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This is interesting ideas about bear loads. For my shotgun I’ve got 00 buckshot for the simple reason of hoping to have a better chance of hitting what I’m aiming at. If a bear is charging in or circling, I’ve thought it may be tough to hit with a single projectile. So I guess not as much thought about penetration but more about hitting the bear.

mod7rem;
Morning sir, I hope you're doing well up north on what is a bright, clear but coolish morning up here.

For sure as mentioned there's a whole bunch of roads leading to Mecca on this one sir!!

I forgot to mention in my reply to Darren that for local black bears, the Lightfield Slugs have been really effective.

https://www.cabelas.ca/product/98388/lightfield-rubber-slug

It had to be about 60yds that I hit one with this spring and they fly amazingly straight. From the response from the bear, I'd say it was near the end of it's useful energy, but it still got my point across for that day.

We're just overrun with black bears this fall in the south valley here and part of the problem is truly hunters like me who don't shoot them often enough. I'm not a huge fan of eating them, have one rugged up and on the wall so don't need more. All that said, I really should get off the pot and shoot more as they're hard on mule deer fawns according to early data from a study they're finally doing down here.

The MoE biologist conversation was enlightening for me. He was intentionally vague about how many "negative interactions" he'd had, but it was enough that he'd switched from an MoE issue pump gun to a Mod 70 Featherweight of his own, that he'd had either open or aperture sights put on - can't recall sorry - and his preferred load was 200gr Partitions in an '06.

I'm sure you've run into folks who've been there and done that as it were and it's never not educational if one of them wants to tell stories.

There was a chap on gunnutz called "Boomer" who was the chap from Churchill, MB I mentioned. When I got into modifying pump guns years back - I toyed with the idea of going into it as a side hustle, but since we're in Canada and all that have just done some for friends. Anyways Boomer was very open about what had gone wrong both with the tools of his trade and what he put into them.

They're usually using Lightfield less than lethal first unless life has really gone sideways.

Again though for sure, I've always said that one should use what one is comfortable with. My intentions are never to remotely suggest that I alone have the answer or am on the one true path - with anything including my beliefs about a deity, you know?

Just trying to explain how it is I got to where I might understand myself to be today.

All the best and good hunting.

Dwayne

Bull chit… you added absolutely nothing to the conversation initially.. Just yo remind you I quoted your very first post.. Go re watch the queens funeral.. also go get your Covid booster too..

Hey Dwayne,

I concur, the debate continues, one thing for sure I do not carry Bear Spray, I use that to season my steaks when I BBQ them lol.

I see that you too modified the top shotgun with a different stock, I did because the original did not fit me, to my specifications. When my cheek is on the stock, I want to be looking right down the barrel with perfect alignment to the bead.

I have killed two bears to date with a shotgun both at close quarters, both with slugs. The bear skull on the left in my picture, Skull size 19 3/4" was and rather large bear and was shot at 13 yards with 3" Magnum Federal Express Hi Shok slugs. The picture below is the bear I am speaking above, sorry for the poor picture quality, took it from a picture.

Both were pass throughs. The first through both lungs, the second through the liver. When I opened him up, his lungs were what I call "Gelified" his liver was unrecognizable. Believe it or not he ran into the bush for about 60 yards after being shot twice, I could not believe my eyes! I said to myself "How did I miss????"

There is a best of both worlds that I use, depending on where I am bowhunting. 1. I load 5 into my shotgun, the first 2 shots are 3" Magnum Federal Express Hi Shok Slugs, the following three are 3" Magnum 00Buckshot. 2. all 5 rounds are all 00 Buckshot.

I hunted bears for years, but I actually fell in love with them and do not hunt them anymore. The only time I will shoot another is if I am in peril of being attacked or being attacked.

Thank you for the Tip on the Hi-Viz Delrin No Jam follower, I will be ordering one today!

