I keep hollowpoints in my 9mms and .38 Supers, but I'll carry "whatever" in my .45s, usually the 200gr. SWCs or a 230 ball, or someone's 230 HPs (depends on what I can find locally). I really like the good old 200gr. SWCs for most anything I'll need to do with a .45. The .45 made it's reputation with 230 ball, so it doesn't bother me a bit to carry it in my pistols, but most of the newer bullets feed fine, and I'm more about reliability in .45s than any particular shape. I went years and years competing with 200gr. SWCs and had zero pukes or chokes with them. Why mess with that? My old mould was the RCBS 45-201KT, and it's more blunt than the typical H&G 68, but it could be fussier feeding in the wrong pistols. RCBS has since changed that mould to the smaller-meplat #68 type bullet. I think they were wrong to do so, but they didn't ask me, either. My bullets weighed 208gr. when cast out of straight wheelweights. I was happy with that. I gave that mould to Snake River Marksman several years ago, I hope he's getting some use out of it. I've still got a few hundred rounds of that old bullet loaded in 30 year old ammo, and it still shoots lights-out.
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
The only positives about original LCP I owned was small size, flat and light weight. Very suitable for deep concealment. The J-frame (especially light weight DAO) are only good for pocket carry or ankle carry. I see no other applications. All the features (horrible long trigger pull, no grip area, virtually no sights) were designed to miss target at even short ranges.
The only positives about original LCP I owned was small size, flat and light weight. Very suitable for deep concealment. The J-frame (especially light weight DAO) are only good for pocket carry or ankle carry. I see no other applications. All the features (horrible long trigger pull, no grip area, virtually no sights) were designed to miss target at even short ranges.
Colt used to make six-shot alloy framed revolver. It had better grips. It was called Cobra, Agent or Detective Special. Some had steel frames, I am talking about the ones with light alloy frame. I think production halted in 1980s?
Here's Berry's 100 grain plated HP fired from a .380 at 926 fps. It expands impressively at that velocity, but penetration is only about 8" in ballistic gel.
One could probably load it a tad bit hotter, but maybe not enough to make a difference.
Like I said, I might be inclined to load it a bit hotter in a heavier built pistol. But I'm hesitant to hot rod an LCP Max very much. The 5 grain AA #5 load with 100 grain bullets is much snappier than garden variety factory ammo, already. It's probably doing about 950 with hardcast and the soft lead, copper plated bullets from Berry's. So about 950 fps is about as fast as I care to push 100 grain bullets through the LCP Max. At 950, I feel much better with the truncated cone hardcast flat point bullet.
It's a judgement call. I may be right, I may be wrong. But hard cast bullets offer few surprises. They just penetrate.
How often do you hear about projectiles completely going through their intended recipient and having enough energy to do harm to a secondary target, versus the shooter missing the intended target and striking something that they did not intend to?
It is exceedingly rare that "shoot-throughs" happen where a secondary target is injured.
People getting hit who were not supposed to is an entirely different matter, but that is a marksmanship problem and not a projectile performance problem.
I'm not sure what caliber the OP is referring to ??
If you are on the .380 or .38 side of the selections with a short barrel, then ammo choice does become more important, IMHO. Those two calibers will struggle more with performance, but can still get the job done, due to velocity and bullet weight. With those as my choice I would tend more towards those ammo rounds that penetrate more and probably less on the expansion element.
When the caliber is increased and the bullet weight also, there are more choices to fill your own needs. At the .40 and 45ACP level I do pay attention to both penetration and expansion when looking at defensive shooting situations. Some HP can become clogged with clothing, more likely in the winter, and turn into penetrators supreme. But modern bullet design has some options that can handle the clothing issue, provide for very acceptable penetration, and have wonderful expansion for large wound channels. HST from Federal is an example of such a loading in many larger calibers.
I will be carrying factory ammo in my EDC shooters with a look for both penetration and expansion at the speed those loads can produce.
If I was in an outdoor hunting or defense situation against bears I would be looking for Hard Cast driven at fast as I can shoot accurately in a stress situation. I would want to penetrate and hopefully stop such charges quickly and would be using large calibers handloaded fast.
Lucky Gunner ammo seller has some interesting tests on ammo for penetration and expansion for many calibers with many choices of ammo for each caliber.
The only positives about original LCP I owned was small size, flat and light weight. Very suitable for deep concealment. The J-frame (especially light weight DAO) are only good for pocket carry or ankle carry. I see no other applications. All the features (horrible long trigger pull, no grip area, virtually no sights) were designed to miss target at even short ranges.
You're not even trying anymore pastor Cardenas.
And Diaper Boy has never owned a real gun. Airsoft replicas don’t count. 🤪😂🤣
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
If over penetration is not a concern then FMJ/FP non expanding is fine, Even with expanding bullets, a hand gun is still a small hammer big nail tool application. Often people who are dead on their feet, do not know it and are able inflict harm to others. CNS hits are the quicker way to end a encounter. But, that still may have lag time in order to end a conflict. Yes, at lower speeds some bullets will not expand. Barriers/clothing, clogged hollowpoints often make an HP bullet become a FMJ.
