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Educate me.




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I see a late WWI high number Springfield in a later type C stock which could stand some TLC. Looks like a beaver chewed on the bolt handle. Is the rest of the stock intact? How's the bore? Good bones there at any rate!

For the life of me I can't figure out what that contrivance is perched on the front of the receiver ring.

Also just noticed that the bolt is a WWII 03A3 one. You can tell by the uncontoured square safety lug.

A few more after initial tear down












-Jake

That's a scope base that didn't require drilling.

Bolt handle was chewed on to make it clear the scope I believe.

Better picture in the most recent post. I pulled the scope and base off already.. thankfully the receiver wasn't drilled. But I can't figure out how to get that ring off yet......

-Jake

The stock is in great shape.

Not original though I'm guessing?




Dad holding it

Serial number chart I found dated it to 1918.
Is this safe with modern '06 loads?

-Jake

Yes safe, if headspace is ok. Non original bolt, so it's worth checking that. Revised stock ID: it's not a C stock, it's what's called a "scant grip stock". WWII era workaround when they had tons of straight grip stock blanks and elected to run them through the C stock pantographs rather than not use them at all.

Still a cool rifle. Shoot the hell out of it (if bore is up to snuff).

One of us will smack some doe with it at least next year hopefully.

Pretty neat old rifle. Got it all cleaned up and back together

-Jake

There is a lot of potential in that rifle. It looks like you rescued it just in the nick of time. I wonder how many years that thing has sat in somebody's closet ?

kwg

I'm hoping it'll shoot. Barrel looks good. I think it will.

I'll give it a try tomorrow. Not planning on changing anything with it. Just hunting it occasionally and pulling out for fun.

We were buying a mig welder and some tools off a guy.

Asked if he had any guns. He came out with that and said he'd give it to us for what he had in it. Said he'd never even shot it but I didn't think to ask what year he got it. I thought I knew what it was but all the numbers were covered by the scope base. So I was hoping I was right.

All in I have $200 in that rifle, maybe $250.

Hard to break it up as I bought allot of stuff for a lump price.


Missed out on a four wheeler and zero turn I was hoping was still there though. Marlin 39 there too but it was already sold.

-Jake

Shooting high.

Am I missing something on adjusting these sights?

Grr. Got about twenty rds through it.

About every three shots or so it loses the bottom metal.

Shoots a good group. But about 10" high at 100.

Was able to reliably hit the 8" gong by holding half a gong low. Certainly can kill deer with it. But would like to get it actually sighted in at 100.

And have to figure out that bottom metal.

-Jake

It was pretty gunked up in that latch. I'll shoot it again tomorrow and see if it holds.

-Jake

Have you tried flipping the sight up and use the receiver sight. Should be an aperture below the battle sight

If you are using the battle sight you will find it shoots rather high at 100 yards as it is set for a 500-550 yard zero if I remember correctly. This is with a 150 gr bullet at 2700-2800 fps if I believe. With modern ammo it might be a little different as the 150 gr bullets generally travel a bit faster.

One could substitute a taller front sight to bring the point of aim closer to center on the target. I eventually did this with my 1917 though the ladder sight adjusted down enough to put POA about 3" high at 100 yards. I also found factory Reminton 220 gr round nose bullets to print similarly with the original battle sight.

Flip the sight ladder up and use the aperture on the slide, set at 200 yards, and go from there.

You called it gunked up, I'd bet that is GI cosmoline. What say Gnoahhh?..mb

Yeah, looks like cosmoline.

Out of curiosity what's the barrel date?

Check eBay - there’s a vendor on there with repro 1903 front sights in different heights. His are inexpensive - and probably not as hardened as a milsurp blade. You can buy a hardened target one when you get the height needed figured out.

It’s pretty common to swap the front sight out for a taller one to bring the battle zero down.

But, if you do that you disturb the utility of the sight ladder. The distance markings, while not necessarily exact (except they're pretty close with GI Ball-equivelant ammo) will have to be recalculated if a tall front sight is employed - all for the sake of bettering the utility of the battle sight, and then you're locked in at a single zero.