Have a wonderful Sunday on this your 40th anniversary, well done! A family that hunts together stays together :o)

Cheers ~ Darren

Hi Dwayne,
All great info, thanks. I’ve never been charged by a bear or had to shoot at one, but I’m one of the guilty hunters as well for not doing my part. Every spring I buy two black bear tags with the intention of taking a couple bears out of the fawn/calf eating business, and to this day at 53 yrs old have never killed even one bear. I just don’t have any interest in them for some reason. I was pretty determined this spring and actually went out on foot a couple times, but didn’t find any on those days lol.

Dwayne,
Gary Alt headed up our black bear program for many years as a biologist.
He was instrumental in bringing them back state wide.

Then, they put him in charge of the whitetail deer program.
After concluding a big Fawn Mortality study, he made the comment
that he, after decades of studying bears, was shocked at how many fawns end up eaten by bears.

KillerBee;
Thanks for the reply again sir.

That is a whopper of a bear my friend, well done!

Glad to be useful sometimes on any subject. If you've never had the magazine tube off of your shotgun yet, they're typically held in with a chemical thread locker so a wee bit of heat - I use a heat gun - will typically fix that right up and they screw out in the usual "lefty loosey" way.

If you or anyone is ordering the spring and follower kit from S&J, the spring will need to be trimmed or you'll lose some capacity. They send them long on purpose, so just trim with a Dremel and metal cutting wheel a few coils at a time or start with a couple inches longer than the original and work from there.

My goodness though I hear you on black bears not understanding they're dead when hit solidly.

Over the years I've been called in on more black bear "finding" expeditions than anything else. The fact that they have that big fat layer that seems to move and plug up the bleeding holes doesn't help one bit. Then too they don't have hooves so don't kick up dirt the same way as ungulates do.

Thanks again for the reply and for sure for sharing what works for you, I appreciate it.

All the best again.

Dwayne

Dillonbuck;
Good morning or possibly afternoon to you sir, thanks for the reply.

The name Gary Alt is one I'm familiar with and I want to say I've read a few articles and interviews with him over the years.

When I was a youngster in north central Saskatchewan, the MoE did a bit of a study there and determined that black bears were responsible for at least 30% of the moose calf mortality.

Here in the the south Okanagan, we've got no shortage of coyotes, have both Golden and Bald Eagles, are known for our cougars both in size and abundance, relatively recently had wolves move in and as mentioned have no shortage of black bears.

We've been campaigning for a study of our mule deer population for nearly 20 years and were glad to see a serious one started 3 or maybe now it's 4 years back.

Many of us - well let's be honest here sir - me/I - was sure that wolves would come out as the leading cause of mulie doe and fawn mortality. Yet again I was wrong, wrong, wrong.

I want to say wolves killed one or two and cats another couple, but it was the black bears that did in the majority where they were able to pin down a particular predator.

We've seen fairly small black bears chasing mule deer over the years, at times through our yard even. My guess is that like the coyotes/wolves can do, the black bears must get onto a particular animal and just run/walk it down even if it takes all day.

When we were sheep hunting this fall in fact we saw a black bear - at about 1200 yards - with it's head down like a bird dog headed across an opening. Sure enough it was following a mulie doe we'd spotted earlier that morning, because it followed exactly where she'd gone into cover. That morning she came bouncing out and went into a canyon and the last we saw, the bear followed behind, so who knows.

But yes sir, they're a much more efficient killer than many people begin to give them credit for - or at very least can be if so inclined.

All the best and good hunting.

Dwayne

Good post, bud, I have both Brenneke and Challenger slugs andsometimes carry my Benelli 14" tubed "entry gun" when out and about, I much prefer a rifle for bear protection work and good, heavy for caliber Npts. or similar bullets in my handholds. A .338WM or 9.3x62 suits me best, but, at 76+. I need more frequent practice.........

The man obviously has serious problems, both physical and mental. Maybe we should pity him, and for sure anyone that lives in the same house with him.

Dwayne,
For a long time coyotes were blamed for muley declines here in Colorado. More recent research/evidence has pointed to black bears.