I keep hollowpoints in my 9mms and .38 Supers, but I'll carry "whatever" in my .45s, usually the 200gr. SWCs or a 230 ball, or someone's 230 HPs (depends on what I can find locally). I really like the good old 200gr. SWCs for most anything I'll need to do with a .45. The .45 made it's reputation with 230 ball, so it doesn't bother me a bit to carry it in my pistols, but most of the newer bullets feed fine, and I'm more about reliability in .45s than any particular shape. I went years and years competing with 200gr. SWCs and had zero pukes or chokes with them. Why mess with that? My old mould was the RCBS 45-201KT, and it's more blunt than the typical H&G 68, but it could be fussier feeding in the wrong pistols. RCBS has since changed that mould to the smaller-meplat #68 type bullet. I think they were wrong to do so, but they didn't ask me, either. My bullets weighed 208gr. when cast out of straight wheelweights. I was happy with that. I gave that mould to Snake River Marksman several years ago, I hope he's getting some use out of it. I've still got a few hundred rounds of that old bullet loaded in 30 year old ammo, and it still shoots lights-out.
Ball ammo doesn’t perform anything like lead hardcast as Mackey said. The 230 gr ball ammo was designed for the military requirements of a non expanding bullet, and for easy feeding in combat weapons
I get carrying hardcast ammo for the penetration. I carry hardcast ammo for woods carry. I just can’t take the chance with over penetration in church. I carry 147 grain HST in my 9mm’s, 180 grain HST in my .40 S&W, and 230 grain HST in my .45.
Ron
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. Orwell
I keep hollowpoints in my 9mms and .38 Supers, but I'll carry "whatever" in my .45s, usually the 200gr. SWCs or a 230 ball, or someone's 230 HPs (depends on what I can find locally). I really like the good old 200gr. SWCs for most anything I'll need to do with a .45. The .45 made it's reputation with 230 ball, so it doesn't bother me a bit to carry it in my pistols, but most of the newer bullets feed fine, and I'm more about reliability in .45s than any particular shape. I went years and years competing with 200gr. SWCs and had zero pukes or chokes with them. Why mess with that? My old mould was the RCBS 45-201KT, and it's more blunt than the typical H&G 68, but it could be fussier feeding in the wrong pistols. RCBS has since changed that mould to the smaller-meplat #68 type bullet. I think they were wrong to do so, but they didn't ask me, either. My bullets weighed 208gr. when cast out of straight wheelweights. I was happy with that. I gave that mould to Snake River Marksman several years ago, I hope he's getting some use out of it. I've still got a few hundred rounds of that old bullet loaded in 30 year old ammo, and it still shoots lights-out.
Ball ammo doesn’t perform anything like lead hardcast as Mackey said. The 230 gr ball ammo was designed for the military requirements of a non expanding bullet, and for easy feeding in combat weapons
Understood, but I'm not worried about over-penetration, or anything else. 230 ball works pretty well for self-defense, too, maybe not as well as JHPs, but well enough, if it's aimed right. I DO like my old 200gr. SWCs better than anything else, though, they're a really decent load. They took me a long ways in IPSC competition. We don't have bears around here, so I'm not too concerned about penetration anyway.
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
I get carrying hardcast ammo for the penetration. I carry hardcast ammo for woods carry. I just can’t take the chance with over penetration in church. I carry 147 grain HST in my 9mm’s, 180 grain HST in my .40 S&W, and 230 grain HST in my .45.
Ron
What is over penetration how do you define it?
Last edited by jwp475; 11/18/22.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I get carrying hardcast ammo for the penetration. I carry hardcast ammo for woods carry. I just can’t take the chance with over penetration in church. I carry 147 grain HST in my 9mm’s, 180 grain HST in my .40 S&W, and 230 grain HST in my .45.
Ron
You must be Catholic
What if Jessie's girl is Stacy's mom, and her phone number is 867-5309
In my 45’s I carry either the gold dot or hydra shok bullet but I’d have no issue with a SWC design because it will cut a clean 45 caliber hole thru a lot of flesh and bone. My one 357 has 125 JHP in it but it’s only brought out and shot occasionally. I’ve never tried any lead bullets in a 357 but would be concerned about leading the barrel and magnum pressures.
I/we only carry HP ammo for the street. I do know that many people use whatever they have. They have shot people and those people have stopped what they were doing, not threatening anymore and or just died. Carry what makes you feel good and practice, practice, practice, with it. Hits are all that really matters in a gun fight. Just win!
FN Cast do well on things that bleed. They also do well on Barriers in front of things that bleed. All the rest of the situation is a roulette game. The things you can control are choice of what you carry and hitting your target and thus stopping the threat to your life or the life of others. Way more complicated than bullet shape or composition.
Hard cast as a viable alternative to hollow points in a defensive situation? Any problems out of a shorter barreled carry pistol like a 3" barrel?
For .38 Special, a 3" barrel is usually long enough to expand a properly designed hollow point. That extra inch adds a lot of velocity.
That said, with a hard cast (and I'm assuming you mean either a full or semi wadcutter), it's the shape of the bullet that you're relying on to do the damage, rather than hoping that the bullet will change shape upon impact, i.e., mushroom.
So, in that sense, you can always expect the bullet to do its thing, regardless of extraneous factors (like the clothing worn by the target), whereas there is always some level of doubt involved when you rely on a bullet to mushroom on impact.
The better HP designs, given enough velocity, are highly reliable expanders nowadays, but you don't need to worry about such things if you're relying on the bullet shape alone to do the job.
So, if you are going with a HP design, and your barrel length is less than three inches, you will want to pay careful attention to the quality of the bullet, and how much work went into making it a reliable expander at lower velocities, regardless of clothing warn by the target.