Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Alaska Interesting Sheep Conversation

Thanks, Bob.
Nothing like the sheep mountains...
And sheep meat is something special indeed!

Bringing this old thread back

chasing half the sheep. Could it be because of asleep at the wheel game and fish? its been like this a long time already. But that water is under the bridge so someone has to pay.

Success ratios. Yeah. How hard do residents hunt? How far do they go. How many days do they hunt. Or sleep in etc... Lots hit it really hard, but others, not so much. Yet I fail to see that resident success should be different than non if they apply the same efforts. In fact R hunters have lots more time to get to learn an area. Scout. And so on. The folks I work with and for, yes we guide but we are only out there a few days early like most people, to set up camp and we really have little if any scouting time period. To me, as an R, I think I have an overall advantage over NR hands down. The only difference is if I decide to spend the extra time and money to get into less accessible places. If I don't, then success ratios etc.. are not apples to apples.

Wonder how many NR tags vs R tags are issued? Its said NR kill more than all other NR in all other sheep states. I'm not even sure how that could even but put in as a talking point? Thats not even apples to oranges. Its maybe apples to a hay bale or some such but its not even in the park.

As to full curl, the limit has to be there somewhere somehow. The area we work in always had plenty of older rams left each year because we choose to leave numbers. I'm not sure of the answer. But the decline in sheep in our area is as bad as anywhere else and you can't blame it on anything much but nature. The sheep area is private land and limited tags. Yet even with leaving plenty age class sheep nature still hit.

Any guide worth their license may shoot a sheep. One. Maybe two. they would not hunt sheep on their own because its like killing your own pay. Can't see early resident opening having an effect much. Yet if it gave residents an earlier shot at sheep, where where they when it opened evenly? And if it actually helped, then the success ratio stays the same, it only swings from R to NR.

Upping the cost of a NR tag won't effect a thing unless its run up some un workable figure. Hunts going up to 40K plus doubling the cost of a tag won't do a thing.

Sure wish that it would have been addressed long ago, proactive. Slow mild adjustments. Than reactive the sky is falling. But that seems to be typical to game and fish at times.

Really tough issue going on. Basically its been for years now there are too many people on the planet period.
Game has always had up and down cycles yet its been a non issue to swing the harvests like that. I don't know that it would be easy to adjust either.

I do know, since we want to blame NR, that in years of moose hunting I've not talked to a single NR moose hunter in our area that I can recall. All R. And all brining more and more R to a limited resource.

Likely the best thing is going to be make all tags draw tags. Go to preference points so people can plan their lives. And limit tags on both ends period.

I'm not sure about the commercial vs non commercial analogy. Sport fishing guides take their clients closer to the fish. Can't always make them bite. Yet if R wanted to do the same thing they can hire a guide or buy a boat and put in the effort.

The problem there is not everyone has same amount of money. So if you say did fishing the same as the talk of hunting. Limit the number of NR access, would R cover that loss of numbers up in a heartbeat. Going to buy a boat. Insurance. Learn to drive and repair the boat. Learn to read the water and how to navigate it. Heck have a coast guard license or some form of learning rules of the road so to speak. I prefer not to be on the water on holidays when all the ones that have no clue are driving. From that aspect the R folks tend to ruin the fishing on those weekends. Create the wrecks and getting stuck. And us having to do boat rescues and such.

And while I'm thinking out loud. Whats the success ratio sheep hunting in public access walk in, vs fly in remote? How many R would spend the money to fly in remote? I know that if I ever decide I want to harvest instead of guide I'll fly in as remote as I can and expend a LOT of money getting there, for the quality. Kind of like NR. Rather than beat the woods with the walk in and wheeler crowds and contribute to over harvesting that bunch ends up doing by default if no other way.

Guess we will find some answers March onward. Board of game will get their chance. Then the biologists will use their tools later if they feel the need.

The adjustment all across the board is a long time coming. The guides have been doing their part to adjust the harvest to the available game for years. Its high time its an all across the board thing.

Jesus. I did not notice the date. 2014. Interesting. In the years that followed we had some of the best sheep years around in our area. But have had to cut clients back severely in the last few years.

I could omit my comments, but IMHO, my current comments are just that. Current. Will be interesting to see what happens in March in reaction to the statewide declines due to weather.

Even more so I'm still at a total loss of the decline of the fishery inland for everything. Not just migrating salmon. I still say too many people using a resource. Even catch and release you eventually kill the fish or make them feed/bite at night etc....The fish decline at least in everything but sockeye, is eye-opening to say the least. And while it may be only nature and not man made, it certainly needs to be addressed.

Jeff, lots of evidence supports eliminating the full curl rule. Many would be happy with 3/4 curls. It is only done to limit take which increases opportunity. The herd relies on the big old sheep to keep them alive in bad weather. The herd has a lot invested in big rams.

