Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles I am here to eat crow, having learned my lesson

Overpressure is a thing. I’ve seen it. And when you’re pushing the envelope and then the temperature gets into the 80’s, you’re fúcked.

Remember the 75 gr ELDM load I was so happy with? The one some of you guys said whoa Nelly you dumbass, that’s overpressure? And then I said I’m not getting any serious pressure signs and it shoots fantastic? And then you said okay it might shoot fantastic now, but what about when it gets hot? And I said I wasn’t worried about shooting in the heat?

Well, I shot in the heat. Fúck.

Normal bolt, see the little ledge? That ledge holds the bolt shroud on.






I’ll bet some of you already know where I’m going with this.

So here’s the bolt on my .223. Notice anything different?






Kinda odd, the bolt shroud blew off and landed in my shirt pocket. Made it pretty easy to find. Ripped that little ledge clean off.

Lesson definitely learned. And the important question, what’s the name of the piece I need, and where can I buy it?


If anyone wants to kick me when I’m down, feel free, I deserve it.






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Glad you are OK.

Learned my lesson as well.

Maximum book charge weight or book velocity, whichever comes first is my max max. I reserve the right to tone it down from there.

Looks like I have to buy a complete firing pin assembly. There goes $140.






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You got off easy.

Got any photos of the brass?

No, but the primers were cratered badly.




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Just glad you weren't injured. Parts can be replaced much easier than eyes.

Did the case rupture or the primer get pierced? If not, I don't understand why the bolt shroud blew off.

Glad you came out ok other than a broken part.

It's funny how things happen like that.

I remember reading your post and you came off pretty cocky telling everyone how safe your load was and quite a few members we’re trying to let you know that you were more than pushing the envelope, but you kept coming back with your smart a$$ remarks on how safe you thought your load was!

Sometimes it pays to listen….

Glad you got off so easy. $140 is barely a stern reminder. Now go buy quickload. 😁

I'm glad you're Ok and the damage is only a modest amount of cash.

I deserve that.



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Primer might have gotten pierced, I didn’t recover the last case.






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What was/are the load specs, so no one repeats the offending load?

Glad you're okay, and the price for a lesson learned was not drastic....

Speed comes at the expense of pressure, not being a way around this fact.
In a tight, concentric, properly assembled throat-barrel-bolt, pressure signs will not appear until pressure is not way above maximum already.
A .223 will never make it safely to 22-250 speeds.

With this said I am glad that the lesson cost you so little. I was as lucky as you have been.

Learned the same lesson, but not as harshly, with a .223AI and H335. Shot GREAT here in Montana at 40 degrees. First and only shot with it in Texas at 90 degrees blew the primer, End of H335....

that gets a lot of people. of course some powders are much worse about that than others

This sums it up for me.

Thank you, Pharmseller, for having the humility to share your experience - it's good us to be reminded periodically about the need to err on the side of caution.

You deserve an ATABOY. for standing up and admitting you made a mistake. Which most want do. Hasbeen

I love the temperature sensitivity thing about H335. I have shot 10’s of thousands with H335 and no issues. I do shoot 40 and 50 grain bullets, however, and don’t shoot heavier fast twist.

I am not saying it hasn’t happened, but I’m saying it hasn’t happened to me…

The results sure could have been much different..... Glad you came out ok.

Tip of the hat for being man enough to admit your mistake. Hope this serves as a example for us all....and yes, that includes me.



Sometimes experience is the best (and most cruel) teacher.

Shrapnel & Ingwe: I have been a many decades long user of H 335 and have shot countless thousands of handmade cartridges that were made with it - knock on wood - to date I have had no issues with it - just great accuracy and consistent velocities (according to my Oehler chronograph).
I must add that "I" am a notorious non-hotrodder when it comes to my handloads - I have NEVER loaded a single centerfire cartridge "above" book maximums, since I began handloading 63 years ago.

