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Giving this some critical thought I can easily see the need for a reload being more important in a rural setting rather than in a big city environment. While the chances of getting assaulted and/or somehow caught up in a violent deadly force encounter is probably much greater in the big city, the country has problems also and the encounter might go longer out in the sticks than in the big city. When you look at big city shootings they tend to be drive by run and gun type encounters. Bad guys are aware there are witnesses, cameras and cops all around. They don't tend to stand around and bang it out toe to toe for very long. There is a short flurry of violence and then somebody exits pretty damned quick.
Out in the boonies do you have cell service? Who would be responding to help you and from how far away? Response times would most certainly be considerably longer and with fewer resources to assist you at first on the scene. Where I roam there is very little and very spotty unreliable cell service. Help would be from a Sheriff's Department that normally only has one or two deputies covering a large remote county. My neck of the woods consist of National Forest and State Conservation Lands that number in the hundreds of thousands of acres. From the time of the local law enforcement receiving an emergency call it could easily be 30-45 minutes for the first deputies to arrive. They have to find you first and that isn't easy on unnamed or numbered gravel forest roads. Whatever goes down you're on your own and you will be handling it yourself for the duration of the event. In that case a determined attacker or two might require an extended fight and at extended ranges. You could end up away from your vehicle and you will be fighting with what you have on you.
Remember you don't get to pick the gunfight conditions and circumstances. Also, and very importantly, the other side has a say in what happens too. The bad guy/s aren't just going to stand there on the X and fire 2.5 rounds each and wait to see what happens to them. They are in the game too and they'll do their best to finish it the winner. "More ammo" is more of a factor in urban areas than ever. Think of the George Floyd riots, Portland, or Kenosha - elements went on for days. The police don't even pretend to respond to 911 calls, their strategy is to simply contain. That's all well and good until you find yourself on the inside of a containment area. You're on your own. The disturbing thing about Kenosha is not that three people were shot (justifiably), it's that 100 weren't shot. The hero, name omitted to protect him from Google, was chased halfway across the city to finally be ignored by law enforcement. A lot of us don't run that well and things would have been different. During the George Floyd riots the rioters completely confined themselves to business districts and targets - a wise, but probably just lucky, choice. Had they wandered into neighborhoods intent on burning houses the shooting would have started. This seems to be the new reality.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Anyone ever been in a gunfight - be it civilian or military and wish they had brought less ammo to that fight with them?
Me
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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Anyone ever been in a gunfight - be it civilian or military and wish they had brought less ammo to that fight with them? Sounds to me like an argument for routinely carrying twenty loaded mags. Any less, and you might wish you had more if you were in an extended gunfight. If twenty is good, forty has to be twice as good.
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Joined: Dec 2003
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Even if you only fire 2 or 3 rounds the ability to do a quick tactical reload in the middle of chaos and have a fully loaded gun again could make it worthwhile.
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Campfire Regular
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This thread gets me thinking back to when I started racing four wheelers. The advice given to me when buying my gear was “If you got a $10 head, buy a $10 dollar helmet. If you think your head’s worth more, buy a better helmet.”. Applying that line of logic…if your life, or the lives of those with you is worth X number of rounds, carry X then. If said lives are worth XXXX number of rounds(or more) then do that. Whatever makes you happy will almost always make some others scratch their heads in wonder. Your choice, your lives. I hope my ability to exist NEVER comes down to round count, but more is better! Just like good bourbon in the cabinet. 😎
Livin ain’t killed me yet, but it’s workin on it!
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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This thread gets me thinking back to when I started racing four wheelers. The advice given to me when buying my gear was “If you got a $10 head, buy a $10 dollar helmet. If you think your head’s worth more, buy a better helmet.”. Applying that line of logic…if your life, or the lives of those with you is worth X number of rounds, carry X then. If said lives are worth XXXX number of rounds(or more) then do that. Whatever makes you happy will almost always make some others scratch their heads in wonder. Your choice, your lives. I hope my ability to exist NEVER comes down to round count, but more is better! Just like good bourbon in the cabinet. 😎 Eight to eleven onboard are fine for me. It always comes down to a balancing act between comfort and perceived threat level, i.e., the perceived likelihood that more rounds might make a difference. Everybody comes down on a different number when it comes to what you actually have on you all the time. For some, a fully loaded five shot J-Frame seems just right. For others, a Glock 17 with three backup mags on your belt seems the minimum for comfort. Most fall somewhere in between. I have extra mags handy in my car and in my house, but not generally on my person. If I should get the sense that the threat level has increased, it's an easy matter to stick one in my pocket, doubling (or more) my available ammo.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Or you could add 3 backup guns based on your triple the difficulty ratio.
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Campfire Regular
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Hands up, how many of y'all have ever fought a basehead?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Giving this some critical thought I can easily see the need for a reload being more important in a rural setting rather than in a big city environment. While the chances of getting assaulted and/or somehow caught up in a violent deadly force encounter is probably much greater in the big city, the country has problems also and the encounter might go longer out in the sticks than in the big city. When you look at big city shootings they tend to be drive by run and gun type encounters. Bad guys are aware there are witnesses, cameras and cops all around. They don't tend to stand around and bang it out toe to toe for very long. There is a short flurry of violence and then somebody exits pretty damned quick.
