Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson

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Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Pharmseller #18390217 05/02/23
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,932 D devnull Campfire Regular
devnull Campfire Regular D Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,932	Glad you're OK. Try using Gordon's Reloading Tool (GRT) to determine pressure. Similar to Quickload but free.

GB1

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson devnull #18390384 05/02/23
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 8,641 Nebr Swifty52 Campfire Outfitter
Swifty52 Campfire Outfitter Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 8,641 Nebr	Originally Posted by devnull Glad you're OK. Try using Gordon's Reloading Tool (GRT) to determine pressure. Similar to Quickload but free. Well went back to the OP’s other thread and used his seating depths and matched the velocity he reported. Hot day and he shot these rounds he should have had a lottery ticket. 2.373 seating 2.477 Predicted to get where he got 2.9 grains over max. 68-71K pressure. That’s without letting them sit in the sun, but it was bound to happen sooner or later. 55K is max I do believe. Last edited by Swifty52; 05/02/23. Swifty

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Pharmseller #18390405 05/02/23
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 7,721 TN K Kaleb Campfire Outfitter
Kaleb Campfire Outfitter K Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 7,721 TN	I think what most people are saying about fast twist 223’s and what Shrap hears are two very different things. A lot of what Shrap is saying is correct I just don’t know why he’s saying it?….lol. I don’t think anyone is saying it’s the hammer of Thor or will make anyone Daniel Boone. Just as no one is saying it’s better than the 22-250,22-250AI, or 22creedmoor. It just seems like he has a axe to grind and will twist(no pun) and turn things so he can pitch his fit. He’s not alone by any means though. Guys do the exact same thing about hunting with match bullets anything on a creedmoor case and Trump.

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Pharmseller #18390430 05/02/23
Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,301 Northeast USA B beretzs Campfire Ranger
beretzs Campfire Ranger B Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 15,301 Northeast USA	Cartridge : .223 Rem. (SAAMI) Bullet : .224, 75, Hornady ELD-M 22791 Useable Case Capaci: 25.862 grain H2O = 1.679 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.477 inch = 62.92 mm Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm Powder : Ramshot TAC *C Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -20.0 83 21.36 2445 996 35191 6057 88.0 1.373 -18.0 85 21.89 2505 1045 37651 6241 89.2 1.335 -16.0 87 22.43 2564 1095 40289 6420 90.4 1.294 -14.0 89 22.96 2624 1146 43117 6593 91.5 1.255 -12.0 91 23.50 2683 1199 46151 6760 92.6 1.217 -10.0 93 24.03 2743 1253 49408 6919 93.6 1.181 -08.0 96 24.56 2803 1308 52909 7071 94.5 1.146 -06.0 98 25.10 2862 1364 56675 7214 95.4 1.112 ! Near Maximum ! -04.0 100 25.63 2922 1422 60731 7347 96.2 1.080 ! Near Maximum ! -02.0 102 26.17 2981 1480 65104 7471 96.9 1.049 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +00.0 104 26.70 3041 1540 69828 7585 97.5 1.019 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +02.0 106 27.23 3100 1600 74937 7687 98.1 0.989 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +04.0 108 27.77 3159 1662 80473 7778 98.6 0.961 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +06.0 110 28.30 3219 1725 86485 7856 99.0 0.934 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +08.0 112 28.84 3278 1789 93026 7921 99.4 0.908 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +10.0 114 29.37 3337 1854 100163 7972 99.7 0.882 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value: +Ba 104 26.70 3169 1672 82224 7483 99.9 0.953 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value: -Ba 104 26.70 2870 1372 57818 7363 91.7 1.104 ! Near Maximum ! I see about the same on QL. 70-75K give or take, before the heated up ammo.. Semper Fi