I also am so happy the O/P was not injured.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Waaaay too much TAC.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/18147804/1


Thanks for the kind words. This is the only load I’ve ever done above book max. Won’t be doing it again.




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New firing pin assembly on the way from Midwest Gun Works.

Went over to Mountain Tactical and ordered a new bolt handle just for fun.

Gonna go back to my Varget load and fiddle with seating depth.





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Understood. AA2230 behaves better with a hot gun on a hot day than TAC, which at atime was to be temp insensitive. Not in my experience.

I think the infatuation with a 223 and fast twist has done the shooting world a real injustice. The 223 is a small to moderate case designed for different ballistics than what it has become.

Somehow the desire to make the 223 a long range cartridge is like putting a 250,000 BTU furnace in a 6,000 square foot house. Certain things can be achieved, but at what expense?

I am no ballistician, but I can see how heavier bullets, spun faster in a barrel could create more pressure than it would equally balanced with a lighter bullet and slower twist.

I have killed deer and antelope with a 223, and I know it can be done, but I will continue to hunt big game with larger bullets in a larger cartridge and save the 223 for varmints, as it has proven itself to be one of the very best for just that purpose…

Good words. Thanks.

Exactly the same experience here with the same round and powder.

I tested my TAC loads on a hot day as hot as I knew I would get the gun(s) in question. They failed and I ended up getting safe results with an extruded powder.

They were both 1-14 twisted guns with 40gr. bullets and I'm betting ingwes loads were too.

Its about pressure at the chamber and heat generally makes it go up if you're already at max.

[align:right][/align]Now I have about 250 loads to pull. Never had to do this before. One or two finding OAL but never full loads.

PITA.

Gonna toss all the fired brass, too. I have lots.





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Thanks for sharing and just glad your OK - a good reminder just what we are dealing with each time we pull the trigger and why it is a very good idea to pay attention to all the cautions read or voiced - at ALL times when reloading.

PennDog

Similar situation to this happened to me with standard albeit maximum data from a mid 90's Hornady manual and the 30-06 with 165gr Interlocks and Winchester 760 powder. The max load was fine on cold days and during cold weather deer hunting, but would blow primers at the range on a 90° day. The load must have been developed without considering the effects of summer Texas temperatures.

I wouldn't kick myself too hard over this. Stuff happens and lessons are learned. I also have a keg of Military Surplus IMR-4895 that's the fastest lot I've ever seen. I have to be very very careful. Normal data doesn't kosh too well on the upper end with this stuff. I now use it primarily for reduced loads and cast lead bullets.

😁 Hornady manual early 90’s loading 25.06, 117 grain Hornady and RL22, max load listed was 56.5 grains got to 54.5 and couldn’t lift the bolt then had to have a smithy get it open. Never have trusted that manual or any other Hornady manual since.

I've blown primers with normal 308 win data using that military IMR-4895 mentioned above, so it's not just temperature swings that cause trouble. There's also a tolerance in slow vs fast burning lots of the same powder.

In the world of statistical variation, if you do something long enough you'll stumble across the worst case scenario and something happens.

Mix an upper end (say the heaviest possible charge of the run) of fastest burn rate powder in a least possible capacity case. Maximum diameter bullet seated with a primer with maximum compound touched off with your hardest trigger squeeze..on a hot day.

It's hard to say what really happened here. Was the metal inherently flawed during manufacturing? Who's to say?

I'd like to think I'm a little wiser now than in my younger hot rod reloading days. Yes the hotter loads tend to burn cleaner and are often the most accurate, but at the same time I prefer to use no more resources than necessary to get the job done.

I’ll tell you what, pulling 75 gr bullets with a kinetic hammer is a bitch. It took me a while to figure it out, not a lot of momentum with that little bullet. Got through the partial box of 55, called it a day. 200 more to go. Bullets look good, tips are fine. I’ll run the primed cases over the expander ball before loading again.

