reasonable speed would be nice too..

If I can get a 350 grain .375 projectile going 2300 fps from a .308 case at normal pressures using temperature stable powders or a 286 grain 9.3 projectile travelling slightly faster from a .308 case, then I want to be the first to hunt Cape Buffalo with it.

It has never been my intention to shoot 350 grain heavies in the 93Jimbo...

Arne did in his .375 Raptor... and probably could have gotten to 2,100 FPS with long throating and a 22" barrel.



We did 270s in the Raptor and had great accuracy to 400 yards, but horrid expansion. Mostly because ALL .375 bullets are for the H&H or RUM type guns. Or the very slow .375W guns. Virtually nothing in the middle range except Sierra 2900s.

This is where the Lapua 185 .366s and the Norma 232s will theoretically shine... AND will expand at 2,900+ FPS.

I may try some 250s also and possible 286s, but not as part of the development phase.

AR-10s are not legal in Africa and a SA 9,3 would never be a caliber I would take there to hunt DG. Don't be obtuse. Reread the whole thread before commenting again.

Jimbo...

I'd say the best the 93Jimbo would do with 286gr projectiles is 2100 fps, and perhaps 2,200 fps with newer optimized powders. CFE223 might be a bit slow but worth a shot. I don't have any experience with 2000-MR, but these are the types of powders to try. IMR-8208 XBR would be good as well as Ramshot TAC and Exterminator.

Been wanting to do a 9.3x51 for a long time.

Just got off the phone with Ray at Manson 15 minutes ago...

If you want to order a reamer/throater... drop me a PM. Only rule... Name has to remain 93Jimbo...

9.3 x 51 sounds good, and most people would probably work out that it is a 9.3 on the .308 case. 93Jimbo sounds a bit....retarded.

It's clear you didn't read through the entire thread before posting.

I have a friend who wanted a 9.3-08 so he had a reamer made and we put a barrel on a Sako rifle. He likes it a lot. Cost on the dies was a bit high, but not extremely. He has the reamer and the dies, but has said he may have been better off to buy 2 reamers, one for a die and one for the chamber. As it is now, we can do chambers, but not make sizing dies.

It's a fact of life that all of us pass away at some point in time. People who have had no relationship to the deceased or if the deceased's contribution to society was not considered a great deal more than the ordinary, aren't going to feel the same degree of sentimentality towards that person as those who were close to them. Therefore, naming something after them really needs to sound good without having to resort to an explanation of why it is named that way.

The 9.3J can be considered parallel developments with the 243 Winchester, 260 Remington, 7mm-08 Rem, 338 Federal and 358 Winchester. All based on the 308 Winchester parent case which in all cases resulted in a very marketable product. I'd hate to see this fine product limited somewhat by sentimentality, so the point being made is valid. Yes we can do our research into who exactly formed the first 308 Winchester case, but they conceded the honor of the name to the company with the power that could make it public on a grand scale. There is a reason why the technical team shouldn't also do the marketing. Ultimately the name will go to the company who picks this up and goes into production with it.

Got the die thing figured out... stay tuned... Easy Peasy solution...

I looked at a few of your other posts... and consider you far to stupid to warrant validity.

You are a troll/sockpuppet for sure.

Which troll/sockpuppet? No one cares... AND NO ONE will ever build a cartridge in your honor.

I do not care about your opinion... GET THE MEMO. You have also been wrong on every single comment you have repeatedly made... except grasping the viability of .366 bullets.

The .308W came from the .30-06 which came from the Patrone 88. Debate that in another thread if you insist.

I fully expect Wilson Combat or some Creedmoor group to claim this idea for money... or not...

I will dog the chit out of them... just because.

None it really matters... I am doing what I do because I want to and can. Zero other reason.

If that is not enough logic... you and Riflehunter go build your own chit.

If you don’t care about other member's perspectives, whether or not you agree with them, why do you post? Just build your stuff and go use it. As noted earlier this isn't the first 9.3x51 that's been built. And believe me. I'm happy to leave this discussion

We're giving you valuable feedback. I'm sure no one wants you to get so upset. There is no need to be so defensive simply because we suggest that the name of your wildcat cartridge sounds retarded and also that while you highlight how this cartridge performs with very light for caliber projectiles, you fail to be upfront regarding its poor performance with medium to heavy projectiles. The reason for its poor performance with heavy projectiles is simple...the case isn't large enough to hold the larger quantities of slow burning powder. Just be a little more objective about things such as its name and its performance with heavy projectiles.