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson shrapnel #18390483 05/02/23
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 17,311 Durham, CA Higginez Campfire Ranger
Higginez Campfire Ranger Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 17,311 Durham, CA	Originally Posted by shrapnel Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter Originally Posted by Higginez Originally Posted by shrapnel I think the infatuation with a 223 and fast twist has done the shooting world a real injustice. The 223 is a small to moderate case designed for different ballistics than what it has become. Somehow the desire to make the 223 a long range cartridge is like putting a 250,000 BTU furnace in a 6,000 square foot house. Certain things can be achieved, but at what expense? I am no ballistician, but I can see how heavier bullets, spun faster in a barrel could create more pressure than it would equally balanced with a lighter bullet and slower twist. I have killed deer and antelope with a 223, and I know it can be done, but I will continue to hunt big game with larger bullets in a larger cartridge and save the 223 for varmints, as it has proven itself to be one of the very best for just that purpose… Hilarious. Thousands of fast twist .223's not having pressure issues when loaded with 75's and Shrap chooses do bad mouth them when Pharm does something OBVIOUSLY stupid. Are the 6BR, 6BRA and 6 Dasher doing the shooting world a real injustice Shrap? LMAO Ah, he just has a real hard on for fast twist cartridges right now. Not a damn thing wrong with them. We all know and have told Pharm his hot rodding will catch up to him. At least Pharm is man enough to admit when he fu cked up. Shrap doesn't think he can do wrong... Even though he's dead wrong about fast twist cartridges.. You and the others didn’t really read what I said. I didn’t blame the fast twist for the problem of over loading a cartridge. I did qualify that statement with theory. Yes, I am not a fan of fast twist 223 as it has become the golden boy of many that think it is some magical combination that kills like the hammer of Thor. The truth is that long range shooting with high BC bullets is done with larger cartridges, the 223 is used in 3 gun or military categories and as such is limited by it’s case capacity to compete in long range shooting other than those disciplines. All the guys that tout the killing ability of the fast 223 cartridge, I have no doubt have done it, but the message to the neophyte is that he could get the fast twist 223 and magically become Daniel Boone. There is not a person on this board that has killed more game without a 223 or more varmints with a 223 than I have. I am not posting pictures of holes in paper and no one else is showing the superiority of the 223 with enough experience that doesn’t come from a background of shooting and hunting skill. That, I believe is sending the message to the beginner that the 223 with fast twist is as capable alone as it is without the experienced shooter behind it. Dead pigs and other critters killed with the 223 are not in question, it is the continual insinuation that a 223 is a long range cartridge, and it can’t possibly compete with a 22-250 sized case or larger with a fast twist to shine beyond the limits of the velocity of a 223 and a heavier bullet… I’ve killed a pile of deer with a .270WCF. Most with a 140 Berger at 2,950 but several with 130 Sierras and 130 NPT. The .223 with 75’s launched at similar speeds would have had the exact same results as the much heavier .270 bullet. Is there a limit on how far you should take game with it? Sure. Just like any of the other cartridges. Out to 600 yards that little fugger is a deadly sumbitch though and there isn’t a deer walking this earth that would make me worry I didn’t have enough gun. It isn’t magic, but it is pretty dang remarkable. Screw you! I'm voting for Trump again! Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the 24HCF.

IC B2

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Higginez #18390626 05/02/23
Joined: Jan 2013 Posts: 2,513 Pa grovey Campfire Regular
grovey Campfire Regular Joined: Jan 2013 Posts: 2,513 Pa	A 223 having the same killing ability at 600yds as a 270 win? BULLSCHITZ

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson grovey #18390740 05/02/23
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 17,311 Durham, CA Higginez Campfire Ranger
Higginez Campfire Ranger Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 17,311 Durham, CA	Originally Posted by grovey A 223 having the same killing ability at 600yds as a 270 win? BULLSCHITZ Nobody said that. Screw you! I'm voting for Trump again! Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the 24HCF.