I have enough Varget for about 2,000 rounds.




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Buy a collet puller, way faster than an inertia and less likely to damage the bullets.

Never heard of them, how do they work?



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Be careful!

That collet puller can crimp the bullet quite easily on any light jacketed bullets. The inertia puller, although slower, is still a better way to go on light jackets...

Hornady cam lock bullet puller item # 050095. Best $50 I ever spent (maybe). Get all the collets you'll potentially need. Best way to pull bullets fast. Does not harm the bullets when setup properly.

Screws into press like a die, cartridge fits in the shell holder and goes up into the "die", there is a caliber specific collet that tightens on to the shank of the bullet. It is a bit like the collet in a Lee LCD. Mine is an RCBS, there is a handle on the top that tightens the collet. Hornady is somewhat different but same principle. Works fast. They can mar the bullet if you use a heavy crimp or if the bullet has cold welded to the case, but I doubt you'll have that issue. I can see Shrapnel's point about thin jacketed varmint bullets, bet you won't have the issue either with the 75's.

Thanks, marring the bullet was my question.




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I don't use it... too many other good options out there.. so why bother...

Book velocity, adjusting for barrel length and such, is my general guide. No free lunch exists.

Like others, I’ve also been bitten by stout loads that were worked up in cooler temps. A strong load of RL17 in a 6.5x47L did not agree with 90 degree days. Ditto for 335 and the 223AI, as others have mentioned. Only primers I remember popping.

Sticking with book speeds, testing in warm months, and trying to lean toward heat-stable powders for “fun” guns has helped.

Sometimes seating the bullets a bit deeper just before you pull them can help, but maybe not much if the cartridges were assembled recently.

Didn't read all this so not sure what your talking about now. Back to the OP's post, I think, seem's to me everyone that reloads push's the limit now and then, nature of the beast. Sometime we fry ourselves! I like to push it but work loads up mid to late spring when outside temps are a bit higher. When it get's hot out I seldom do much shooting so 90* temps don't phase me. I suspect if I shot in the heat I just might find I've pushed the envelope to far also! I can't imagine getting ready for a hunt in 100+* temp! First at 100* I'm normally sitting around somewhere drinking ice tea! Lucky thing probably as I do pust the limit when loading. Another good thing about me is I no longer like it all that cold. if there's a breeze and temp at about 45* to 50* you won't find me out shooting much anymore. Shoot anymore I don't even like hunting in those conditions. Just for grins tried shooting at just under 50* a while back and when I got to my shooting spot the breeze had picked up but was comin from my back. Went ahead and shot and damn near froze my finger's off!

Yeah, they’re only a couple of months old.



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Dang man, that's probably your varmint model too? I'm just glad you are ok!. I know, I've made some remarks about you loading hot, or too hot. It could happen to anyone here, but that is why a lot of us say, start low and "work up". Double check your loads in varying temps as well. I recently had to back off of a damn good load in a new to me 308w, because I was getting stiff bolt lift on a book max load. It brought a tear to my eye because that load shot so damn well. That load was developed in 24 degree temps though. Had to reduce the load from 47gr to 45.5 to find the next good node man!!! But it will be safe, even in the summers heat. You are a good man to admit when you are wrong, and again glad to hear you are not hurt..

I go inertia puller as the way to go also. Have collet puller but have simply ruined to many bullet's with it. Found with the inertia puller you'll mess up the tips if the blow that release's the bullet is to hard. Used to put toilet paper in it to catch the bullet and hope to save it. Now I simply watch the bullet and the last hit or two is softer and bullet doesn hit the bottom.

You guys that use those cheap azzed inertia bullet pullers have some small girl hands too. I've broke a few of them, but I'm used to swinging a man's sized hammer. Collet puller has worked great for me.

Glad you’re okay Pharm.

