Stole this from Facebook, don't remember the back-story.
The huge buck above was harvested by Dennie Bowman in North Carolina in 2014. According to Bluff Country Boys Outdoor TV, the buck’s beams measured 25 and 1/4 inches long with a 19-inch inside spread. ~Outdoorhub.com
Thats in the Adirondacks too where there isn't great food sources and winters are long and hard.
The link says that they were fed extra feed. That could be a little hay in the winter or it could be high nutrient feeds. Either way, it would give him a big boost in the spring when antler growth started.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
I think nutrition has more to do with spikes than anything. Where I’m at in an agricultural part of mid Michigan 1.5 yr old forkhorns are the norm. Up North of here in areas with less ag land and more severe winters spikes are common.
A 1.5 year old spike is fairly normal. If they’re still a spike at 2.5-3.5, that would be abnormal.
Dr. James Kroll did a study surveying the potential of 1.5 year old spikes and 3-pointers vs 1.5 year old 4-pointers and what the correlation was to the antler size at 4.5 years old.
A spike is likely nothing more than a late fawn from last year with a combination of a bad food source or a hard winter. This year I shot a spike in gun season . I thought it was a doe . This year almost all the racks are smaller on 1 1/2 yr old bucks. At the same time we have some real bruisers running around that are older. Last fall was a very un eventfull rut and many could have been born real late . The winter was a little hard but not bad. In a few yrs. they will be like any other buck.
But the fruits of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,faithfulness, Gentleness and self control. Against such things there is no law. Galations 5: 22&23
I pass on em in NY when I hunt up there. Won’t shoot any buck in NY, that ain’t legal here in PA. (Though I’d have to rescind that for one like the NC one pictured)😎
One buck 13 inches or.greater inside spread One buck with one spike antler...
We usually let them walk.. Exception is if someone didnt kill a doe in our doe days and is wanting some extra meat. Or if a youngster has an opportunity to wack one. We occasionally see a 2 1/2 yo with spikes, but not often..
We.do plant spring and fall food.plots, and keep supplemental feed out year round. Pine trees dont have much nutritional value!
I don't see enough deer in NH or Maine to be real choosey. I might pass on a spike if I'm feeling optimist early in the season but will definitely try to take one that I might see late in the season.
I think nutrition has more to do with spikes than anything. Where I’m at in an agricultural part of mid Michigan 1.5 yr old forkhorns are the norm. Up North of here in areas with less ag land and more severe winters spikes are common.
When I was growing up, in Roscommon County, any buck, even a spike, was a trophy.
I think most spikes are just 1.5 year old deer, regardless of nutrition.
I mostly hunt Kansas and central Missouri, and I see spike bucks all the time, lots and lots of spike bucks.
Any 2 1/2 yo buck that doesn't have a 8pt or better set of antlers needs culling. The game laws won't allow a landowner to do what needs doing and you can't allow anyone besides a select few to cull bucks on your property. It sucks when someone mistakes a button buck or spike for a doe, but at least you haven't lost a few years of management in him.
I don't worry about the age of a deer. In nature, a handful of older bucks do it all as they run the young ones off. A single buck can breed 20 or more does. Taking young bucks won't affect the breeding cycles a bit since there will always be enough survivors to become older bucks to get it done.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
Kill them all out or not?? They never amount to much from what I’ve read.
That’s simply not true. A spike can turn into a trophy animal.
From a 6 year study in Texas they found otherwise. First year bucks that had forks or better became much better trophy deer than spikes.
OK, but I didn’t say better trophy deer - I said A trophy deer. Heck, a goodly percentage of bucks in northern WI and Michigan’s UP start life as spikes.
I don't see enough deer in NH or Maine to be real choosey. I might pass on a spike if I'm feeling optimist early in the season but will definitely try to take one that I might see late in the season.
Never EVER pass one on the first day that you would kill on the last day. PERIOD.
NRA Endowment Life Member (and proud of it)
Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. - Plato
Depends, I shot a spike late last year during our 2 day late shotgun season. He was big in the body, and had a sag to his belly. His spikes were about 10 inches on one side and 8 on the other side. He made the mistake of sticking around after I warned him to leave. About 2 minutes later a big doe stopped 88 yards from me and she to was warned. She failed to heed the warning and paid the price. I was fair about it. The failed the my functional hearing test.
Ask John Burns what Keith Warren has to say about it….
I think waterboarding could be done away with as a form of punishment. If one needs to really get someone to talk, prop their eyelids open and make them watch anything Keith Warren has put on tape.
Whoever said they'll not amount to much was right because they shot them when they were spikes.
Texan lease owners think they don't grow into much so they use it as an excuse to shoot them. Everywhere else lets them go so they can grow...and they do. Imagine that. lol
That's very interesting. We have a ton of spikes on my place, nearly all being 1.5yr old deer. We try to let all 1.5-2.5yr bucks walk, but I've also noticed that we have a lot of 3.5yr old "stunty" racks present, much like the bottom row above. It's the pretty little 2.5yr old 8pt basket racks I really try to let walk, as they seem to have better odds of being something nice one day. I wonder what a couple years of spike culling would do...
If you start culling all the spikes you’re depleting your future older class bucks. Shooting yourself in the foot. Science proved that theory of once a spike always a spike wrong many years ago. Anyone who believed it to begin with was a fool
That's very interesting. We have a ton of spikes on my place, nearly all being 1.5yr old deer. We try to let all 1.5-2.5yr bucks walk, but I've also noticed that we have a lot of 3.5yr old "stunty" racks present, much like the bottom row above. It's the pretty little 2.5yr old 8pt basket racks I really try to let walk, as they seem to have better odds of being something nice one day. I wonder what a couple years of spike culling would do...
