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Here's shots 4, 5, and 6 on the first target. Same POA. ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/7hsBRw7W/149-B441-A-BF73-493-C-AC0-C-C68-F88811-A11.jpg)
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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I’m a bully for asking for receipts?
Again, lol
Sorry to trigger you. 😂😂😂 You can ask all you want, but I’m not asking for a refund so I see no reason to show you any receipts. I’m not going to show you my wife’s lingerie, either, so don’t bother asking. LOL. Don’t play dumb. You love holding hands with your partner in crime and demanding pics to try and gaslight and discredit those you don’t like. It’s not hard to see right through the passive aggression. ^^^The very Definition of passive aggression ^^^^ I’m not looking to argue here, Rick. Your MO to fish for “receipts” is predictable, and I called you on it. You may want to check your dictionary again.
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I was actually referring to last part of your reply. Very ironic!
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Yall are obviously way more knowledgeable about load development than I am, and I agree with what yall strive for on getting a high dollar rifle to shoot. I mean that's what standard you hold a custom rifle to. But what ever happened to shooting 3 or 5 shots at a hundred yards with various components? To me, I think a chronograph is the only way, my opinion. Same speed, same burn, same result. If your not happy with the speed, switch it up. Once all that's obtained at 100, back that up to 300, then 600, then whatever. Shoot at various Temps. Freezing to 100 degrees or so. Your cases and chronograph should tell all. And duh, the size of the group. Just an outsider looking in. By all means keep up the thread. Pretty good read.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I’m a bully for asking for receipts?
Again, lol
Sorry to trigger you. 😂😂😂 You can ask all you want, but I’m not asking for a refund so I see no reason to show you any receipts. I’m not going to show you my wife’s lingerie, either, so don’t bother asking. LOL. Don’t play dumb. You love holding hands with your partner in crime and demanding pics to try and gaslight and discredit those you don’t like. It’s not hard to see right through the passive aggression. ^^^The very Definition of passive aggression ^^^^ The things I like about Jordan's posts are that he's obviously very knowledgeable, willing to share his knowledge withouot blowing his own horn, and I don't think I've ever seen him go after another poster or denigrate another poster unless like here, someone really provokes him. Just that.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: Dec 2022
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I’m a bully for asking for receipts?
Again, lol
Sorry to trigger you. 😂😂😂 You can ask all you want, but I’m not asking for a refund so I see no reason to show you any receipts. I’m not going to show you my wife’s lingerie, either, so don’t bother asking. LOL. Don’t play dumb. You love holding hands with your partner in crime and demanding pics to try and gaslight and discredit those you don’t like. It’s not hard to see right through the passive aggression. ^^^The very Definition of passive aggression ^^^^ The things I like about Jordan's posts are that he's obviously very knowledgeable, willing to share his knowledge withouot blowing his own horn, and I don't think I've ever seen him go after another poster or denigrate another poster unless like here, someone really provokes him. Just that. Pretty much what I gathered.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
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It's entirely possible to have a load that looks great over the chrono that's not good on the target. So no, the chronograph does not tell all.
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Joined: Jun 2011
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
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Yall are obviously way more knowledgeable about load development than I am, and I agree with what yall strive for on getting a high dollar rifle to shoot. I mean that's what standard you hold a custom rifle to. But what ever happened to shooting 3 or 5 shots at a hundred yards with various components? To me, I think a chronograph is the only way, my opinion. Same speed, same burn, same result. If your not happy with the speed, switch it up. Once all that's obtained at 100, back that up to 300, then 600, then whatever. Shoot at various Temps. Freezing to 100 degrees or so. Your cases and chronograph should tell all. And duh, the size of the group. Just an outsider looking in. By all means keep up the thread. Pretty good read. Shooting groups at 100 yards is a way many go through load development. It is the way I first began as well. If your shooting is mostly done at ranges that aren’t considered “long range”, it may be fine. I’m not saying a Good long range load can’t be discovered by shooting at 100 yards, then moving out as you suggest, but sometimes a good 100 yard group and load shows the rifle to be “out of tune” at long range. Generally printing with a lot of vertical stringing. What the Audette method achieves, and it achieves it quickly saving barrel life, components and time, is a load with as little vertical stringing at as possible at long range with the given components and equipment. Since this is the Long Range forum, I wanted to share what has worked well for me sinceI have found no other methods that work as well
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Everything is entirely possible. Winning the lottery is entirely possible. That chronograph will tell you alot, if your load is within 10 fps or whatever, it stands a heck of alot better chance downrange or whatever, than if it's all over the place. What looks good on paper at a certain elevation or temperature today will more than likely change in a different setting tomorrow. But if it's burning the same speed, chances are they will be consistent.