I say this based on my preference for the peep hole on the slide. Everyone's eyes are different and in my case I can actually use the peep so I eschew the use of the battle sight except for "rough and tumble plinking" where fine accuracy isn't called for.

Some guys open up the diameter of the peep hole and employ a Marine Corps wider (1/10th inch) standard height front sight blade so as not to have to resort to the battle sight if they can't see through the original peep hole.

Another solution is to handload some reduced loads. I find the battle sight with standard front sight works to put 1500-1600fps cast* loads onto beer cans at 100 yards. But if I want to hit clay targets/cans/steel at 200 yards or farther I'm back to using the sight ladder anyway.

*And jacketed. Reduced loads can be built as easily with jacketed as cast.

I did not see markings. I can make out an "06" near the muzzle.

Where should I look for a date stamp

-Jake

The peep, lowered all the way down, is about 6" high at 100.

I can't see myself using the flip up sight. I'm a hunter and that's what it'll be used for. That peep is so tiny it'd be tough for me to use in the thick stuff I hunt.

But I think I can get proficient 0-200 using the open sight. Just need to get used to it.

I'll also take a look at the higher front sights.

I'm primarily a still hunter in the PA hardwood's. So quick shooting is usually a must.

I've got a krag that hits high and I've taken several deer with it. Just have to adjust.

-Jake

First- thanks to everyone for the info and help so far. Appreciated.

What was the reasoning for this? I would think a 100 or 200 yard zero would be far more useful and then use the flip up sight for longer.

I've got a krag that shoots high as well.

I've got a nagant that shoots right on at 100. And that seems to make more sense to me.

Was there really a need for regular 500 yard shots that would be regular enough to justify having that as your zero?



-Jake

Date stamp is on top of the barrel behind the front sight. Month followed by year, example: "10-24".

Huh. With the slide all the way down I'm always close to zero at 100, but then again that's with Ball M2 equivalent loads. Lighter, heavier bullets and/or modern factory loads will skew that.

Reason for 500 yard battle sight: consider military tactics at the time. Volley fire on massed groups of enemy infantry in open country was how the brass hats reckoned it would be done. (Nonsense of course.) It was also considered, so I'm told, that theoretically holding on an enemy's waist would guarantee a body hit out as far as a guy could reliably see - up close and you hit him high center mass, at 500 yards you gut shot him. Oh well, who really knows? It is the foundation though of officers/sergeants yelling at their men to "hold low".

Stock is a replacement. AKA " scant" stock.
Front sight blades are easily replaced to get it to shoot to point of aim.
A bit of alcohol soak will tell you if that is dried grease.. probably a bunch on the stock as well. Although clearly some rust.
What are the markings on the top of the barrel behind the front sight?

Checking the barrel for markings when I get home.

-Jake

Also it appears to be parkerized finish. Is that correct?

It wasn't in bad shape after getting the dust off and oiling it up

Barrel code

WWII replacement barrel.

Not correct for an “as issued” rifle, should be a smoother dark blue or a dark olive green.

But, it could have been applied when the barrel was replaced.

WWII Parkerizing comes in many flavors. But that doesn't look like an arsenal job to me.

It is clearly an arsenal rebuild. Vast majority of them were.
When WWII started the military was woefully ill equipped..
The Garand didn't see field use until sometime in later 1942. Even then the Marines issued the 1903 as they thought the Garand wasted ammo. The Garand only seeing use in the Pacific after the first major campaigns.
National Guard units assigned duty at US bases were even issued Springfield Trapdoors for a while.
It is highly likely that your gun saw heavy service until being returned for rebuild in late 1944 or later.
Remember that for a long time the ammo was loaded with corrosive primers. Barrel.date was the earliest it would have been rebuilt. Early guns were heat treaded by hand and there are those who recommend not shooting low serial number guns. Here again there us some debate. Some say less than 750,000 and some say 1,000,000
FWIW, I had an early gun (1909) and parkerizing was light

The bore looks great. And it shot more than acceptable groups for me being behind the trigger and open sights.