JPro, This is an excerpt from the second link I share above. I sometimes view Texas as a different country when it comes to deer and deer hunting but I thought this was interesting nonetheless:
The real question is whether you can realistically change the gene pool of a wild population by removing those with inferior antler size or characteristics. This idea was intensively investigated on the famous King Ranch in South Texas. Researchers conducted a very intensive culling experiment to see if the antler genetics of a free-ranging population could be improved. Each year they removed any yearling with fewer than 6 points and any 2 1/2-year-olds with fewer than 9 points on a 9,000 acre treatment area. After eight years of this very intensive culling they compared this experimental area with a similar area with no culling nearby and found no difference in antler quality in each age class of deer. In other words, they compared deer of the same age on the same habitat and the culling produced no noticeable change in the genetics.
It likely mirrors some of Rio's thoughts around this as well. Perhaps he can add to this - be interesting to hear his thoughts.
Interesting.... So it made little difference. I suppose it is indeed age and nutrition that makes a sizeable part of the difference.
There's a large high-fence "deer pen" here and my father knows one of the owners. He said that nearly all of their big bucks are just local deer that were present when the fence went up (probably 20 years back). They just give them the nutrition and let them age. Some brutes come out of there every year. Go right outside the fence and a 120-130" buck is a real trophy and a rarity. Now if you drive 60-70 minutes east, into the river delta farm county, their mature bucks are probably 50-60lbs heavier than ours in northcentral LA. Much better racks also. Good groceries and soils are everywhere.
I've read and listened to biologist state that "culling" is more or less useless on free range properties. To actually manage genetics, a person would need a captive herd (high fence) and know the genetics of both doe and buck.
So taking spike to manage a free range herd is a crap shoot.
The goals I have participated in has been working to get the doe/buck ratio in line and then shooting for age on bucks.
Mouths feeding on the property versus food source is more effective at keeping a herd healthy.
Just my opinion.
All that said, if hunting for the freezer, I have no issue taking whatever the property owner or the laws say I can.
I've read and listened to biologist state that "culling" is more or less useless on free range properties. To actually manage genetics, a person would need a captive herd (high fence) and know the genetics of both doe and buck.
So taking spike to manage a free range herd is a crap shoot.
The goals I have participated in has been working to get the doe/buck ratio in line and then shooting for age on bucks.
Mouths feeding on the property versus food source is more effective at keeping a herd healthy.
Just my opinion.
All that said, if hunting for the freezer, I have no issue taking whatever the property owner or the laws say I can.
Thank you for mentioning the female 50% contribution to a bucks genetics. Too many disregard or at least make it clear that they recognize that as a factor. When discussing antler size, there's no way to attain the info on which does throw the better antlered buck.
I've read and listened to biologist state that "culling" is more or less useless on free range properties. To actually manage genetics, a person would need a captive herd (high fence) and know the genetics of both doe and buck.
So taking spike to manage a free range herd is a crap shoot.
The goals I have participated in has been working to get the doe/buck ratio in line and then shooting for age on bucks.
Mouths feeding on the property versus food source is more effective at keeping a herd healthy.
Just my opinion.
All that said, if hunting for the freezer, I have no issue taking whatever the property owner or the laws say I can.
Thank you for mentioning the female 50% contribution to a bucks genetics. Too many disregard or at least make it clear that they recognize that as a factor. When discussing antler size, there's no way to attain the info on which does throw the better antlered buck.
nope i don`t shoot spikes ,forkhorns ,little 6 pts. or little 8pts. either but if my grandson ,granddaughter ,wife or daughter does that`s fine they don`t get to hunt much. but if i ever got a chance at a old 20 inch straight up antler spike buck those horns would go on a board if i got the shot ,but i have never seen a huge spike buck . we have decent deer where i hunt because myself and a few neighbors let little bucks go. and it has given all of a chance at a bigger buck once in a while.
Ask John Burns what Keith Warren has to say about it….
I think waterboarding could be done away with as a form of punishment. If one needs to really get someone to talk, prop their eyelids open and make them watch anything Keith Warren has put on tape.
😂😂😂
#thehighroad
Dave
�The man who complains about the way the ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it.� Lou Holtz
nope i don`t shoot spikes ,forkhorns ,little 6 pts. or little 8pts. either but if my grandson ,granddaughter ,wife or daughter does that`s fine they don`t get to hunt much. but if i ever got a chance at a old 20 inch straight up antler spike buck those horns would go on a board if i got the shot ,but i have never seen a huge spike buck . we have decent deer where i hunt because myself and a few neighbors let little bucks go. and it has given all of a chance at a bigger buck once in a while.
Can’t kill an old buck if you shoot all the young bucks
SKane, We are about 20 miles West of the Encino Division, of the King Ranch, and receive all the info on Wildlife that Texas A&M & Klieghburg Wildlife Foundation produce. We tried doing some selective breeding about 15 yrs ago, We built 3 10 acre high fence pens, 1 on the Main Ranch ! on the North Ranch ! on the West Ranch, because of the different habitat, We captured 20 Does, and a Trophy Buck for each pen, each pen had a good fresh water supply and a large protein feeder, and very heavy cover AKA brush, we put the deer in the last of November, and tried not to disturb them except to fill the feeder and check water. We kept them penned until May 1st, then opened the gates shut off the water and protein, and let them leave to have their fawns on their own, we did this for 5 years,, We did not pen raise any Deer, we tried to keep them wild and born free range. it's expensive and time consuming, and after 5 years we felt it wasn't worth the effort. we haven't seen a noticeable change in our deer. Mother Nature Controls Wildlife here we don't, except we try to let our Bucks grow up before we take them off. shoot baby deer and all you will have is baby deer. Rio7
Young spikes, like all young bucks, get a pass from me.
Same here.