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Joined: Jun 2011
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
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I’m a bully for asking for receipts?
Again, lol
Sorry to trigger you. 😂😂😂 You can ask all you want, but I’m not asking for a refund so I see no reason to show you any receipts. I’m not going to show you my wife’s lingerie, either, so don’t bother asking. LOL. Don’t play dumb. You love holding hands with your partner in crime and demanding pics to try and gaslight and discredit those you don’t like. It’s not hard to see right through the passive aggression. ^^^The very Definition of passive aggression ^^^^ The things I like about Jordan's posts are that he's obviously very knowledgeable, willing to share his knowledge withouot blowing his own horn, and I don't think I've ever seen him go after another poster or denigrate another poster unless like here, someone really provokes him. Just that. Jordan hasn’t shared any knowledge about load development on this forum whatsoever that I have seen. If you think “knowledgeable” is trying to discredit a load development method that has been used successfully for decades based on probability and statistics….
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Joined: Jun 2011
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That chronograph will tell you alot, if your load is within 10 fps or whatever, it stands a heck of alot better chance downrange or whatever, than if it's all over the place. . You may want to watch the video again. That’s what it’s all about; consistent velocities don’t mean as much as holes on paper down range
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Joined: Dec 2022
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Agree with this too. Different strokes for different folks.
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Joined: Jun 2011
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OP
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It's entirely possible to have a load that looks great over the chrono that's not good on the target. So no, the chronograph does not tell all. ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/VNF1XnNP/6E09DEA4-577C-4BED-B05E-324AA9A56A65.gif)
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Joined: Jun 2006
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Jordan hasn’t shared any knowledge about load development on this forum whatsoever that I have seen. If you think “knowledgeable” is trying to discredit a load development method that has been used successfully for decades based on probability and statistics…. I didn't see him try to discredit your pet method. I saw him ask about repeatability, which is basic to probability and statistics.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
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Jordan hasn’t shared any knowledge about load development on this forum whatsoever that I have seen. If you think “knowledgeable” is trying to discredit a load development method that has been used successfully for decades based on probability and statistics…. Sample sizes of three make for very poor probabilities and statistics.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
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I’m a bully for asking for receipts?
Again, lol
Sorry to trigger you. 😂😂😂 You can ask all you want, but I’m not asking for a refund so I see no reason to show you any receipts. I’m not going to show you my wife’s lingerie, either, so don’t bother asking. LOL. Don’t play dumb. You love holding hands with your partner in crime and demanding pics to try and gaslight and discredit those you don’t like. It’s not hard to see right through the passive aggression. ^^^The very Definition of passive aggression ^^^^ The things I like about Jordan's posts are that he's obviously very knowledgeable, willing to share his knowledge withouot blowing his own horn, and I don't think I've ever seen him go after another poster or denigrate another poster unless like here, someone really provokes him. Just that. Jordan hasn’t shared any knowledge about load development on this forum whatsoever that I have seen. If you think “knowledgeable” is trying to discredit a load development method that has been used successfully for decades based on probability and statistics…. I didn't see him try to discredit your pet method. I saw him ask about repeatability, which is basic to probability and statistics. I addressed that earlier. The “repeatability” is the proven load Jordan hasn’t shared any knowledge about load development on this forum whatsoever that I have seen. If you think “knowledgeable” is trying to discredit a load development method that has been used successfully for decades based on probability and statistics…. Sample sizes of three make for very poor probabilities and statistics. See above
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,240 Likes: 14
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
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I addressed that earlier. The “repeatability” is the proven load So, you're concluding that the method finds the absolute best load, and your confirmation of that is comparing that load to itself, over time. And you're calling that statistical analysis. That about sum it up?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Target cameras are handy for this. No need for colored markers or separate bulls.
Politics is War by Other Means
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I was actually referring to last part of your reply. Very ironic! Assertive defence is neither passive nor aggressive. This is where the passive aggression began in this thread: The intersection of "Audette Testing" for load development and statistics is ironic for me. I'm a Creighton Audette fan and chased down whatever of his writings I could find; Rifleman, Precision Shooting etc.
Audette was very well versed in Statistics and wrote an article entitled "It Ain't Necessarily So" where he debunked folks making pronouncements of accuracy based on single groups or 3 shot groups etc. The irony is that he used and wrote about load testing shooting single shots at escalating charge weights (he called it the "20 shot method"). And thought nothing of the statistics of if as others are calling out here. The method just flat out worked for him to find a load that had match winning accuracy.