Funny story, I was wearing eyes and ears, of course. Primers were cratered but bolt lift wasn’t bad. Took a break for awhile, let my nephew take a turn. What I didn’t know was that he had moved my box of shells into the sun. I wasn’t paying attention to it so when it was my turn I just loaded a magazine and got ready to slay a marmot.

Bam! Ignition was loud and I felt something tap my shirt. I looked down and the bolt shroud (aftermarket aluminum) was gone. I ejected the shell and lost it in the grass. Damn.

Started looking for the shroud, didn’t see it anywhere. What’s that in my shirt pocket? There it was. Tried to put it back on but with the lip missing off the firing pin assembly it wouldn’t stay on.

Lucky as hell, the only thing injured was my pride.





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You nailed it Shrapnel.

Hilarious.

Thousands of fast twist .223's not having pressure issues when loaded with 75's and Shrap chooses do bad mouth them when Pharm does something OBVIOUSLY stupid.

Are the 6BR, 6BRA and 6 Dasher doing the shooting world a real injustice Shrap?

LMAO

Ya know Lawrence,

I've never had a load with Blue Dot blow up on me, on a hot day....in a 223 or any other cartridge.

Just thought I'd toss that out there....

Ah, he just has a real hard on for fast twist cartridges right now. Not a damn thing wrong with them. We all know and have told Pharm his hot rodding will catch up to him. At least Pharm is man enough to admit when he fu cked up. Shrap doesn't think he can do wrong... Even though he's dead wrong about fast twist cartridges..

I may delve into that one of these days. Just not there quite yet though..

Lol!!!

I noticed that too. I just thought wow talk about spinning something around. A man is hand-loading a factory rifle 100-150fps over book max and it’s the factory rifles twist rate that’s the problem.

You and the others didn’t really read what I said. I didn’t blame the fast twist for the problem of over loading a cartridge. I did qualify that statement with theory. Yes, I am not a fan of fast twist 223 as it has become the golden boy of many that think it is some magical combination that kills like the hammer of Thor.

The truth is that long range shooting with high BC bullets is done with larger cartridges, the 223 is used in 3 gun or military categories and as such is limited by it’s case capacity to compete in long range shooting other than those disciplines.

All the guys that tout the killing ability of the fast 223 cartridge, I have no doubt have done it, but the message to the neophyte is that he could get the fast twist 223 and magically become Daniel Boone.

There is not a person on this board that has killed more game without a 223 or more varmints with a 223 than I have. I am not posting pictures of holes in paper and no one else is showing the superiority of the 223 with enough experience that doesn’t come from a background of shooting and hunting skill. That, I believe is sending the message to the beginner that the 223 with fast twist is as capable alone as it is without the experienced shooter behind it.

Dead pigs and other critters killed with the 223 are not in question, it is the continual insinuation that a 223 is a long range cartridge, and it can’t possibly compete with a 22-250 sized case or larger with a fast twist to shine beyond the limits of the velocity of a 223 and a heavier bullet…

Glad you're OK. Try using Gordon's Reloading Tool (GRT) to determine pressure. Similar to Quickload but free.

Well went back to the OP’s other thread and used his seating depths and matched the velocity he reported. Hot day and he shot these rounds he should have had a lottery ticket.

2.373 seating



2.477



Predicted to get where he got 2.9 grains over max. 68-71K pressure. That’s without letting them sit in the sun, but it was bound to happen sooner or later. 55K is max I do believe.

I think what most people are saying about fast twist 223’s and what Shrap hears are two very different things. A lot of what Shrap is saying is correct I just don’t know why he’s saying it?….lol. I don’t think anyone is saying it’s the hammer of Thor or will make anyone Daniel Boone. Just as no one is saying it’s better than the 22-250,22-250AI, or 22creedmoor. It just seems like he has a axe to grind and will twist(no pun) and turn things so he can pitch his fit.

He’s not alone by any means though. Guys do the exact same thing about hunting with match bullets anything on a creedmoor case and Trump.