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad." ---------------------------------------------- "Jimmy, some of it's magic, Some of it's tragic, But I had a good life all the way." (Jimmy Buffett)
This is not a normal thing, but I had one here a few years back that never had anything but spikes his whole life. They turned into nice main beams without any points on them, even brow tines. I had several chances to shoot Him, but not legal except for kids under sixteen years of age. I tried to put kids on Him several times with no success. They all killed deer but never the one that I wanted dead. After about five years He dissappeared. miles
This is my 6pt from last year[2021]. Almost positive that he was a hoop antlered spike in 2020, I sat in my truck and and observed him at about 50' one morning heading to work. As a spike he had maybe a 15" inside spread and plenty of mass[for a spike].
Once a spike always a spike isn’t true. That is a given.
But young deer with MORE than a spike will tend to develop more antler mass than young spikes
In my opinion, the 1.5 y/o bucks with a heavy main and small fork will end up being big bucks. You can already see g1's starting. You typically see them in the high country and around areas where you more consistently find big bucks. Thin spikes and thin forks end up those middl'n bucks that you shoot for meat but don't put on the wall.
I have shot some very young 4x4 bucks. Kinda a regret once you get up to them and see a young body and a small framed rack, but already a 4x4. My guess is that those are the mashers when they hit prime.
Just my guesses.
The biggest reason to not shoot a spike is the very small meat yield. 25-40lbs at best. A mature buck will have much more meat for your tag. I hate butchering the small bucks too. Seems like your meat to work ratio is all out of whack.
As long as it's legal I take it, you can't eat the antlers and I've gotten my trophy whitetail years ago. I'm hunting for venison not size of rack.
Does eat well too. And it removes the need for telling folks you took a "meat buck".
I agree with this. I'm not a trophy hunter, I'm a opportunity hunter and when the opportunity presents itself I take the shot. I know people that will shot a spike elk but won't shoot a spike deer. I don't see a difference between the two other then the amount of meat.
As long as it's legal I take it, you can't eat the antlers and I've gotten my trophy whitetail years ago. I'm hunting for venison not size of rack.
Does eat well too. And it removes the need for telling folks you took a "meat buck".
I agree with this. I'm not a trophy hunter, I'm a opportunity hunter and when the opportunity presents itself I take the shot. I know people that will shot a spike elk but won't shoot a spike deer. I don't see a difference between the two other then the amount of meat.
It's cause that is the only tag I can get in the unit I wanna hunt sometimes, and my God, has there ever been a spike elk that has tasted badly
I'd dare say a spike elk is the finest meat on the mountain.
They say the bull to cow ratio is tilted to 2 many cows!
Then spike tags are sold OTC!
Aaaargh
Great point. The unit I was referring to is a unit in Oregon that is a Trophy unit that has some crazy, big bulls, but it is a long, long wait time for a non resident to ever draw a tag, but they issue spike tags fairly easily and man, its a great way to watch big bulls and stock the freezer.
As long as it's legal I take it, you can't eat the antlers and I've gotten my trophy whitetail years ago. I'm hunting for venison not size of rack.
Does eat well too. And it removes the need for telling folks you took a "meat buck".
I agree with this. I'm not a trophy hunter, I'm a opportunity hunter and when the opportunity presents itself I take the shot. I know people that will shot a spike elk but won't shoot a spike deer. I don't see a difference between the two other then the amount of meat.
It's cause that is the only tag I can get in the unit I wanna hunt sometimes, and my God, has there ever been a spike elk that has tasted badly
I'd dare say a spike elk is the finest meat on the mountain.
I can't argue with that, makes me hungry just thinking about it
As long as it's legal I take it, you can't eat the antlers and I've gotten my trophy whitetail years ago. I'm hunting for venison not size of rack.
Does eat well too. And it removes the need for telling folks you took a "meat buck".
I agree with this. I'm not a trophy hunter, I'm a opportunity hunter and when the opportunity presents itself I take the shot. I know people that will shot a spike elk but won't shoot a spike deer. I don't see a difference between the two other then the amount of meat.
It's cause that is the only tag I can get in the unit I wanna hunt sometimes, and my God, has there ever been a spike elk that has tasted badly
I'd dare say a spike elk is the finest meat on the mountain.
As long as it's legal I take it, you can't eat the antlers and I've gotten my trophy whitetail years ago. I'm hunting for venison not size of rack.
Does eat well too. And it removes the need for telling folks you took a "meat buck".
What does it matter?
Haven't you used up enough of your lives here? Perhaps you're in competition with Larry Root for most reinventions?
And still can't answer a simple question. Why do you care how wizard choses to hunt? What does that matter to you? Yet, like a liberal, it's not good unless it matches your style.
At least you were good at sticking up for Roundoak.
What if Jessie's girl is Stacy's mom, and her phone number is 867-5309
In areas where buck to doe ratios are out of whack, some does aren’t bred until their second or third cycle. A buck born from that doe has a lot of growing to do and skeletal growth takes priority over antlers.
Also, the doe contributes a large component to the genetic mix.
NRA Life,Endowment,Patron or Benefactor since '72.
If you haven't read the link Deer_Man posted on this thread it's worth reading. Nothing like a University Study on this topic. The studies last comment about harvesting Doe's was very interesting to me.
You are only dependent on the writers interpretation.
Figures don’t lie
But liars figure.
Antler growth is a heritable trait.
A 1.5 year old whitetail buck whose antlers have eye gaurds and points will at maturity ( and getting to maturity) have larger antlers than an1.5 year old spike. Most of the time.
Also a unantlered deer…..aka a doe….will most likely never have any antlers
FACT
Last edited by Angus1895; 12/20/22.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
As long as it's legal I take it, you can't eat the antlers and I've gotten my trophy whitetail years ago. I'm hunting for venison not size of rack.
Does eat well too. And it removes the need for telling folks you took a "meat buck".
What does it matter?
Haven't you used up enough of your lives here? Perhaps you're in competition with Larry Root for most reinventions?
And still can't answer a simple question. Why do you care how wizard choses to hunt? What does that matter to you? Yet, like a liberal, it's not good unless it matches your style.