For those that don't know much about Audette, he was a high level Highpower Competitor, gunsmith, and accuracy critical thinker. He was the Harold Vaughn of his generation (if you haven't heard of Harold Vaughn, that 's a discussion for another time).
Others such as Dan Newberry decided Audette needed to bulk up his statistics by shooting 3 shots at each charge weight in a "round robin" fashion. (google OCW or Optimal Charge Weight to read more). Chris Long put his Engineer's stamp on Newberry's theory with his OBT (Optimal Barrel Time) theory. I personally think they missed the point. The 20 shot method is a great shortcut to getting to an accurate load that is conditions, temperature and charge weight resilient. It wasn't meant to withstand statistical analysis.
Closer to the topic raised by the video; Randolph Constantine (he was an actual bona fide Rocket Scientist) decided he would use a chrono at 100 yards in his version of Audette Load Development and called his twist "Incremental Load Development". I shook my head when I read his article in Precision Shooting for much the same reasons as that video called out. Flat spots in a charge/velocity curve didn't match up to 300 or 600 yard accuracy on paper for me. Nice to see someone on the Long Range Forum who is familiar with the method and Long Range Load Development. Not many are, as you can see. I’m not convinced that’s a realistic assumption. Shooting groups at 100 yards with all load increments where trajectory differences are negligible would reveal that the precision of the various increments is often inconsistent enough so as to be comparable with the dispersion in the trajectory between increments at longer distance. Yes, the signal gets lost in the noise as they say…hence as described by Audette, he shot at 300 yards to boost the signal and shot prone off a front bag, with a scope (even though the end use was irons for competition), during the early morning when the wind was calmest to reduce the noise. Curious what the results of your testing was like? I doubt you’ll get any useful feedback I was happy to discuss the topic based on merit, but you wanted to make it personal.
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OP
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I was actually referring to last part of your reply. Very ironic! Assertive defence is neither passive nor aggressive. This is where the passive aggression began in this thread: The intersection of "Audette Testing" for load development and statistics is ironic for me. I'm a Creighton Audette fan and chased down whatever of his writings I could find; Rifleman, Precision Shooting etc.
Audette was very well versed in Statistics and wrote an article entitled "It Ain't Necessarily So" where he debunked folks making pronouncements of accuracy based on single groups or 3 shot groups etc. The irony is that he used and wrote about load testing shooting single shots at escalating charge weights (he called it the "20 shot method"). And thought nothing of the statistics of if as others are calling out here. The method just flat out worked for him to find a load that had match winning accuracy.
For those that don't know much about Audette, he was a high level Highpower Competitor, gunsmith, and accuracy critical thinker. He was the Harold Vaughn of his generation (if you haven't heard of Harold Vaughn, that 's a discussion for another time).
Others such as Dan Newberry decided Audette needed to bulk up his statistics by shooting 3 shots at each charge weight in a "round robin" fashion. (google OCW or Optimal Charge Weight to read more). Chris Long put his Engineer's stamp on Newberry's theory with his OBT (Optimal Barrel Time) theory. I personally think they missed the point. The 20 shot method is a great shortcut to getting to an accurate load that is conditions, temperature and charge weight resilient. It wasn't meant to withstand statistical analysis.
Closer to the topic raised by the video; Randolph Constantine (he was an actual bona fide Rocket Scientist) decided he would use a chrono at 100 yards in his version of Audette Load Development and called his twist "Incremental Load Development". I shook my head when I read his article in Precision Shooting for much the same reasons as that video called out. Flat spots in a charge/velocity curve didn't match up to 300 or 600 yard accuracy on paper for me. Nice to see someone on the Long Range Forum who is familiar with the method and Long Range Load Development. Not many are, as you can see. I’m not convinced that’s a realistic assumption. Shooting groups at 100 yards with all load increments where trajectory differences are negligible would reveal that the precision of the various increments is often inconsistent enough so as to be comparable with the dispersion in the trajectory between increments at longer distance. Yes, the signal gets lost in the noise as they say…hence as described by Audette, he shot at 300 yards to boost the signal and shot prone off a front bag, with a scope (even though the end use was irons for competition), during the early morning when the wind was calmest to reduce the noise. Curious what the results of your testing was like? I doubt you’ll get any useful feedback I was happy to discuss the topic based on merit, but you wanted to make it personal. THAT was passively aggressive? You’re definitely a snowflake and “Ovary” act!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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