Look at the open drawing areas that have disappeared since this thread in 2014! Lots of changes in sheep numbers and pressure, and less opportunity.

The area I used to hunt Unit 13 easily see 100 sheep till about 98, in the first 5 miles off a 4 wheeler now lucky to see just a few and no legals, granted easy access area.

The remaining full curl sheep in the State are pursued pretty hard, lots of factors to their decline, still sad to see.

I think I'm past sheep hunting, but damn, it's fun! And good eating. I will respectfully disagree with Art about which is better eating, sheep (6 for me) or caribou (75+) , but we are all (well- most of us) friends, right?

I have mixed feelings about a point system, not really liking it, but also not liking that I applied for a bison permit for 40 years without getting one, before just saying the hell with it. In fact, I quit applying for any permits a couple years back. I'm now retired and have more time for "general" hunting, and can travel for it.

I've never been a trophy hunter, being in it for the hunt and the meat only.

I read the whole thing, and it is indeed complex. I have to agree, targeting only the best, just maturing animals in a hard hunted area will eventually lead to degradation in the genetics, and probably the survival rate of the younger, shouldn't-yet-be-breeding animals if too many older, fully mature/experienced ones are taken. Just because you CAN fuq, doesn't mean you should be....

It may be that over-all state management should have to be "micromanaged" per area; the smaller or accessible areas, with more/different intensive and restrictive means according to the area's needs to maintain quality sustainability and genetics. The hard hit areas, for example, may need to have a more intricate system - say registration or permit, plus harvest cap, plus slots? ), ensuring some animals- including some of the best (again, slot limits AND harvest cap per each?) live to old(er) age, to become fully mature, breeding and regulating stock - say age 10 for sheep, and the same ( or 10/11, whatever) for moose, etc. Atighter more restyrictive drawing permit system could accomplish this, I suppose, but of necessity further limit hunting opportunity. Just a thought....

More relaxed regulations for remote, less impacted areas where enough mature animals can survive to breed. Pretty night-parish regs, to be sure, but what choice? What we have now is resulting in degredation of many stocks. Face it- "game management" is almost entirely people control, with the possible exception of predator management - which is again mostly people management and what are we "allowed" to do? (When I came to Alaska in 1968, the entire statewide regulations were like- 11 pages, with huge GMAs, most of them in sync. with more generous seasons and often bag limits than now), it

Such would probably require more extensive monitoring & $ than is currently being spent, both in the field and of the harvest, with consequences for those outside CLEAR parameters. A field judging "mistake" should not be a get-off-free thing due to failure to prosecute, due differences in opinion by "judges"- whether they be biologists, troopers, or bench. Assigned slot harvest (registration and/or permit, as well as general) and caps within those could alleviate some of this problem, perhaps?

I believe # of guides should be limited (yeah, I know), both statewide and per area, as well as being "stuck" in the same area or areas, and not being able to jump around (unless there is an opening elsewhere). This would encourage better conservation of the resource, rather than jumping to another area after "their" area(s) has been over hunted/harvested. I always did think being able to "pick" up to 3 areas to exploit for a time, then going to others was a mistake.

Caveat- I am way less knowledgable about guiding regs than I might be, so any error or misconception in my above is due to ignorance... Don't be mean - I'm sensitive.

Read Wayne Heimers book. It's been out for about a month. Talk to unit 20 bio, Tony Hollis. Talk to Joe Want.
Full curl rule leaves plenty of mature rams in the field.Again, ask Tony Hollis.
The problems effecting sheep number are weather related. Changing hunting Regs won't change the weather.
Leaving more mature rams in the field won't change the weather.
Non residents provide the majority of F&G funding thru the 3 to 1 P R funding formula. If you want less NR then expect to pony up more of your own money for a sheep tag.

Interesting topic and discussion. How are sheep populations doing in areas not opened to hunting, like Denali or ANWR?

The sheep numbers are down in Denali Park. They got hit a little in South Wrangells but are pretty stable. North Wrangells has seen a huge increase in hunting traffic and structural numbers are down. However, if you go with Hank Flatow up there I am going to double down that you will be happy. Talkeetnas are way down except that really rugged part on Western edge where they are in the cliffy brushy gullies and they are stable there. Sheep are stable to increasing in Eastern Chugach TCUA and DS165 which is the best trophy unit in the state. Some big crankers out of 160 where it is any ram so maybe something behind going that way for a couple of units on a rotational basis. DCUA is dead zone for two reasons and one is talked about with bad weather but the other isn't. There is a lot of Russian Delta Sheep Poaching going on and they take ewes and lambs so it is screwing up that resource. I think that they take 4wheelers up TMA and poach that Eastern side of it too. That is why it went from being shaky to being almost dead zone like it is now with absence of all age classes. They are also whacking at the MacComb Caribou herd with their "special" winter hunt. Enforcement should create special unit because if they are left to go they will take the entire bison herd down to small numbers. ANWR is stable or increasing both shelf and north side. Wright's air has lottery now for booking hunts. I don't even know what it would cost to get out to Kong or Hulu but I can imagine that it is well north of 6K for charter. Central Alaska Range is barely hanging on and guides are limiting sheep hunts but with sheep hunt inflation it is very hard to hold back. The traditional areas are fought over like baltic states. I have heard of outfitters sending their packers right up to the edge of their areas and camping at places where crews push in. The high rates of guided hunter success come from a very brutal discussion that won't be easy for guides and air services to to deal with. Most of the very best areas where guides use charters to get in the charters and transporters have agreements with the guides not to take hunters to traditional spots. You can't get Wrights to take you up to upper Wood Canyon or Wrangell Mt. Air to fly you into McColl Ridge. It is this way all over the state. There are places Mike Meekin or Wiederkehr Air Inc that won't take you to spots either. I don't what you could do about that but that is what it is.