At least you were good at sticking up for Roundoak.
A polite way of saying: "lacking the skillz to take a mature buck" maybe
As long as it's legal I take it, you can't eat the antlers and I've gotten my trophy whitetail years ago. I'm hunting for venison not size of rack.
Does eat well too. And it removes the need for telling folks you took a "meat buck".
What does it matter?
Haven't you used up enough of your lives here? Perhaps you're in competition with Larry Root for most reinventions?
And still can't answer a simple question. Why do you care how wizard choses to hunt? What does that matter to you? Yet, like a liberal, it's not good unless it matches your style.
At least you were good at sticking up for Roundoak.
Easy answer - just curious as to what it is about this place that you continually find your way back after getting the boot. I used to subscribe to (as many did) "ahhh, dude is just misunderstood", but the reality is "dude is just an @sshole with obvious issues". As for roundoak, yep, he got me. It's hard when someone appears to be a gentleman - particularly with that sort of tenure. It's easy to spot the @ssholes in a hurry, Steelhead.
As to the inquiry, in gunswizard's state, there are ample does for the taking. Heck, in some areas of Indiana, you can get 5+ doe tags – the reason for that is to get the herd back to a better buck/doe ratio. But old heads "have to get a buck". Legal? Yeah. Big picture? Not in the least.
I hunt a section-sized WMA, surrounded by wooded residential property and farmland. What one hunter does makes little difference in such a place, and there are big bucks on the adjoining properties where does run in large groups on ag lands. I shoot what I see, excepting obvious fawns and button bucks. Been hunting that property off and on for 30 years, steadily the past six years. Have never seen a buck that’s impressed me, even during the squirrel and bow seasons. Two deer a year is enough and to spare for our meat needs, so I can be picky after I get those, but that choice has yet to appear as deer get very hard to even see after the deer have been hunted for 2 1/2 months. Last chance for a good buck will be the four-day Mountaineer Heritage Season next month. Gonna try and get out a time or two then, but that’s when really bad weather is possible, so it’s a crapshoot as to whether or not I can even access that place then.
if i had the money i would buy much more land and protect most young deer ,except grandkids that are young and the ladies until they have shot a few more they still can shoot 1 deer a year any size most of the time on my property , but they never shoot and that`s ok too. on my small tract of land 200 acres . neighbor who has 600 acres feels the same way ,i have been putting out minerals for around 25 years so these deer 4th,5th maybe 6th or 7th generation deer that have minerals in them and the antler size has gotten bigger. so on this property son and i don`t shoot little bucks ,does or fawns we are hoping to grow a few more giant bucks and we know also that these are wild deer and some get shot by other people too on other land. if i wanna shoot just a deer i go some place else to take some venison for the freezer , but i still don`t shoot spikes ,forks little 6 or 8`s anyplace that someday may be someone`s trophy of a life time . take a doe if you need meat and most of us don`t need that either really . >just think if a spike grew up to be a trophy in a young hunters eyes and this youth shot the buck gets it mounted his memory of that hunt will give that youth joy for his lifetime > just let them go so these spikes can grow < don`t be selfish so you can say : ya i got my buck again this year but my buck was small again be proud and say i passed this year again to small maybe next year .good luck ,Pete53
yes. And we have our takes on that. We never kill 18 month old bucks. But by 3.5 they have a legit chance to breed. IMHO a spike thats a spike for 2 years in a row isn't ever going to be the best deer out there. But we strive to take out every 3.5 year old buck thats not promising. We have watched a lot over the years and let a lot of 3.5/4.5 year olds live a few more years that we think won't make much. And not a single one ever has.
I know studies show otherwise. And we can't control the genetics of the does. But I'll say this. The 3places we've been on that we have employed our methods our deer have grown bigger and older and as good as they can grow for said area. Thats enough for me.
Short answer, age is the factor.
And those that say we have to shoot X because the neighbor will if we dont... consider I've watched this on fence lines for 40 years. I've found it to be true maybe 35% of the time. The known is that if you kill them they won't make it. If you don't they have a chance. And a pretty good one actually. And then there is the fact I'm happy if they neighbors get deer. Even if its the best one around. They are hunting just like I am and I wish them luck.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
In my area it takes 2 things to get big bucks. Genetics and the ability to grow to prime.
There are areas with old bucks, but the genetics are funky antlers and rarely will you get a symmetrical, heavy buck. Other areas have old bucks and spectacular antlers. You can just look at certain bucks and be fairly accurate as to what area it was killed in.
I've hunted places in the similar area I hunt now. Club's that charge a significant amount to hunt. When they make rules like 8 point or better, 16 inch spread, etc. That deer rarely has a chance when it meets the rule regardless of age. I can't blame members that pay 6-8K to hunt the property. For that kind of money, most guys will take that deer. My first rack buck came from there, and is hanging on my wall. But after learning and watching, that buck gets a pass today.
I now hunt a place that is private, about four miles away. By invite only, but I am blessed to have plenty enough invites. The owner is a friend that has taught me a totally different way to take bucks.
Age - age - age. We take roughly 30 does a year, and 15+ bucks. Usually 2-3 are 140+ bucks. Which is pretty damn strong for Louisiana land that is free range. The property is bordered by two other land owners that apply the same principles.
It used to be "If it's brown, it's down" when we could take 6 bucks a year. About 8 or 10 years ago they started an antler restriction of at least 3 points on one side. However, you are still allowed to take one buck with less than that. Kids are exempt. After they started the antler restrictions, they also cut us back to only 4 bucks a year, then they took us down to 3 bucks per year. Now that we can only take 3 bucks, I won't shoot anything less than an 8 point unless I need meat or it's getting close to when they drop their horns. Spikes get a pass. I will admit though, you start dealing with low light and longer shots through the woods, there have been a bunch of spikes that got mistaken for does over the years.
