Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Savage Pistol Model 1907 R&D?

I was thinking the same thing. Like found on military 1911s.

LHS

I will be waiting for a range test report. Since these are a delayed blow-back and do not positively lock up, I've wondered if with a longer barrel the action will open before the bullet exits causing more gas to escape in and through the action. The 45's opened a little too soon with their standard length barrel. Maybe with the .32 & .380 the torque from the bullets on the rifling was enough to slow the action to avoid this.
.forgottenweapons/savageflash
forgottenweapons/savage-45

Good point and I'm confident Searle & Co. were conscious of these relationships from the drafting board thru product release.
Basically, the time for the projectile to exit the barrel as compared to the time for the barrel to rotate and eject a shell had better be less that 1:1.
I understand the math, but have no idea how one would measure or verify such a thing.

This video demonstrate Savage pistol operation.

[quote=Southern_WI_Savage]First acquisition of 2023 is a good one.

I would be interested in hearing from the "pistol guys".
Ever seen the anchor stamp??





Southern, you got my first partial reply in that recent e-mail. When I eventually get everything pulled together, I will share here also.


Generally for the group;

Definitely not 350 Folks before are correct, while there is actually a .32 slide variation that falls in between Carr's 2 and 3, frame/slide put this at 1917... providing the slide is not re-engineered to an older frame. Would need to do some side-by-side comparisons.

There are a number of long barrels, I have identified at least 5, maybe 6 with serials - trying to dig up my data and pictures I have tracked or logged over the decades. At least two showed CA Nelson signing them out, his first 43357 (Carr pg 107) and more recently shown in Bailey's book/collection. Coincidence that if you obliterate/damage the first and last numbers on Nelson's .32 43357, you'd have 335 ? Who knows?


The extensions are done by cutting another slide and attaching, that way the first slide acts as the main spring retainer. At least one uses a cut down spring similar to the .380.

NO anchors on Savage, though there is a rumor. Maybe it was this one. The only multiple anchors stamps similar I have seen are the inspector ones on the Remington 51s.

What is the scoop on that steel grip?

Thanks for the info Dave.
When I finally have it in hand I'll probably re-invent the wheel, that is disassemble, inspect, etc. I'll certainly understand it better and as you say "who knows?" what may appear.

Anchor stamp? Rem 51's were produced about the same time 1917/1918. Illion is "just down the road from Utica" per Phyllis Gough who's father William H. Gough travelled that route frequently.
Possibly a connection between companies via personnel and/or stamp. ?? Did stamps travel with the inspector/person on occasion?

Steel grip? Sorry I just sniped that pic quickly from the internet. Do you collect steel grip data? I could add a few.

Saw this today..

Brower's book, page 133, under Portuguese Military Contract Pistols.

So that clears up... well... nothing. But sounds like he saw a couple with anchors, and explains the Portugal comment on the card.

Bear in mind that Bailey had possessed this pistol for ~20 years prior to his book so he had plenty of time to consider and explore different theories regarding its origin based on the parts used and soliciting opinions from others. All good.

I did a quick dive yesterday, disassembly, compare to other pistols, etc.
Summary;
The pistol is operational. Will I fire it? Ehhh...possibly??
As 1907Savage pointed out, throw the "350" serial number out the window. Know idea where that came from, but is only a distraction.
The frame, slide and breech block all appear to be from same/similar time period (~1915-17).
The frame has ~0.010" shaved off of both sides. This would remove the fire/safe & SAVAGE stamps and not sure if other mechanical reason associated, but doesn't appear so.
The barrel/chamber is a custom part to add length.
The magazine release lever is a custom part. Not exactly like a #1 or #2 lever. Not sure why it was used as it appears a type 2 release lever would work fine.
The slide is interesting and difficult to see inside. It appears to have been weld/extended, inside milled to smooth over weld bead and a sleeve inserted to provide a spring stop.

I'll continue this investigation and post more, pics, etc. later on.

I can’t see anybody thinking this gun was a Portuguese military pistol, so I’d think he’d seen at least one other normal type with it.

After a quick search it turns out there are a number of known "long" barrel pistols. Likely more exist so I'll keep looking.
And this is just .32 & .380. Does not include .22, .25, .38 or .45 experimental pistols.
Note: Arthur Savage was still working on pistol patients during this time in CA. Must have been a competitive time period among manufacturers.