Colorado has gone from 1.1 million deer (mostly muleys) to 450k over the past 35 years. Elk population explosion is probably a factor also.

At this point Colorado is throwing bear tags at anybody who will buy one.

Here in west-central Colorado the bears were in the sweet corn so the state started issuing depredation permits. Two years ago between Montrose and Delta they killed 60-70 bears in the corn fields during the month of August. The hunters would wait at the end of field while the pickers were harvesting and let the bears run out the end of the corn rows!

mod7rem;
Good morning to you sir, I hope you're getting decent weather up there and the weekend was a good one.

Regarding bears being good bears and buggering off when politely asked, up until this spring with the one that caught the Lightfield, all but one did for me too.

With that recalcitrant scamp, I was headed back down to the pickup from an unsuccessful conversation with a bull elk. Well it was successful for the elk one could argue I suppose?

The trail led down through a replanted cut block - the same one with the forked top tree that I put up in the photo thread actually - it was hot, as in September in the Okanagan hot, I was sweating and the wind was at my back blowing steady. Way off in the distance I see this stupid little bear coming towards me, maybe 200 yards out and here he comes on a collision course with me.

I'm thinking, "how odd that he doesn't smell me by now", but he keeps coming and at about 75 yards I've flipped my .308 Norma off my shoulder and closed the bolt on a round. By 50 yards I've quit talking to him and am yelling. This escalates to casting aspersions at his lineage and overall character as a bear by about 35 yards, where he stops and starts licking his lips and shifting back and forth on his front feet.

As a longtime horse guy, when a horse is licking it's lips, it's cogitating it's next move, which is as close as a horse might come to "thinking" in my experience.

I recognized this and informed the bear, very loudly might I add, that because I had the Norma, there were only 3 in the rifle and there would be no warning shots. Likely there were a lot of vulgar expletives added too, as I was getting perturbed with it's lack of common curtesy by then.

Finally after what seemed like minutes but honestly might not have been, it turned and shuffled away, stopping a few times to look back at me and me shouting encouragement to keep going.

Honestly I don't know what it was thinking other than it could take the little guy in the cowboy hat, you know?

Then that idiot this spring terrorized our neighborhood for nearly 6 weeks. He was hit 2 times by Lightfield slugs, 3 times with a pellet gun and then I bounced 2 tennis ball sized rocks off of it once too. The MoE had a trap in our yard for a few days, but it didn't come then.

It entered the wrong yard on the last day of spring bear season however, all rules were scrupulously adhered to accordingly and he now being fed as batches of stew to my ancient cat.....

But yah, most bears have been good bears and bugger off when asked.

We've seen what we believe are 11 different bears since season started in September this year, which is a bit higher than normal for sure too.

All the best and good hunting.

Dwayne

Back in the old day's when i was growing up in Western Colorado, you received a Bear Tag Free when you bought a Deer Or Elk Lic. there was no draw back then Elk and Deer Lic. combined $12.00 Rio7

alpinecrick;
Top of the morning to you sir, it's been too long since we've chatted, but I hope you've been well in the interim.

Thanks for that bit of information, it's interesting to see the trends are similar here for mulies, but I'd judge them to be worse in terms of the lack of deer we're seeing.

When we moved here 38 years ago, it was not impossible to go look at 100 mule deer off the highway between here and the next valley over heading east - during the winter months that is Casey.

The girls and I would count the wintering herds between here and where they went to school which was 20 minutes up the valley and our best day was 125.

These days if we see a dozen it's a big number day.

While I'm admittedly no biologist, I think that the combination of logging the old growth, the access that logging has brought to the back country, increased year round recreation in those areas and less than optimum game management has given the mulies here the perfect storm.

Some blame First Nations overharvest and they are a factor, but for the most part the locals here don't cut their own meat, so it's not rocket science to ask the meat cutters for their records and so help me, it's not enough.

Yes it's a factor and so am I as a local hunter too.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I really should start shooting more bears than I have been.

