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Originally Posted by Jevyod
Also, the fact that the fit was "less tight" as I screwed the sizing die in farther...does that not mean it is a tight headspace issue?

That was my thoughts exactly! Personally I would set my shell holder on a piece of flat sand paper and hone 2 thou off the face of it being careful to measure with a set of calipers as I go to ensure squareness. I've done it before, its pretty easy. If the brass has been fired more than 3 times you could also anneal your brass and likely solve the problem since the shoulder would not spring back so much


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How are you measuring what's actually happening as you're screwing the die down, shortening shell holder, etc, etc?


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I am not, that is why I am asking. I don't have tools to measure actual headspace. I am going off of several things here, first, like I mentioned before I am assuming that since the bolt closes easier as I screw the die in further, something is moving the right direction. Also I took a sized case back to my gunsmith ( along with the gun) and he pulled the firing pin and chambered the round. He said the headspace was slightly tight, but in his opinion it was actually about perfect. He didn't use any case gauges etc to check. I also has him run his 30-06 go no go gauges in the chamber, and the 1 barely made contact. All that to say, I probably know just enough about headspace to be dangerous.

I want to be sensible Handloader, but not sure where else to go. I don't know anyone locally that could help me figure it out, else I would get some help.


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First off...good for you for having it checked. smile

At this point, I'd suggest firing a couple rounds and then using those fired cases to properly set up your dies for the amount of shoulder push back.

If you have a good dial caliper, I'd be happy to provide you with a little gauge I make to check the amount of shoulder 'bump'.

Good shootin'. -Al


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For [bleep], measure the diameter of the case body just behind the shoulder. I had a rifle a couple years ago that was not headspacing on the shoulder, it was headspacing on the body taper because the chamber body diameter was too small. By the time the case body was squeezed down enough to chamber with a reasonable amount of force (more than I liked but not enough to pry the handle off the bolt), the distance from bolt face to shoulder was wildly excessive. It may not be relevant .. but it might be.


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Have wrestled with this problem many times over the years--and not just with handloads.

Once owned a Remington 700 .300 Winchester Magnum that wouldn't chamber even factory ammo easily--and some rounds not at all, including Remington. Eventually ended up lapping the locking lugs enough to solve the problem.

Somebody mentioned this earlier, but "painting" a case with a Magic Marker and then chambering (or attempting to chamber) the round will often reveal the problem area.

Have also more than occasionally encountered FL loading dies that did NOT match up well with the rifle's chamber....


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Piling on - great earlier suggestion about using a 45 ACP die to reduce the diameter of the cases base enough to determine if that's the problem, but keep in mind that, just like squeezing a tube of toothpaste, narrowing the base of the case that little bit is going to push the shoulder forward. You might need to run the case back into a FL die to fix the shoulder after you use a 45 ACP die to fix the base. Yeah...it shouldn't be that hard.
So...

And the answer to the question - "how does new virgin brass chamber" would be really good to know at this point. No need to hunt up 338-06, just a factory 30-06 round or new empty case would do. If it chambers fine, then neck up that new case in your 338-06 die and see if it still does.

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Originally Posted by Jevyod
I recently acquired a 338-06 and started working on running some Nosler 30-06 brass through my Lee 338-06 sizing die. I adjusted the die down until it made contact with the shell holder and ran a piece of brass through. Loaded the empty brass into the chamber, and the bolt had to be forced closed. Hmm, need more shoulder setback. I ended up adjusting the die down until it cammed over pretty hard. Sized the same piece of brass and tried chambering again. Better, but I can still feel a bit of resistance when I close the bolt. Tried switching from my RCBS shell holder to the Lee. Same thing. Is there any reason not to shoot as it is? I am sure it won't stick in the chamber so hard I can't open the bolt, nowhere near that tight.

Will I run into pressure quicker if I shoot as sized now? Or would you just shoot it as is? I wonder if the chamber was cut on the tight side, and if so, makes me curious to whether it was on purpose. It is a BRNO Mauser with an aftermarket barrel, my gunsmith said if he had to guess he would guess a Douglas barrel.

My understanding is I could solve the problem by getting a machinist to grind .008-.010 off the surface of my shell holder, and I am not opposed to going that route. There is a good machinist just down the road from my place, I am sure he would do it for me.
What kind of rifle is it? I had a problem with a hard bolt closure on a Remington XP-100 R only to find out that the extractor was causing all of my problems.

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It is a BRNO Mauser with an aftermarket barrel. Really wish I knew who did the work!


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Sounds like a go / no go gauge set might be in order.


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Here be dragons ...
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Originally Posted by T_O_M
Sounds like a go / no go gauge set might be in order.
My gunsmith checked it out with his, and he said it looks fine


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[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
So I went more in depth here. I tried some once fire RP brass. Before sizing, it chambered fine, I couldn't feel resistance. After sizing, the bolt definitely closed with more pressure. Not that bad, but definitely there. I colored that same case with a marker, and it is hard to see but there appears to be a ring right at the neck/shoulder junction. I measured the rest of the case, right below the shoulder/body junction, midway down the case, and at the bottom. All those measurements were within .001 of an unsized case. So what can I learn based off of these further developments? Need some wiser heads helping me out here. Thanks!