I would like to propose that the hunters that harvest 9-13 year old dinks( genetically inferior sheep ) should get double lot chances in the following year lottery. There are dinks in almost every range and these guys are known as guide sheep in Canada. People will take a 5 year old ram that has 41 inch horns and is full curn in the Wrangells or in TMA but let this silly billy Hunter biden jokers live and reproduce. It might sound cruel but get rid of the jokers and give people an incentive to get them.

I also wonder if there are a lot of "bush" guides who are guiding without professional licenses and are taking relatives (wink wink) into different areas and being succesful at that. I think that APHA is an amazing outfit but I think that a couple like Phil S. and maybe Jerry J. should get paid by the state to be special wildlife agents like Samo White of old. I think that they would bust a lot of shady operators. The "bush" operators are the same guys that plug their own sheep with counterfeit plugs.

"I would like to propose that the hunters that harvest 9-13 year old dinks( genetically inferior sheep ) should get double lot chances in the following year lottery. There are dinks in almost every range and these guys are known as guide sheep in Canada. People will take a 5 year old ram that has 41 inch horns and is full curn in the Wrangells or in TMA but let this silly billy Hunter biden jokers live and reproduce. It might sound cruel but get rid of the jokers and give people an incentive to get them."

Not a bad Idea, I think. I - mostly inadvertantly - did my part with the last sheep I took. A band of 7, coming up-slope to me at 50 yards. At any moment I was going to be made, sitting out there all alone, exposed on that talus. I took the first clear shot I had, on the third best one, as he came clear of the group. Unsyemmetrical, thin horns, smallish body, liver shot through with flukes.

It wasn't exactly planned that way, but I'm more than happy he was the one I took. I like to think that given more of a choice, I'd have taken him anyway. It is not the only cull animal I've taken by chance, but I'm happy for every one of them. Makes me feel good removing an animal like that.

(Beat chest here.... . )

Las, I'm with you on the sheep meat. I prefer it to all else.

I left the state in 2006, didn't realize how the human over population was affecting the game. Well, I was afraid it would but hadn't seen anything really on what was actually happening. That said, in 1973 I took a couple of horses up the Yannert River for John Thomas, who had a guiding business up there. We were up in the alpine when we got to a big slide area I wasn't going to take the horses across. It was starting to get dark so we back tracked a quarter mile or so and went down to the river. We got there in the dark and the assistant guide with me thought we were close to camp. As we were stumbling around we smelled smoke and started yelling. A light came on up in the trees. It was a one-man sheep camp, the guy had been coming there for years. We set up a tent & he invited us to dinner, my one and only meal of sheep backstrap. My mouth still waters when I think of it! Also the first time I saw a real Mannlicher rifle, a .30-06.

We eventually made it to Thomas' camp which was another half day's ride up the valley. I was not impressed but that's another story.

Thanks for the chance to reminisce!

I"m fine with a 3/4 rule. Would change very little for us. We keep old rams around so there are breeders. Never shooting anywhere near what we could. Just the winters wiped out a LOT of sheep a few years in a row. Even the big old ones. The middle ones. The young. Etc.... something we control by harvest numbers in the end regardless of fish and game. Which is sad. We police our own but have to pay the price possibly and be in jail with all the rest so to speak...

I am not a terribly experienced sheep hunter by any stretch, but the meat off the few dalls I have had were bar none, the best.

Tenderness and flavor even from 10+ year old rams has been incredible.

Totally agree. Best wild game I've ever had. Granted I"ve never had and never will have African game but of the US game dall wins hands down.

You sheep guys only prefer sheep cuz you haven't had Musk Ox!!

Yep Dall meat is very tasty. The only other that I would say is as good is Sitka Blacktail from up in the alpine

Musk ox on a traeger. My oh My.

This is a neat thread, everything still relative nearly a decade later.
Lots of interesting opinions and tidbits coming from different perspectives. Gosh dang though; those two fellas going at regarding the sheep horns..! Whewee that got intense !