Thanks again and good hunting.

Dwayne

Dwayne, I have a very hard time believing that you used "a lot of vulgar expletives added too, as I was getting perturbed with it's lack of common curtesy by then." LOL

Up until the late 80's, they used to issue bear tags automatically with deer and moose (and elk, till the late 70's) tags here. I think they should go back to it. A lot of guys won't target bear and so, won't buy a tag, but would likely shoot a bear for the camp if their tag were already included.

Pretty sure the magic bullet regarding Mule deer is fire management and the relationship fire has with Mule deer, that combined with sensible game management. Also, if everyone had a stake in Conservation, things would play out different than they do now, it is bizarre that some groups have no stake in Conservation whatsoever.

Wannabebwana;
Good morning to you my cyber friend!



Full disclosure here sir, in a former life I had a cousin turn to me one day, who was no angel herself mind you, to say, "Do you ever hear yourself talk Dwayne, you're incredibly vulgar".

I took it to heart and do attempt to not overuse profanity, however as they say, "I used to speak the language fluently"..

With that young dumb one, I wasn't packing a bear tag back then because I had shot 3 local black bears, the first tasted fine, the second was off and I want to say buddy took the 3rd one home with him, so I'd had enough so to speak.

Since I had no tag, if there would have been gunfire, I'd have had paperwork to do with the CO's.

When I rolled back down the hill after that morning, I bought a black bear tag and have not gone afield without one since. I figure it's a $15 insurance policy every year since if I have it I won't need it, you know?

Should I run into another one that just won't listen to reason now, there'll be a brief session of noise followed by it taking a ride in the Dead Sled back to the pickup. The CO's won't have to be involved at all and life will be simple.

Thanks for the chuckle this morning sir, I appreciate it.

Good hunting and all the best.

Dwayne

673;
Morning my friend, I see your light is on and hope you're all well up there.

Fire is a fascinating thing for sure isn't it?

We've been stomping around in the burns from last summer as you've been too no doubt. Amazing isn't it?

I'd like to see more road restrictions down here too though and maybe deactivate them to the point where the dog clan can't use them so much?

You are again spot on that some groups have no stake in Conservation or it surely looks that way.

Have a good week, stay safe and good hunting.

Dwayne

Far as I know.....only recently have vehicle restrictions been imposed on some fires, that is a good start.
When the Mule deer pops go up 400% several years after a fire, that is great, then they are all shot, that is not so good, Moose too need the fire.

The goal of all user groups having a stake in Conservation should be he primary goal. There is no reason not too, it has FA to do with a Constitutional right.

Dwayne,

I have the same kind of memories growing up in the Uncompahgre Valley.

It was guesstimated from the mid 50's to the late 70's the wintering population of mule deer in the Uncompahgre Valley represented the highest ungulate densities anywhere outside of Africa. More so, the proportion of mature bucks in that population were much higher back then compared to today. As a kid I took that for granted--I kick myself today for not taking more advantage of that situation.

By the mid 80's, according to B&C, 40% of all typical muley bucks entered in the B&C records came within a 75 mile radius of the valley. As an example in 1966 my dad and two hunting partners drew December buck tags on the Uncompahgre Plateau. Being in the middle of the rut, it was like a 1st degree murder season. By the second morning my dad and his buddies each killed a buck, each buck was shot about 400 yds from the other. Two of those bucks qualify for B&C, the third scored 180+.

Another example, when I became old enough to hunt big game in the early 70's (back then in Colorado that was 14 years old) a guy could buy an archery tag, potentially draw a early season rifle tag, buy a tag for the regular rifle season, be offered to buy a doe tag and they threw in another buck tag for free contingent upon killing a doe before using the second buck tag, and potentially draw a late season tag.

That was 6 deer a hunter could potentially kill in the fall.

Today deer are draw only and those same game units take anywhere from 1 to 10+ preference points to draw a buck tag. That's a LONG fall from the deer hunting environment I grew up in here in Colorado.