"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." Ronald Reagan
It used to be "If it's brown, it's down" when we could take 6 bucks a year. About 8 or 10 years ago they started an antler restriction of at least 3 points on one side. However, you are still allowed to take one buck with less than that. Kids are exempt. After they started the antler restrictions, they also cut us back to only 4 bucks a year, then they took us down to 3 bucks per year. Now that we can only take 3 bucks, I won't shoot anything less than an 8 point unless I need meat or it's getting close to when they drop their horns. Spikes get a pass. I will admit though, you start dealing with low light and longer shots through the woods, there have been a bunch of spikes that got mistaken for does over the years.
The latter half of this is pretty similar to my experience hunting Northern VA. I would take a few does in bow season and I typically wouldn’t shoot anything smaller than a mature 8 but at the end of the general season a couple of the properties insisted I/we remove any legal deer to include spikes and does.
I don't mean to seem flippant but I've never seen a spike whitetail. They just don't happen where I live and hunt in Saskatchewan. A year and a half old buck generally has three or so bitty points on top of each antler. That's just what's normal for our genetics. I agree with the idea of selective harvest, and also feel our deer have suffered in recent decades from the tendency of everyone wanting to shoot a "buck" vs just being happy with a "deer". Traditions and habits have evolved here. During my 50 years as a Saskatchewan hunter, hunting habits and norms changed a lot. Our ecosystem originally held fewer deer, and hunters shot any deer they could tag with a single annual either-sex license. Back then we had a disproportionate number of "huge" bucks vs the sparse deer population. More recently, populations have increased, sometimes two tags are issued, Saskatchewan resident hunters often decline to shoot does, and pass on smallish bucks. But since nearly all hunters shoot every decent branch antlered buck they see, there is section pressure for smaller racks. The deer that grow medium sized antlers at a young age get shot and never get old. And I believe that has had an effect on the population. I think we don't produce nearly as many really big bucks as in the past, because of selective harvest pressure. We might even start producing spikes. That would be sad.
Below are pictures of a "typical" yearling ( 18 month old) and the smallest one I've ever shot.
Last edited by castnblast; 12/21/22. Reason: added pictures
Like people rules are not absolute. Stereotypes however, fit over a broad sample.
I believe spikes are not of the best genetics. Some are young, some aren't. As stated before our retarded Game Department protects them. I have never seen a farmer keep an animal that shows signs of imperfection around to be breed stock.
Dont believe in once a spike always one. I do believe policy needs to be made on numbers and trends, not individual examples that excell.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
Watched a 1 horned spike for an hour in one of our food plots this weekend joker ate enough quality groceries he ought to be at least a 10 point next year
Was going to spook him away he was eating so much, but enjoyed watching him too much.
I think selective pressure is the reason spikes have evolved , in some areas to be dominant.
And it’s also so like the gubment to consult wheel reinventing beurocrats to protect them.
He is totally correct.
A farmer culls his lesser stock and holds the superior specimens for breeding stock. What hunters are doing in Saskatchewan is the opposite. With the exception of deer ranching places, it's what happens everywhere. Often have heard that wild populations are different than domestic, and that's true. Bucks fight and travel, so there isn't a single local male breeder.
Our point restriction has produced bigger bucks over the last 15 years, but what are the long term effects? I know there are areas where spikes are more prolific around here. And I think, just a guess! I'm seeing more in our area tg an before.
As to shooting one? When I would have eagerly, I never saw one. Later, I passed a few. Either because I had time and was hoping for better, or they were protected.
Instead of a doe now days? Absolutly. A producer of fawns vs a possibly genetically retarded buck that might pass it on?
Only one I ever shot was a doe. Until I walked up to it.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
It used to be "If it's brown, it's down" when we could take 6 bucks a year. About 8 or 10 years ago they started an antler restriction of at least 3 points on one side. However, you are still allowed to take one buck with less than that. Kids are exempt. After they started the antler restrictions, they also cut us back to only 4 bucks a year, then they took us down to 3 bucks per year. Now that we can only take 3 bucks, I won't shoot anything less than an 8 point unless I need meat or it's getting close to when they drop their horns. Spikes get a pass. I will admit though, you start dealing with low light and longer shots through the woods, there have been a bunch of spikes that got mistaken for does over the years.
I might add to this also.
Since they started the antler restrictions, the quality and abundance of quality bucks has gone up. It seems like these days we have more bigger bucks to chose from, so there's no need to shoot the small ones. Especially when we can only take 3. Just be patient and they will come, but we have a very robust deer herd where I hunt.
We've got spikes wandering all over the place where I hunt. Last night I got busted by a real nice wide buck. All I saw was him running away after he blew at me. We had light winds, but it was moving directly to where he was and he winded me from about 100 yards away. We still have another week of ML, then a few days of rifle the first week of January. The rest of January is bow, with a few days of primitive the beginning of Feb. Our bucks lose their horns around the first or second week of January. So from then on, it can be difficult to tell the difference between the does and the bucks. I try to only shoot does so that we get to see what these guys might grow next year.
As far as spikes having bad genes goes, it doesn't seem as though it's affected the quality here. They pretty much get a pass and then they grow into stuff like this.
Last edited by StoneCutter; 12/22/22.
"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." Ronald Reagan
yes. And we have our takes on that. We never kill 18 month old bucks. But by 3.5 they have a legit chance to breed. IMHO a spike thats a spike for 2 years in a row isn't ever going to be the best deer out there. But we strive to take out every 3.5 year old buck thats not promising. We have watched a lot over the years and let a lot of 3.5/4.5 year olds live a few more years that we think won't make much. And not a single one ever has.
I know studies show otherwise. And we can't control the genetics of the does. But I'll say this. The 3places we've been on that we have employed our methods our deer have grown bigger and older and as good as they can grow for said area. Thats enough for me.
Short answer, age is the factor.