However affectionate he is for Jimbo that same affection is not extended to campfire members. Can you imagine walking into Wilson Combat with a cartridge name like Jimbo? You will first be shown the door, and then everyone will sit around for a good knee slapping belly aching laugh

It's good that he posted his ideas and his 9.3 variation on the campfire. However, he needs to be a bit more open to constructive criticism. I just hope his enthusiasm isn't too dampened, but that he takes on board some of the comments.

Agreed. It's a worthy endeavor. I think this cartridge has tremendous potential. I think the American shooting Republic is just waking up to this diameter. I'd like to see it succeed, but clearly not everyone is on board with this.

You two baffons blather on about heavy bullets and slow powder. Call it constructive? Call it valuable?

Hunting Cape Buffalo with an AR-10 short action...

What possible help is that? Seriously?

You tell me Bill Wilson will slam the door in my face... Fugg Wilson Combat and the BULLCHIT they pulled on the .458 SOCOM.

This project has absolutely nothing to do with money... not sure if you broke dick old FUDDs get that or not...

If you have any real world experience with .375 SOCOM, .375 Raptor, Fast Powders (magnum pistol stuff in rifles)... +P throating than speak up.

FANTASTIC!

Thanks...

Take the suckpuppet idiot with ya...

Thanks again!

He says he's not interested in the money, yet calls himself Cash Is King, he talks about others as "broke dicks". I just hope his intentions towards Jame's widow are entirely honorable. They probably are, but you never know for sure. I do see the possibility of a series of cartridges based on his naming convention. We already have: Special Purpose Cartridge, Blackout, Socom, HAM'R which are all great names. I suggest besides the 9.3 Jimbo, neck it up to .400 and call it the Jumbo, neck it up and then down to .308 and call it the Placebo, down to 6.5 and call it the Gaybo, down to 6mm and call it the Dumbo.

This is the 4th time you have edited your post...

Now fugg off sockpuppet...

Joke, woke fool...

If you're going to do a 9.3 on the .308 case call it a 9.3x51. That sounds good. If you call it a 93 Jimbo everyone will think it sounds stupid and your rifle will be worth next to nothing, as nobody will want to buy it with it chambered in a cartridge with such a dumb name.

Just finalized the Throater design... and it is in process. Quite atypical I reckon.

Without the Throater... the 93Jimbo won't be anything all that special.

I also just ordered every Wilson barrel (1:14.2) that John has... (Ragged Hole).

Plugging away...

It will be "special" if you call it 93Jimbo. LOL

It never fails .....

There's always some schitbag gleefully jumping all over someone who wants to share a wildcat of their own design



My question is .. What makes y'all so frkn butthurt ?

Did your mothers find new boyfriends and won't give you some anymore ?

SwampWitch, let's see whether you add a "93Jimbo" to your collection of "bear-killin' " wildcats. Weren't you going to supply some pictures of bears you shot, but didn't?

"Yawn"

Not hard to tell who's coksuckitt you are, similar diatribe, especially when you get butthurt and forget your uber secrecy

Retard .....



as for calling me out on hunting pics & wildcats .....

show me yours & I'll show you mine ... let's see all the wildcats you have created and shot game with, put up or shut up, Idiot



Hint... you can always click on my handle and find some pics

It ain't me that called you out on hunting pictures after you were mouthing off about shooting bears at long distance with your wildcats. Now slither back down to the bottom of the swamp you bottom-dwelling low form of life.

The last 1:14.2" twist Wilson barrels in America (that I know of at least) arrived today...

EIGHT 93Jimbo guns to make...



Stay tuned...

I have built several 9.3x308. I will try to find the pressure testing data I have. Might take me a bit to find it.
Charlie

Thanks Charlie...

Any help Charlie?

42 grains of reloder 10x gave 2200 fps using 275 grain woodleighs. This was a 358 winchester and a 20 inch barrel.

I'd imagine that RL 10x would work even better from the 9.3-308, Allowing less pressure, and maybe even more powder capacity.

Anyhow, these big woodleighs sailed through two massive bull moose. One moose about 100 yds away, the other about 150 yds away.

I can't see why the 9.3-308 wouldn't do the same?

Some of the factory 9.3 ammo that I've shot Alaskan game with, was severely underloaded:

286 grain lapua mega: 2150 fps.
286 grain nosler custom: 2200 fps

They killed just fine, even out to 200 yds.


So many years of hunting Alaska with the 358 and the 9.3x62, I could see no difference in killing power. The only difference, was that I took a 400 yd shot on a caribou, and a 500yd shot on a bull moose with the 9.3x62, that I wouldn't have taken with the 358 win.


Anyhow, just something to think about: actual experience vs hypothetical thinking out loud. This 9.3-308 wildcat will do just fine.