Cartridge : .223 Rem. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .224, 75, Hornady ELD-M 22791
Useable Case Capaci: 25.862 grain H2O = 1.679 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.477 inch = 62.92 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Ramshot TAC *C

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 83 21.36 2445 996 35191 6057 88.0 1.373
-18.0 85 21.89 2505 1045 37651 6241 89.2 1.335
-16.0 87 22.43 2564 1095 40289 6420 90.4 1.294
-14.0 89 22.96 2624 1146 43117 6593 91.5 1.255
-12.0 91 23.50 2683 1199 46151 6760 92.6 1.217
-10.0 93 24.03 2743 1253 49408 6919 93.6 1.181
-08.0 96 24.56 2803 1308 52909 7071 94.5 1.146
-06.0 98 25.10 2862 1364 56675 7214 95.4 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
-04.0 100 25.63 2922 1422 60731 7347 96.2 1.080 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 102 26.17 2981 1480 65104 7471 96.9 1.049 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 104 26.70 3041 1540 69828 7585 97.5 1.019 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 106 27.23 3100 1600 74937 7687 98.1 0.989 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 108 27.77 3159 1662 80473 7778 98.6 0.961 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 110 28.30 3219 1725 86485 7856 99.0 0.934 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 112 28.84 3278 1789 93026 7921 99.4 0.908 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 114 29.37 3337 1854 100163 7972 99.7 0.882 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 104 26.70 3169 1672 82224 7483 99.9 0.953 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 104 26.70 2870 1372 57818 7363 91.7 1.104 ! Near Maximum !

I see about the same on QL. 70-75K give or take, before the heated up ammo..

I’ve killed a pile of deer with a .270WCF. Most with a 140 Berger at 2,950 but several with 130 Sierras and 130 NPT. The .223 with 75’s launched at similar speeds would have had the exact same results as the much heavier .270 bullet.

Is there a limit on how far you should take game with it? Sure. Just like any of the other cartridges. Out to 600 yards that little fugger is a deadly sumbitch though and there isn’t a deer walking this earth that would make me worry I didn’t have enough gun.

It isn’t magic, but it is pretty dang remarkable.

A 223 having the same killing ability at 600yds as a 270 win? BULLSCHITZ

Nobody said that.

Funny story here, a guy I know thought he could hit a deer (nice buck that everyone was chasing) that was on the tree line first shooting light, well he missed but he did manage to hit a cow that he couldnt see behind that deer. Farmer extremely pizzed, cow was on property he couldn’t hunt, so this guy ends up buying the cow (not cheap either) and fills his freezer with beef instead of deer. He decided that shooting deer at 400+ yards wasn’t too damn smart.

Moral of the story, don’t shoot unless you know exactly what’s behind the target.

26 grains.




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I can run it at 26 but guess what you’re still going to be ~65K. Give a minute and I can run it.

No need, I just wanted to be accurate.

I was wrong, but I wasn’t 27 grains wrong.





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Ok here you go, GRT defaults to 31 which is about average.

If your case capacity is 31.0 grains then



Decrease your case capacity 1/2 grain then



Decrease capacity 1 grain



At 31 2K overpressue, 30.5 your at ~60K, 1 grain your ~62K

Now if I had you exact case capacity to the top of the neck I could get closer. No way I would use that load at under 31 and I have seen variances between 29-32 grains dependent on brass manufacture.

Pharm, you've taken some heat on this thread no doubt. It takes someone genuine to step up and say, I fawked up. Good on you as you don't see too many doing it today. This is a lesson to all that eyes and ear protection are a necessity.

I particularly give an eye roll when some people think because it's an AI cartridge gains 200 to 300 ft per second or more because it's not showing traditional pressure sign..... which way too many people think judged by primers..

Hey, it’s pretty easy, I don’t know any of the asshōles on this site, I can be as honest as possible. No risk.