Just high. But that's manageable.

My uncle is a member at a 600 yard range. Steel from 100-600. I'll get it out there eventually and play with the flip up sight.

The op's rifle has a Springfield Armory field replacement bolt and a WWII SA replacement barrel. How and when those parts got on that action is anybody's guess. The Parkerizing on the rifle was re-done commercially, IMO. It was obviously refinished after the bolt handle was "modified"; all the parts have the same finish, which would be unlikely for a WWII rebuild, and I doubt any arsenal would sandblast and re-park a barreled action with the complete rear sight assembly in place.

Cutoff serial numbers for low-numbered actions were determined a hundred years ago and generally accepted at 800,000 for SA; 285,507 for Rock Island. Not much debate on that. The debate is whether to shoot one or not.

A 1909 rifle with "light" Parkerizing would have been refinished. Rifles that early were originally blued.

The Marines entered the Pacific campaigns in mid-late 1942 armed mainly (but not entirely) with Springfields not because they felt the Garand "wasted ammo" rather because then as always in history the Marines sucked hind tit in the supply chain. There simply weren't enough Garands to go around to arm our burgeoning armed forces, and the Marines were last in line. By the time the Guadalcanal campaign was wrapped up in 1943 there was a preponderance of Garands in the Marine's hands.

The subject rifle here is obviously a put together rifle, whether by a gov't arsenal or by a civilian is up for debate. I feel it was a civilian job for much the same reasons that Primebeef outlined. Stop and consider that Springfield stuff overflowed the gov't warehouses and was sold by the ton as surplus after the war - all that stuff could be had for pennies, literally. I can remember as a kid seeing drums full of barrels, bolts, stocks, etc. for sale at giveaway prices in the Army surplus stores as late as 20 years after the war. Many a rifle was assembled in basements, garages, and small shops by guys with varying degrees of skill. Bubba got his initial training courtesy of cheap Springfield junk.

Don't get me wrong, the OP's rifle has merit, primarily as a shooter, even if it's a conglomeration of parts: late-war replacement barrel, 1903A3 bolt (probably a Smith-Corona one), wartime scant grip stock, etc. Pics of the stock furniture (bands, butt plate, etc.) would also be revelatory in that regard. My advice: shoot the hell out of it. If a "correct" rifle were to be built off of the high number receiver it would be difficult in this day and age - pre-war '03 barrels, bolts, stocks, and stock furniture have become ghastly expensive.

The Garand was commonly seen in the hands of troops in the Philippines 1941-42. Mostly 03's yes, and 1917's in the hands of Filipino troops, but Garands were there in good numbers too.

National Guard troops armed with Trapdoors? Maybe at the start of WWI, but most likely to have been armed with Krags in that situation. By WWII the Trapdoor was a distant memory. Think about it - we had millions of M1917 Enfields in secondary war reserve left over from WWI, why would we issue blackpowder single shot rifles even to "lowly" NG troops for any reason? If that indeed happened I would sure like to see the proof!

According to military nomenclature in Hatchers book the M1917 Enfields were considered Substitute standard and only issued when Garands and Springfields weren't availible to equip a unit. That is one of the reasons so many of the are in nice shape . In 1948 when decreed in excess of the.military's need they were to be disposed of to the public also mandated was a final inspection of all 17's and any showing excess headspace or even near it were to be rebarreled before sale. I have had 2 17's with damn near new barrels and both were good shooters. It's all in Hatchers Notebook the best source of 03, 03A3 and 1917.knowledge out there...mb

PS edit to add to the OP you got 03 battle sighted and a 600 yd range availible to you. It's youbegettner time. Make the most of it.

I'll add that Brophy's and Canfield's books on the subject are a must read for any serious student of the '03 too.

Great thread for some of us Springfield "loonies"-lot of good information posted by knowledgeable folks. Thanks for starting this Boca.

Thanks to all for contributing!