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Pharmseller #18390827 05/02/23
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 8,641 Nebr Swifty52 Campfire Outfitter
Swifty52 Campfire Outfitter Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 8,641 Nebr	Funny story here, a guy I know thought he could hit a deer (nice buck that everyone was chasing) that was on the tree line first shooting light, well he missed but he did manage to hit a cow that he couldnt see behind that deer. Farmer extremely pizzed, cow was on property he couldn’t hunt, so this guy ends up buying the cow (not cheap either) and fills his freezer with beef instead of deer. He decided that shooting deer at 400+ yards wasn’t too damn smart. Moral of the story, don’t shoot unless you know exactly what’s behind the target. Swifty

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Swifty52 #18390841 05/02/23
Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 13,146 Willamette Valley, Oregon P Pharmseller OP Campfire Outfitter
OP Pharmseller Campfire Outfitter P Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 13,146 Willamette Valley, Oregon	Originally Posted by Swifty52 Originally Posted by devnull Glad you're OK. Try using Gordon's Reloading Tool (GRT) to determine pressure. Similar to Quickload but free. Well went back to the OP’s other thread and used his seating depths and matched the velocity he reported. Hot day and he shot these rounds he should have had a lottery ticket. 2.373 seating 2.477 Predicted to get where he got 2.9 grains over max. 68-71K pressure. That’s without letting them sit in the sun, but it was bound to happen sooner or later. 55K is max I do believe. 26 grains. P Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved. ~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~ Member #547 Join date 3/09/2001

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Pharmseller #18390903 05/02/23
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 8,641 Nebr Swifty52 Campfire Outfitter
Swifty52 Campfire Outfitter Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 8,641 Nebr	Originally Posted by Pharmseller Originally Posted by Swifty52 Originally Posted by devnull Glad you're OK. Try using Gordon's Reloading Tool (GRT) to determine pressure. Similar to Quickload but free. Well went back to the OP’s other thread and used his seating depths and matched the velocity he reported. Hot day and he shot these rounds he should have had a lottery ticket. 2.373 seating 2.477 Predicted to get where he got 2.9 grains over max. 68-71K pressure. That’s without letting them sit in the sun, but it was bound to happen sooner or later. 55K is max I do believe. 26 grains. P I can run it at 26 but guess what you’re still going to be ~65K. Give a minute and I can run it. Swifty

IC B3

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Swifty52 #18390925 05/02/23
Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 13,146 Willamette Valley, Oregon P Pharmseller OP Campfire Outfitter
OP Pharmseller Campfire Outfitter P Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 13,146 Willamette Valley, Oregon	Originally Posted by Swifty52 Originally Posted by Pharmseller Originally Posted by Swifty52 Originally Posted by devnull Glad you're OK. Try using Gordon's Reloading Tool (GRT) to determine pressure. Similar to Quickload but free. Well went back to the OP’s other thread and used his seating depths and matched the velocity he reported. Hot day and he shot these rounds he should have had a lottery ticket. 2.373 seating 2.477 Predicted to get where he got 2.9 grains over max. 68-71K pressure. That’s without letting them sit in the sun, but it was bound to happen sooner or later. 55K is max I do believe. 26 grains. P I can run it at 26 but guess what you’re still going to be ~65K. Give a minute and I can run it. No need, I just wanted to be accurate. I was wrong, but I wasn’t 27 grains wrong. P Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved. ~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~ Member #547 Join date 3/09/2001

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Pharmseller #18390990 05/02/23
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 8,641 Nebr Swifty52 Campfire Outfitter
Swifty52 Campfire Outfitter Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 8,641 Nebr	Ok here you go, GRT defaults to 31 which is about average. If your case capacity is 31.0 grains then Decrease your case capacity 1/2 grain then Decrease capacity 1 grain At 31 2K overpressue, 30.5 your at ~60K, 1 grain your ~62K Now if I had you exact case capacity to the top of the neck I could get closer. No way I would use that load at under 31 and I have seen variances between 29-32 grains dependent on brass manufacture. Swifty

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Pharmseller #18392622 05/02/23
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,932 D devnull Campfire Regular
devnull Campfire Regular D Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,932	Pharm, you've taken some heat on this thread no doubt. It takes someone genuine to step up and say, I fawked up. Good on you as you don't see too many doing it today. This is a lesson to all that eyes and ear protection are a necessity.

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Pharmseller #18392639 05/02/23
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 11,520 lawrence county MO L ldholton Campfire Outfitter
ldholton Campfire Outfitter L Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 11,520 lawrence county MO	I particularly give an eye roll when some people think because it's an AI cartridge gains 200 to 300 ft per second or more because it's not showing traditional pressure sign..... which way too many people think judged by primers.. Last edited by ldholton; 05/02/23.