And those that say we have to shoot X because the neighbor will if we dont... consider I've watched this on fence lines for 40 years. I've found it to be true maybe 35% of the time. The known is that if you kill them they won't make it. If you don't they have a chance. And a pretty good one actually. And then there is the fact I'm happy if they neighbors get deer. Even if its the best one around. They are hunting just like I am and I wish them luck.
In our club, we’ll shoot a doe for meat versus a young buck. If you shoot a spike, he’ll never have a rack of any kind 😁
NRA Life,Endowment,Patron or Benefactor since '72.
I’m not a believer that spikes are genetic trait. I have earmarked spikes on our trail cameras one year only to return as 8-9 pointers the next year. IMO it’s more of a nutrition issue that anything else.
My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost.
There are VERY FEW mature spikes... therefore, most spikes are fawns or 1 1/2 year old bucks. If you want to, have at it... they will never get to be big and mature if you shoot all the babies.
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die, I want to go where they went" Will Rogers
Leave them be. The odds you’re seeing a deer older than 1year that’s a spike is pretty rare…. Few deer don’t go downhill so far with old age they revert to being spike….
If you’re happy with 30lbs of meat and wasting a young buck I guess go ahead… it’s your tag you paid for it
But to infer there are older spikes or younger spikes???? They are all within a month or so in age. If you can tell a 16 month old deer from a 18 month old deer I applaud you..
Hell the kids I take hunting won’t even shoot spikes anymore..
It depends. Most places spikes are basically babies and should be left alone. I've seen a couple of pockets of screwed up genetics where there were a large number of very big bucks with spikes. I think those should be wiped out. Those big, mature spikes will out compete the babies. If we kill only the big branched antler bucks leaving only the large spikes and baby spikes to get the breeding done, we're going to reinforce the screwed up genes that lead to those concentrations of big spikes.
The remaining question is will the average hunter, given a chance to "kill a spike" wait for those big ones or poke the first baby the comes by? So possibly we need some parameters on the spikes allowed .. spikes longer than the ears perhaps. Or it needs to be handled either as a cull hunt under direct supervision of the F&G biologists or via something like Oregon's now-defunct master hunter program which was very nearly the same thing. It can help, I think, if these "big spike" tags are additional tags rather than "instead of" tags.
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Age and size. IMO an adult buck with spikes should be removed from the gene pool so that he doesn't pass on his inferior genetic traits.
You very seldom see a buck that isn't a yearling with spikes in eastern Nebraska, as the weather is mild and quality food is abundant.
In Nebraska a whitetail is "antlerless" if the spikes are less than 6" long, so I suppose that there are a few tagged every year by people with antlerless tags.
I shoot several does every year. I also try to kill the bucks I’ve watched for a couple of years with messed up racks. Like a spike on one side for a second or third year in a row. Couldn’t tell you the last time I shot a spike. Where I live we can kill basically as many deer as we want so often I’ll kill 6-10 does a year. I let the young bucks walk but I’ve got a neighbor that kills a couple young bucks or spikes every year then complains that he never sees a bruiser buck….. well no $hit……
If it's legal, in the freezer it goes. That said, in 56 years of whitetail hunting I've only taken two.
My thoughts exactly. I ha e shot small buttons and dies, but only one spike ino er 50 years, all thd test have been about 4x4 or more Not that t matters , as long as it's legal. Does with fawns get a pass for obvious reasons though Cat
If it's legal, in the freezer it goes. That said, in 56 years of whitetail hunting I've only taken two.
My thoughts exactly. I ha e shot small buttons and dies, but only one spike ino er 50 years, all thd test have been about 4x4 or more Not that t matters , as long as it's legal. Does with fawns get a pass for obvious reasons though Cat
You’re not doing those fawns any favors. By fall/winter they are on browse and just hanging around with the adult doe. In areas where winters can be harsh and food in short supply, mama will run them off to keep what’s available for herself. Late season, an adult doe with a buck fawn hanging around, I will shoot the doe every time if I have an appropriate tag.
an adult doe will make it thru a tuff winter a fawn won`t neither will a big old buck . late fall fawns taste very good too compared to any other deer too.
There's no real reason to shoot spikes, you can't cull enough spikes to ever see a difference....... unless it's less bucks in the future. I also don't like shooting fawns - yearlings, you never know when one might be a button buck. Deer are good eating if you kill them at the right time.
Last year the left antler was pressed against his jaw.
I let him walk.
If I see him this year, he is going to die!
Ya!
GWB
It’s probably time for that one to go. You have a good history on him.
Biologists say that unless you have total control of a big area with good forage year ‘round and your neighbors take the same approach, culling spikes is a waste of time. If the buck to doe ratio is off and your does are bred late and as a consequence, the buck fawns are born late in the year, it wouldn’t be unusual for them to only grow spikes. Some spikes catch up, some don’t but if you shoot a spike this year he surely won’t be on his way to catch up next year. The ones to protect are the yearlings with small six or eight point racks.
Lots of folks don’t realize that the doe’s genetics are part the problem as well.
NRA Life,Endowment,Patron or Benefactor since '72.
Everyone has ideas, and places are different. As are the times.
Was a time, years ago, we lived on deer meat. I killed does exclusively, for meat. Any buck was someone's trophy.
Then they massacred our herd. Now I'd rather kill any buck, for any reason, than kill does. Bucks are just bucks, females can get bred and are the future. Now days we can get a half dozen tags, only 1 buck. Can't kill does with a clear conscience anymore. Unfortunately others don't feel that way. So they keep hammering does, and complain how it's gotten hard to fill tags. As they kill more.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
That's very interesting. We have a ton of spikes on my place, nearly all being 1.5yr old deer. We try to let all 1.5-2.5yr bucks walk, but I've also noticed that we have a lot of 3.5yr old "stunty" racks present, much like the bottom row above. It's the pretty little 2.5yr old 8pt basket racks I really try to let walk, as they seem to have better odds of being something nice one day. I wonder what a couple years of spike culling would do...