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Expander ball pulling shoulder when ball retracted from case? Are you lubing inside case neck?


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I am trying to angle Hornady one shot inside the mouths, but apparently not enough! So what about the 95 pcs Nosler brass I sized already? They will prob have way to much headspace?!


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Originally Posted by Jevyod
I am trying to angle Hornady one shot inside the mouths, but apparently not enough! So what about the 95 pcs Nosler brass I sized already? They will prob have way to much headspace?!


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For FL sizing dies that have an expander ball I lube inside necks. I use an appropriate size bore mop with lube applied to mop. Since I'm an old fud I still use RCBS lube. You could apply your One Shot to bore mop.

When inserting mop into case neck I try to ensure I get a good dose of lube at inside shoulder/case neck junction. This is where expander ball engages neck first, so most important imo.

Some brass will develop a doughnut for lack of a better description at the shoulder/neck junction due to brass flowing here during the case firing. This brass flow is why cases need to be trimmed as needed due to aol increases.

Your cases may not have this doughnut. Probably not, dunno. However, doughnuts do add additional resistance when retracting, pulling expander ball out of case potentially moving shoulder/neck junction to where case seems to have headspace changed. Result might be the shiny ring displayed as on case in your photo.

If you have a fired case that bolt closes ok on, remove the expander ball from your FL die and size case. Then see if sized case <that expander ball has not been pulled through neck> chambers and bolt closes ok.

Please post results if you do this.


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It appears to also have a contact line about 2/3rds the way down the shoulder? Tough to tell from the pic but there may be some taper above the neck/shoulder contact point. Could be a bit of upper shoulder, could be a thickened lower case neck (since the lower is what was once shoulder prior to being necked up)...hard to say. It might just need she shoulder pushed back a couple thou., too. At this point, it's hard to phone in the answer.

Remove the primer and with a caliper and and a cartridge gauge, measure it. Then tweak the die adjustment a small bit and remeasure. It might get longer before the case shoulder firmly contacts the shoulder area of the die and gets shorter. Go slow, and measure each you adjust the die.

Good shootin' -Al


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Originally Posted by Mr_TooDogs
For FL sizing dies that have an expander ball I lube inside necks. I use an appropriate size bore mop with lube applied to mop. Since I'm an old fud I still use RCBS lube. You could apply your One Shot to bore mop.

When inserting mop into case neck I try to ensure I get a good dose of lube at inside shoulder/case neck junction. This is where expander ball engages neck first, so most important imo.

Some brass will develop a doughnut for lack of a better description at the shoulder/neck junction due to brass flowing here during the case firing. This brass flow is why cases need to be trimmed as needed due to aol increases.

Your cases may not have this doughnut. Probably not, dunno. However, doughnuts do add additional resistance when retracting, pulling expander ball out of case potentially moving shoulder/neck junction to where case seems to have headspace changed. Result might be the shiny ring displayed as on case in your photo.

If you have a fired case that bolt closes ok on, remove the expander ball from your FL die and size case. Then see if sized case <that expander ball has not been pulled through neck> chambers and bolt closes ok.

Please post results if you do this.

Did it this morning. Took an unsized RP piece of brass, it chambered fine. Ran it through the sizing die ( with the shell holder adjusted to just cam over a tiny bit) and chambered again. Again it chambered with no resistance.


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Originally Posted by Al_Nyhus
It appears to also have a contact line about 2/3rds the way down the shoulder? Tough to tell from the pic but there may be some taper above the neck/shoulder contact point. Could be a bit of upper shoulder, could be a thickened lower case neck (since the lower is what was once shoulder prior to being necked up)...hard to say. It might just need she shoulder pushed back a couple thou., too. At this point, it's hard to phone in the answer.

Remove the primer and with a caliper and and a head space gauge, measure it. Then tweak the die adjustment a small bit and remeasure. It might get longer before the case shoulder firmly contacts the shoulder area of the die and gets shorter. Go slow, and measure each you adjust the die.

Good shootin' -Al

I looked at that brass again this morning, and could not see the line with the naked eye. Doesn't mean it isn't there, I do know the bright flash can really make things look worse than they are. If I remember right when I was coloring with the sharpie, some of the shoulder I colored horizontal instead of vertical like the rest. Maybe just how I colored it?


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I also took a case that was fired in my 30-06, and tried to chamber it. It didn't chamber at all. Ran it through the die with the expander ball removed and chambered again. Again it chambered with zero resistance. So it seems like at this point we can firmly rule out a headspace problem? I will try lubing the inside case neck with some rcbs lube I still have left, and see what happens when I neck it up again.


......the occasional hunter wielding a hopelessly inaccurate rifle, living by the fantastical rule that this cartridge can deliver the goods, regardless of shot placement or rifle accuracy. The correct term for this is minute of ego.
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