All of the finish is the same. Barrel, receiver, sight, bottom metal, bolt handle, even where it was ground down.

Which would indicate to me it was probably done by a civilian after the rifle was bought or put together surplus.

Since I'm not a collector, but a shooter and hunter -it'll do just fine for me.

What's the rifle worth?

I knew that question was coming! View Gunbroker auctions and GunsInternational sales for an idea. Bearing in mind all the stuff we pointed out to you. In today's world a righteously "correct" late WWI rifle will fetch $1K in dubious condition, and twice that for a good one. If you gave $200 for it you did really good, 2-3 times that would be expectant for the same gun offered in a public sale.

Looking at it in terms of its individual parts, its receiver is its strongest point. Figure $200 just for that. (I recently paid $350 for a late pre-war nickel steel receiver with correct bolt numbered to it - with concrete provenance of it having been used in a National Match rifle built in 1936.) Figure another $200 if buying a late war replacement barrel (they're on eBay a lot). Sights and stock furniture maybe another hundred. The scant grip stock - I don't know. A lot of Springfield guys turn their nose up at them, but if it's sound maybe another $100? The bolt is a throwaway IMO so not counting its worth.

Not for sale-just curious. I figured I did alright on the purchase.
Again thanks all.

I'll update the thread occasionally as I mess with it. Shoot some actual groups and hopefully take some deer with it.

I'm thinking I'll load up some mild 150gr loads for it and enjoy it won't I other rifles are cooling off!
-Jake

Six rds through it this afternoon while getting dinner ready..

The bottom latch held fine. So, cleaning that mechanism up did the trick.

Done messing with it until I start shooting regularly again when the weather breaks.

I'll spend some time at the loading bench loading some mild 150s.

-Jake

I don't have collector grade Springfields in the house nada one Springfield and Remington 03's. Remington and Smith Corona 03A3's all bubba'ed one way or another so cash wise they are not expensive specimens. Not worth alot of money but everytime I use one they increase in value to me. Both my moms dad in ww1 and my dad in ww2 trained and qualified on Springfields you might say they are in the blood. There are more advanced rifles today but as a military bolt action they have no equal far as I'm concerned...mb

I hear you. My fondness for the '03 was sparked by my Uncle John who was drafted in 1940 (first ever peacetime draft - he was "lucky" enough to be in the first 100,000). Was assigned to the 1st Inf Div. Fought through North Africa (got captured at Kasserine Pass and escaped), then on to Sicily where he caught a bullet, then back to England and landed on Omaha Beach 3rd Wave, wounded again somewhere in France. Finally caught his 3rd bullet of the war in the Huertgen Forest and that was it for him, back to the States. He was kind of a hell raiser and kept getting busted in rank. The rifle(s) he carried: '03 Springfield until Sicily, then a Thompson. His MO was Infantry Scout and as such was one of the few GI's that had carte blanche as to his choice of personal weapon.

He talked guns a lot, and about drinking escapades with his buddies, and the time a bistro in Paris fed him rabbit stew comprised of cat meat, but he never talked about the bad stuff. He confided in my Dad and no one else, and Dad passed a lot on to me. I can still see him work the bolt on my first '03, draw a bead on a tin can, and when it bounced away said "well, there's one less Kraut for ya." Yeah the '03 is in my blood.

I hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine.

Had issues at first, it didn't want to feed the last round, I mean it would bind up tight! Did some research, what I found was that the magazine follower for an 03a3 was a stamped unit, mine had a milled one for the 03. It wasn't a lot of money, so I thought "what the hell, everything else looks good", so I replaced it.

It feeds the last round without any issue, now. But, as much as I have cycled the action, it still has a roughness to it and I've heard that it may be a characteristic of the 03a3. I don't know. It certainly isn't as slick at some 03s I've cycled and not even as smooth as a Krag.

But it sure are fun to shoot! Surprisingly accurate, too.

That's a nice one, Vic. The 03A3's were a wartime expedient, as you know, and as such they cut a lot of corners with them. But that doesn't detract from their utility one bit, just as you note not as smooth as pre-war guns. (And I'll admit they have way better sights.)