Shooting horns to control genetics for the purpose of improving antler quality is putting the cart before the horse. I did see a study in QDMA that suggested that shooting some younger bucks is good to improve survival rates of other young bucks in the area. This has something to do with the remaining younger bucks not being kicked out of their home ranges.
Only one way to shoot a big buck, and thats to not shoot him when he’s little. That’s the hard part, passing on a 3 or 4 year old 8 or 10 point that is handsome and starting to put on some body and antler mass.
We get 5 tags where I hunt in Texas. If I’m still looking for deer meat by the time our late season doe and spike season rolls around, they are are the same to me.
Last year the left antler was pressed against his jaw.
I let him walk.
If I see him this year, he is going to die!
Ya!
GWB
It’s probably time for that one to go. You have a good history on him.
Biologists say that unless you have total control of a big area with good forage year ‘round and your neighbors take the same approach, culling spikes is a waste of time. If the buck to doe ratio is off and your does are bred late and as a consequence, the buck fawns are born late in the year, it wouldn’t be unusual for them to only grow spikes. Some spikes catch up, some don’t but if you shoot a spike this year he surely won’t be on his way to catch up next year. The ones to protect are the yearlings with small six or eight point racks.
Lots of folks don’t realize that the doe’s genetics are part the problem as well.
This is at my brother's place.
I would take the spike 11 times out of 10 before I would take one of these 3 yr. olds. (my estimation). I keep several feeders going. I've got cellular cameras set up and I love watching the deer in real time. Since I'm paying the freight, I've asked him not to let anyone (including me) to take either of these two for at least a year if not two.
Kill them all out or not?? They never amount to much from what I’ve read.
IMHO it's an "it depends" question. If it is still small framed, hasn't grown to full adult size, let it grow and see what it turns into. If it is a full sized adult, 2 years old or more, shoot it and eat it, it has spike genes that probably shouldn't be passed along. Not just spikes .. we've got some does around here that I'd shoot if I had a tag, they've got weird ears that droop 'n' stuff suggesting too many generations of inbreeding. (I guess we have some neighbors like that, too.)
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
This spike walked within a few feet of my burlap wind break a few years back and jumped sideways when I moved, stopping but 20 yards away from me. I could only see its back when it walk by in a bit of a down slope. The only reason I didn't kill him was because I had already filled my antlered tag earlier that fall, and had two anterless tags ( antlers under 4") in my pocket. This is in Alberta, we don't have buck and doe tags, but antlered and antlerless. You can see the trail he was on in front of my blind, this was two days after I saw him
If it's legal I take it, spikes, forkhorns. I've even taken a button buck on a deer reduction hunt, I thought it was a doe till I came up upon it. Young deer's venison is tender and tasty.
I think I've shot one spike ever and one 5 point that I shouldn't have. It was clearly his first rack. I'd rather have a doe these days if I feel like shooting a deer. The kids can shoot whatever they want. I'd rather help them out.
We had a genetic thing going on quite a few years ago. My brother and I noticed spiked one horned buck and didn’t shoot him. A year later there was four of them walking around. At the end of season there was zero left. We must have got rid of that gene in time because no more popped up. Edk
In Nebraska, whitetail bucks are considered to be "antlerless" if they antlers less than 6" long. A buck with small spikes can easily be mistaken for a doe at ranges past 100 or so yards. The "River" WMA tags allows for 2 antlerless deer to be taken, with no limit on the number of tags you can buy. They are a "seasons choice" tag, meaning that you can use them during any open season. I donate most of the deer that I shoot to Hunters Feeding The Hungry, which allows me to shoot several deer with different rifles or loads each year.
Everyone has ideas, and places are different. As are the times.
Was a time, years ago, we lived on deer meat. I killed does exclusively, for meat. Any buck was someone's trophy.
Then they massacred our herd. Now I'd rather kill any buck, for any reason, than kill does. Bucks are just bucks, females can get bred and are the future. Now days we can get a half dozen tags, only 1 buck. Can't kill does with a clear conscience anymore. Unfortunately others don't feel that way. So they keep hammering does, and complain how it's gotten hard to fill tags. As they kill more.
Yeah and they fish my stream at my Camp until there's not a trout in it. Then they still keep fishing it. It's just the PA way
The places I hunt now are 1 buck states and it gets expensive in a hurry to transport the meat home. If I’m not shooting something with an impressivenn I am eating the tag instead a spike.
The largest bodied 1.5 YO spike that I've killed (NEVER have passed one up!) had a 3" spike on one side, and 3 1/2" on the other side, with a bit of a knob on it, 330 # of boned out meat. I initially thought him to be a cow, at 30 yards! Then I noticed those funny eyebrows..... And no, he was not a big calf of the year - his antlers were hard, not velvety and soft.
The smallest bodied one that I've killed had 16" velvet spikes, 270 # boned meat. (16 yards, if you must know.). Both with a .338WM. For the bears, doncha know.
They were killed several years and 5 miles apart, in identical habitat - a common burn area, with excellent winter feed and similar winters/snow.
Pretty sure it was genetics, but who knows for sure?
I did let a "spike" get away from me one time, under spike-fork/50inch/3 brow tine rules. At the time, he was 3 or 4, and I didn't see that he only had a long, 20 or so inch spike on the side away from me until he turned and stepped into the brush. 4 years later, and a half mile away, I got him tho, I think. That same side, on the bull I shot, had a main palm noticeably smaller than the "good side", tines less than a couple inches long on that side, and where the brow tines should have been, was a "drop-tine" lump of antler about 2 1/2 inches in diameter and 4 or 5 inches long. He was in full rut on Sept 13 about 2 weeks before he should have been, but hadn't been fighting yet, and came in hard to my call. Excellent eating, despite that.