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I always appreciate honesty. It's the ones you know are lying out there azz that get under my skin.

This is all interesting. The last Western manual I have lists 25.8 gr max for the Hornady BTHP in 5.56x45 NATO. Aren't they 65K psi? (Yes, I know the .223 chamber is tighter)

A testament on how strong the Tikka action is.

70k psi shouldn't harm a modern bolt action itself. The case and primer are always the weak link.

Know any of the decent guys?

This is one of the reasons I ask questions on this site if I'm even a little nervous or ignorant about a new cartridge, powder, etc.... there is more experience here than anywhere I've been and I know I'll get reliable info if I ask the right people. I've only been reloading for 50 years now, so I still don't know it all....

Just when you know it all something else pops up and proves you wrong. That’s my problem anyway. Edk

A couple comments:

Shrapnel almost always jumps into these threads, saying he's used H335 for many years in his .223s and never had any problems.

But one thing he doesn't mention is that he HATES hot weather. I have shot PDs and "gophers" (Richardson's ground squirrels) with him many times over the years, and cannot remember ever doing so on a day over about 80 degrees.

Might also mention that I have tested a bunch of powders at temperatures from zero F. to around 100 degrees--and by that I mean in actual temperatures including the rifle, not just chilling or heating the ammo, which only rarely produces similar results. The velocities of the best temp-resistant powders don't change much at all from 70 down to zero, and even somewhat below zero. But they ALL result in faster velocities (and hence higher pressures) at temperatures above 70, usually becoming more obvious around 80.

The more temp-resistant powders, however, do tend to gain less velocity/pressure at over 80 than "standard" powders. Also, even the most temperature-sensitive powders (among which I'd list H335) don't vary much in velocity from temperatures in the 20s to around 80. Or at least none of the presently produced rifle powders I've tested have.

All of this is why I prefer the term temperature-resistant, rather than temperature-insensitive. None of 'em are totally immune to temperature, especially heat.

I agree MD. I won’t shoot 335 over 80 degrees. 2 of my favorite loads in a 223 won’t get used over 90 degrees. 26.5 grains BM and a 52 is a very accurate load, but on a 95 degree day it gave me issues such as stiff bolt lift. Finished that match with a load of 25.8 with no issues. Finished off that 26.5 batch in 70-80 weather with zero issues as usual. My other is 24 grains LT32 and a 52 that has to be backed down to 23.5 at 90+.
So my conclusion was that max or slightly over max loads don’t play well at 90-100 degrees even with temp resistant extreme powders like BM.

This cannot be true because every truck he has, that I'm aware of, has AC and the barrels have been outside of the cab...

And despite his nickname, he doesn't hot rod his loads. Which is what this thread is really all about when we get down to it.

Too dang funny!

I have shot prairie dogs with H335 in weather above 90 degrees and still had no pressure issues. I am talking about real life experience and not surmised or hearsay. Mule Deer has a selective memory and likes to bring up instances where he looks as good as possible, he does have an image he needs to keep up.

Yes, John and I have shot a lot together and he would be amiss if he didn’t admit that I do have good guns and hit more than I miss with 223’s loaded with H335. John also is the one that made the sarcastic statement about how all the trucks driving around Montana with cracked windshields was due to cartridges loaded with H335 and cracked those windshields from cooking off in the heat.

John will also remark how I sight guns in on rocks and not always paper targets. He is also right about that, but it produces the same results that bsahunter does with all his targets.

Nobody else but John and HawkI have any ability to comment on what or how I shoot.

There is not a person on this board that has killed more game without a 223 or more varmints with a 223 than I have.

NOW THERE IS A BOLD STATEMENT. BOTH ON GAME AND DOGS.

Bulllshitt

The only thing that stands out in almost everything he posts is his arrogance……

Very small world false arrogance.

Replacement firing pin assembly arrived today. Waiting on the fancy bolt before I put her back together.





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