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson devnull #18392697 05/02/23
Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 13,146 Willamette Valley, Oregon P Pharmseller OP Campfire Outfitter
OP Pharmseller Campfire Outfitter P Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 13,146 Willamette Valley, Oregon	Originally Posted by devnull Pharm, you've taken some heat on this thread no doubt. It takes someone genuine to step up and say, I fawked up. Good on you as you don't see too many doing it today. This is a lesson to all that eyes and ear protection are a necessity. Hey, it’s pretty easy, I don’t know any of the asshōles on this site, I can be as honest as possible. No risk. P Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved. ~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~ Member #547 Join date 3/09/2001

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Pharmseller #18392718 05/02/23
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 48,026 Battle Born B bsa1917hunter Campfire 'Bwana
bsa1917hunter Campfire 'Bwana B Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 48,026 Battle Born	Originally Posted by Pharmseller Originally Posted by devnull Pharm, you've taken some heat on this thread no doubt. It takes someone genuine to step up and say, I fawked up. Good on you as you don't see too many doing it today. This is a lesson to all that eyes and ear protection are a necessity. Hey, it’s pretty easy, I don’t know any of the asshōles on this site, I can be as honest as possible. No risk. P I always appreciate honesty. It's the ones you know are lying out there azz that get under my skin. Originally Posted by raybass I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. Originally Posted by Pharmseller You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Pharmseller #18392721 05/02/23
Joined: Jul 2004 Posts: 6,663 Oklahoma City S Son_of_the_Gael Campfire Tracker
Son_of_the_Gael Campfire Tracker S Joined: Jul 2004 Posts: 6,663 Oklahoma City	This is all interesting. The last Western manual I have lists 25.8 gr max for the Hornady BTHP in 5.56x45 NATO. Aren't they 65K psi? (Yes, I know the .223 chamber is tighter) 'Four legs good, two legs baaaad." ---------------------------------------------- "Jimmy, some of it's magic, Some of it's tragic, But I had a good life all the way." (Jimmy Buffett) SotG

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Swifty52 #18392727 05/02/23
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 48,026 Battle Born B bsa1917hunter Campfire 'Bwana
bsa1917hunter Campfire 'Bwana B Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 48,026 Battle Born	Originally Posted by Swifty52 Originally Posted by devnull Glad you're OK. Try using Gordon's Reloading Tool (GRT) to determine pressure. Similar to Quickload but free. Well went back to the OP’s other thread and used his seating depths and matched the velocity he reported. Hot day and he shot these rounds he should have had a lottery ticket. 2.373 seating 2.477 Predicted to get where he got 2.9 grains over max. 68-71K pressure. That’s without letting them sit in the sun, but it was bound to happen sooner or later. 55K is max I do believe. A testament on how strong the Tikka action is. Originally Posted by raybass I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. Originally Posted by Pharmseller You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson bsa1917hunter #18392832 05/02/23
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,206 Phoenix MikeS Campfire Regular
MikeS Campfire Regular Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,206 Phoenix	70k psi shouldn't harm a modern bolt action itself. The case and primer are always the weak link. Too close for irons, switching to scope...

Re: I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson Pharmseller #18392854 05/02/23
Joined: Jul 2004 Posts: 6,663 Oklahoma City S Son_of_the_Gael Campfire Tracker
Son_of_the_Gael Campfire Tracker S Joined: Jul 2004 Posts: 6,663 Oklahoma City	Originally Posted by Pharmseller Originally Posted by devnull Pharm, you've taken some heat on this thread no doubt. It takes someone genuine to step up and say, I fawked up. Good on you as you don't see too many doing it today. This is a lesson to all that eyes and ear protection are a necessity. Hey, it’s pretty easy, I don’t know any of the asshōles on this site, I can be as honest as possible. No risk. P Know any of the decent guys? 'Four legs good, two legs baaaad." ---------------------------------------------- "Jimmy, some of it's magic, Some of it's tragic, But I had a good life all the way." (Jimmy Buffett) SotG

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