Curious, does it have a tiny little "K" stamped in the recess in the stock where magazine cutoff switch flips down into?

I do enjoy loading for and shooting my 03-A3.



Vic_in_VA - the Krags I've shot were quite smooth.

Regards, Guy

I think I paid $12 for my first .03 back in 64.They were in a barrel in Montgomery Wards.I started my competition shooting with that rifle and it shot better than I did.

Sometime in the late 90's DCM (now CMP) found a supply of them and had raffle for anyone wanting to buy one. I won a slot and think I paid about$150 for it. Everything was about perfect on it except the stock was cracked.
A co worked saw it and really wanted it.Stupid me, I sold it to him and he won't sell it back.

John George; US Army, "Shots Fired In Anger", who wrote aboutj his experiences from 1942/45 at Guadalcanal and in Burma with Merrill's Marauders was an expert rifleman and an 03 fan. He wrote about the 03 and he writes about some of the military's members initial skepticism of the transition to the Garand from the 03 and how it changed to enthusiastic acceptance once the Garand got into actual combat. The Marines were the last to be issued Garands and I believe it was him among others who said the Army had to watch their Garands pretty close as they tended to "disappear". Good read.

If rifles could talk......

Dad bought 4 or 5 03’s and 03-A3’s when they came in 55 gallon barrels. My two older brothers each had a couple. My oldest brother bought quite a few never used barrels for $.98 each. I started out with a Mauser. But when I had enough scratch I got a 03. I carried that for coyotes, deer, pronghorns etc. I mainly used 180 grain Rem CL bullets for everything. My 03 had a Weaver K4 and Weaver rings and bases.

No, it does not, I suspect the stock is an aftermarket one.

It has no stampings or cartouches whatsoever and a Criterion barrel.

I suspect it had been fired very little when I got it. I haven't fired it much, either.

Guy-Nice rifle. Krags are perhaps the smoothest actions I've cycled, my 03a3 feels like it has sand in it compared to the Krag.

43Shooter-I read that book on another member's suggestion, excellent read. I like how he gives a relatively objective view on the equipment Japanese vs American.

gnoahhh-I've dug a little deeper into this rifle and what I found was some markings on the barrel indicating this particular rifle was refurbed by Rock Ridge Machine Works and is possibly a recovered Drill rifle.

I knew it was not a collectible, the refurb had taken care of that, and because of the price I paid due to the feeding issues, I really don't feel bad about it.

👍👍👍

A shooter grade rifle with a worn out barrel is an excellent candidate for a Criterion barrel. I've used a couple on Springfields, and a Garand. Price (when they're available, which has been spotty here of late) is comparable to a run of the mill GI barrel and they're devilishly accurate, at least in my experience.

My best performer is an NRA Sporter I bought with a tired barrel on it. They came with Star Gauged barrels, and quite a few were chosen by serious competitors back in the day in lieu of service rifles and National Match rifles. (Perhaps due in large part to their heavier barrel contour versus the Service rifle barrels.) It would hold maybe 2 1/2" at 100 yards, on a good day - certainly good enough for hunting within its iron sights limitations, but it bugged me. I pulled it off (and tagged it with the info of the rifle it came off of for posterity), and installed a match grade barrel (Krieger) that was contoured to exactly match the original. Tight match chamber with minimum headspace, original sights retained. Now she'll stick five into an average inch, with enough 3/4MOA groups to tempt me to revise how I talk about it - not bad with iron sights. I'd love to scope it with a period correct Lyman 5A to see what it's really capable of, but that's another one of those "Roundtoits". (The Springfield Armory made these for sale to civilians in the mid-20's to early 30's, only 5000 total. Kinda rare.)



A couple 3-shot groups:

Nice!

By August 7 when the Marines went ashore on Guadalcanal they had several hundred garands with them. At that time the whole USMC had garands except for the 2 infantry divisions as they were already forward deployed. By early '43 it was fully equipped with garands.