Upon further review #350 IS NOT .32/7.65 as the slide indicates.
The barrel I.D. measures ~.280/7mm. So the notion to shoot will have to wait.
The barrel is finished with rifling, but no other markings except for an anchor stamp.
Ive "heard" that Bailey mentioned Savage experimented with other calibers for other governments.

Does anyone have any ideas for center fire cartridges, circa 1915, police or otherwise?

Time for a chamber cast, I'm thinking... anything else will just be guesswork.

Agreed.
Just looking for input from others with cartridge knowledge that may be beneficial and interesting.

The only thing Google could find is the 7mm Penna?

Good luck!

It's probably in here somewhere.

pistol cartridges

The only auto round I see with a .280" bullet is the 7mm Nambu. The next bullet dia. range is .307".

I made wax casts of #350 (L) & @180154 (R) (equivalent variation)

The numbers;



The casts.
Each has 6 grooves although #350 is lighter.
What does a necked down .32acp give you?

Mike,
Due to the fact that this barrel appears very deliberate your theory is plausible.
So far I have not been able to locate a potential match, but I'm not much of a ballistic expert either.
It seems that if Savage was targeting a foreign market they would utilize an existing cartridge vs. create something new that was not currently being produced.
With that in mind, are there any possibilities that rise to the surface that you are aware of?

Granted, my wax cast and measurement technique is close but not perfect.
What I measure for what I'm calling an experimental round is;
Case O.D. - 0.33 (same as .32)
Shoulder O.D. - 0.30
barrel I.D. - 0.275

Case O.A.L. - 0.80
Case to shoulder - 0.63 (same as .32)

Southern,

Have been jumping in and out on this thread. Very interesting about the wax results.

Rick makes an interesting statement about the Nambu. The 7x22mm for the Baby Nambu manufactured 1907 to 1923.
https://www.rccbrass.com/7mm-baby-nambu/;

Case type Bottleneck rimless
Bullet diameter 7.08 mm (0.279 in)
Neck diameter 7.64 mm (0.301 in)
Shoulder diameter 8.62 mm (0.339 in)
Base diameter 8.91 mm (0.351 in)
Rim diameter 9.11 mm (0.359 in)
Rim thickness 0.98 mm (0.039 in)
Case length 19.80 mm (0.780 in)
Overall length 26.80 mm (1.055 in)

In pursuing more data on the A-Suffix "Experimentals", I too looked to see what other standard cartridge was out there and available in WWI outside the German influence. It was not a time the engaged countries were wanting lengthy R&D, particularly France. I keep coming back to 7.65mm for France. By the time Savage arrived France was well on its way into the orders for eventually 500,000 to 700,000? 7.65 Ruby pistols . Portuguese were cutoff from their traditional Lugers and Mausers and identified the 7.65mm as a readily available cartridge. I am pretty convinced now (and working on the documentation) that the A pistols had nothing to do with the French for a number of reasons. The prevalent published theory for France wanting 50 as a prototype for lanyards makes no sense. The French were already putting the "hourglass" lanyards on the first two shipments. Every "A" pistol to date has a lanyard ring or hole for one, even the frames.

By the time the Portuguese and Savage came together, earlier than what is believed, the M1907-13-3 with lanyard was a done deal. Wanting a different caliber does make sense if they were looking for something like their 1908 Lugers in 7.65 Parabellum, but too big for your measurements. I would see some serious rework on magazines as well. Documentation shows a large number of the A pistols/frames were bought as surplus from Portugal when they decided in early 1960s the cost to refurbish their Savage pistols was too much.

Keep digging ! Looks like I will be wax-casting my two A pistols, I may need some tips.

Agree.
The 7mm Nambu looks like the dimensions are correct for this pistol. Nothing else I've seen is even close.

Savage1907, appreciate the context information. That's important in order to rule in, or rule out other metrics/factors potentially involved.

I'll either get some snap caps, brass or both, take a closer look and see what happens.

So today,... it appears this is the only known Savage Model 1907 7mm Nambu.

I know of at least 2 guys now who should probably consider a wax cast of their pistols.

When I measured ~.275 barrel I.D. expecting .318, that was the first flag.