He would have been legal the first time I saw him with that spike. When I shot hum, he had 3 brows on the good side, and went 53 inches. Had the antlers been symmetrical, he would have been about 58", I think. I suspect his deformity was due to either a damaged antler bud, or a damaged/undeveloped testicle.
They all hunt the same and eat the same(well, latter not strictly true).
At 200 acres, our place is big by local standards, but not big enough to really influence the herd on our own.
Being in Zone 1, Kentucky allows one antlered deer per year and any number of antlerless harvests. We have 2 weeks and a day to get the job done. If you have the urge to burn your buck tag on a spike, have at it.
We have the Spike Wall at camp. If you harvest a spike it goes up on the wall. For a young kid, it is a badge of honor. For the rest of us, it is a remembrance of some moment of angst or frustration or regret we'd rather leave at camp. On the occasion of Opening Day Dinner, we have The Toast, and it is delivered towards the Spike Wall. There aren't all that many up there, but we all have one or two.
Quote
“He that outlives this day and comes safe home will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam’d, And point a finger at his mounted antlers saying ‘These wounds! These wounds, I gave on Opening Day!’ For he today that sheds blood with me shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile. This day shall gentle his condition. And Gentlemen all now in bed shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks that hunted with us on Opening Day.”
My Spike came to me about a decade ago. I was out on a dark, windy afternoon and there was this single forlorn creature that came out and ate for a good long time with his head down in the tall grass. I glassed him all that time trying to make out any antlers. Finally, I concluded it was a doe and shot. This picture was snapped just as I was falling over.
I thought I killed a spike a few years ago, ended up being a 3pt. He weighed 194lbs and the spikes were both over 20 inches. I've had a couple of hunters kill spikes thinking they were a doe. I tell them spikes will usually be by themselves or with other small bucks, but the thrill of killing something overwhelms thinking.
I shot a spike that was a mature buck with both horns broken off. I knew it was an adult deer as it ran across the field but where were it's horns? I saw them when it stopped, so I shot. I would shoot again if that happens again. One of the places I hunted in Wisconsin has tons of broken horn deer.
Im curious Why is a large rack buck "better " than a doe or spike or smaller buck? I've hunted places in the past where a 10 point buck wasn't that much bigger pound wise than some 8 pointers, so the "more meat " argument is invalid
i had the same spike for 7 or 8 years at my place. how do i know? the right side of the neck had a fist sized white patch. his antlers grew, but no points. whether he died of natural causes or was shot by some kid, i don't know. yes, i agree with you that spikes are likely to grow up bigger antler (points) size, but i have seen that some bucks don't.
my first buck (14yo) was a spike. it was 2 3/4" on the right and 3" on left. (3" antler was or is PA game law). i shot about 3 or 4 spikes in my younger days. there was a time i decided that i would only shoot big bucks, but after my stroke (disabled hunter) my choice becomes, yeah, i'll shoot a spike after the first week rifle season, with a condition. it has to be over 170lbs (150lbs is the average deer). two years ago, i shot a very fat 4pt that weighed 171 lbs field dressed. yes, because i am disabled, i can shoot a spike thru 4 pt. i'm no longer allowed the 3pt rule (4 pt in some counties). i can also use a semi if it is compatible to 5 round magazine. i have a (Dad, RIP, gun) M1 30 Carbine and a 5 round magazine, that i happened to buy , to take out hunting. i'll have to choose my shots, but 50 yards and under is usually about the range i shoot deer.
i hunt for meat, not some trophy sized animal. i don't shoot fawns or yearlings. i shoot the average to above average deer weight. antler size is for somebody fitter than me. i'm just as happy to get a very fat spike or a 8pt or a doe.
"Russia sucks." ---- Me, US Army (retired) 12B & 51B
Russian Admiral said, after the Moskva sank, "we have the world's worst navy but we aren't as bad as our army".
GA, where I hunt mostly, is pretty liberal with the does. The club where I hunt requires each member to harvest four does per year (10 members) or pay a fine. The land is about 4,000 acres of farm land, cotton and some beans on occasion, about 40% wooded.
GA Regs: 10 antlerless deer and 2 antlered deer. One of the two antlered deer must have a minimum of 4 points, 1 inch or longer, on either antler or a minimum 15-inch outside antler spread to be legal.
Most land in GA is private and/or timber owned and most hunted by clubs with management plans which vary a bit. The main exception is the coastal areas that still dog hunt and it's pretty much if it's brown it's down. Can't tell you the last time I saw a spike. Club rule is 120 BC minimum and second deer must be better. Culls equal any large rack mature deer under 8 pt and racks with no brow tines.
Im curious Why is a large rack buck "better " than a doe or spike or smaller buck? I've hunted places in the past where a 10 point buck wasn't that much bigger pound wise than some 8 pointers, so the "more meat " argument is invalid
I know in Northern Michigan they call those spikes 11 pointers.
We do not shoot them because most are buck fawns by us, nothing wrong with them they just need to grow. We shoot does when we want just meat and need to do so in some areas.
I was surprised to see so many small spikes in Missouri muzzleloader season. Growing fast.
Im curious Why is a large rack buck "better " than a doe or spike or smaller buck? I've hunted places in the past where a 10 point buck wasn't that much bigger pound wise than some 8 pointers, so the "more meat " argument is invalid
I might be misinterpreting here - you’re equating number of points to body weight?
Not at all I've hunted south of San angelo on a ranch where all they had to eat was mesquite beans and cactus. 100-115 pounds was an average mature deer. 8 points maybe 10 inches wide and main beams about like your index finger.
No I was curious about if others thought a big high and wide antlered deer was a "better " deer than a deer with a lesser rack I've shot some people would scoff at because of a smaller rack, but had a good sized body. I shot one a few years back that was barely legal for the country regulations, but it was so heavy I couldn't drag it but about 4 feet and had to cut it up on the ground in place. Many would have considered it an unsuitable deer.
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More should follow your advice.
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