Out in the boonies do you have cell service? Who would be responding to help you and from how far away? Response times would most certainly be considerably longer and with fewer resources to assist you at first on the scene. Where I roam there is very little and very spotty unreliable cell service. Help would be from a Sheriff's Department that normally only has one or two deputies covering a large remote county. My neck of the woods consist of National Forest and State Conservation Lands that number in the hundreds of thousands of acres. From the time of the local law enforcement receiving an emergency call it could easily be 30-45 minutes for the first deputies to arrive. They have to find you first and that isn't easy on unnamed or numbered gravel forest roads. Whatever goes down you're on your own and you will be handling it yourself for the duration of the event. In that case a determined attacker or two might require an extended fight and at extended ranges. You could end up away from your vehicle and you will be fighting with what you have on you.
Remember you don't get to pick the gunfight conditions and circumstances. Also, and very importantly, the other side has a say in what happens too. The bad guy/s aren't just going to stand there on the X and fire 2.5 rounds each and wait to see what happens to them. They are in the game too and they'll do their best to finish it the winner. "More ammo" is more of a factor in urban areas than ever. Think of the George Floyd riots, Portland, or Kenosha - elements went on for days. The police don't even pretend to respond to 911 calls, their strategy is to simply contain. That's all well and good until you find yourself on the inside of a containment area. You're on your own. The disturbing thing about Kenosha is not that three people were shot (justifiably), it's that 100 weren't shot. The hero, name omitted to protect him from Google, was chased halfway across the city to finally be ignored by law enforcement. A lot of us don't run that well and things would have been different. During the George Floyd riots the rioters completely confined themselves to business districts and targets - a wise, but probably just lucky, choice. Had they wandered into neighborhoods intent on burning houses the shooting would have started. This seems to be the new reality. Can't argue with that. I would not want to be caught up in a situation like you described.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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As usual & always, avoid areas of high potential stress.....................but today, schitt can happen anywhere, at any given time.
You can always bring unused ammo home; you can't stop time & go get it though if you do need it.
Worse yet is to not go heeled at all.....................
MM
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Carry what you are comfortable with, not what someone else thinks, you not them are the one who might have to use it. This is the internet everyone has an opinion and an azzhole, out on the street their opinions and azzholes don't count only yours....mb
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Can anyone cite a single instance where a civilian's life was saved because he had an extra loaded mag on him? One instance? I think the proper question to ask would be "how many civilians have died in a gunfight because they ran out of ammo"? Okay, how many? I have no idea. Just like you have no idea as to your original question. Right?
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,973 Likes: 54 |
Can anyone cite a single instance where a civilian's life was saved because he had an extra loaded mag on him? One instance? I think the proper question to ask would be "how many civilians have died in a gunfight because they ran out of ammo"? Okay, how many? I have no idea. Just like you have no idea as to your original question. Right? Likely the reason we're both coming up empty handed on those two question is that the number is super low, or non-existent. Otherwise, the information would be readily available.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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No one tracks things like that on civilian shootings.
Tom Givens keeps track of student involved shootings and this is what he thinks about averages.
“ I dislike the term “average shooting” as the term is meaningless. To have averages, you take big numbers and small numbers and mash them together. The result is usually misleading. For instance, if you look at two shootings involving students of mine, one was shot at 22 yards, the other at 11 shots at 4 yards. Their average would be six shots at 13 yards, which isn’t even close to either incident”
We are in the days of gang violence, mobs and riots. It’s not always just one guy trying to kill you. Given 3-5 rounds can be what it takes to stop an attacker, a 1911 might be good for two guys. Then your empty.
I carry a 5 shot J frame at times, at times a 1911 and most of the time a Glock 19. I have at least one reload for each gun on my person.
If we went by averages, none of us would need to carry at all. But that’s why averages suck.
Carry what you want, get what you deserve.
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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Someone who knows how to shoot, carrying a five shot J-Frame with no reload, is about a thousand times more prepared to defend himself than the average American. Perspective is sometimes in need in these discussions.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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When I went to Gunsite the instructor said this question comes up every class.
His answer was, "Carry the reloads or magazines that fit into your training and practice schedule. You do have a practice routine, right?
He then added "mags were the weakest link in semi-autos, not the number of rounds."
Most people don't have what it takes to get old
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
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Someone who knows how to shoot, carrying a five shot J-Frame with no reload, is about a thousand times more prepared to defend himself than the average American. Perspective is sometimes in need in these discussions. Prepared yes. But when the fight comes - how does he/she stack up compared to others that are "prepared" and in the same fight? There's pre-fight and fight. People focused on the pre-fight and think that makes em ready for the fight. I can train forever, I'm not ready ever to get in the octagon with McGreggor yet I'd be miles ahead of the guy on the couch. Great. I last just a little longer than Joe the Dorito sloth. I don't want to last longer, I want to win and that means preparing for the likely fight and these days - the likely fight is one where you have multiple assailants. I want more ammo rather than less.
Me
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Campfire Outfitter
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Jerod Reston was shot 7 times out of 12 rounds fired with a 45 and managed to wrestle his attacker (who he had dumped bullets into as well) and finally placed his 40 to the guys head firing three more times to stop him, Reston fired 14 rounds.
A friend of mine shot a guy one time recently in the mouth and out the ear with a 380, the guy dropped to the ground but had the ability to break out his phone and video his bleeding self on facebook. If he was a fighter, he could've continued shooting instead of just giving up.
You never know what you're gonna get.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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You never know what you're gonna get. ![[Linked Image from media.tenor.com]](https://media.tenor.com/AE4tIubdJacAAAAC/forrest-gump-box-of-chocolates.gif)
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Campfire Regular
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you say to yourself more ammo instead of less-- opponent says to self, more ammo instead of less
in any encounter you must assume your opponent is as least as good/well armed/trained as you are
so what's the odds of your winning then?
50/50. Nope there are 3 outcomes, you win, they win, draw/or both dead
tactics only go so far before strategy wins.
Most people don't have what it takes to get old
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