Just looking to have a high quality, accurate, reliable rifle. Like you said, primarily an all around North American rifle, including brown bears. I want there to be no doubt (as much as possible) it will function if I get into a situation though.
I want a custom rifle so that I can pick and choose all the details. I know me and I'd just end up modifying just about everything on the factory rifle anyway.
I certainly don't have a unlimited budget but say you did, and could build it the way you wanted, would you still use the Model 70?
I’ve got no issues with the 70 Classic or P64 worked over by a good smith. I have a Defiance with CRF and 3 pos safety but really all that cuts out is the machining that’s usually done to a 70 action.
If I couldn’t use a P64 or Classic I’d likely try to get my hooks into one of Darcy Echols LX1 actions if money was no object.
I certainly don't have a unlimited budget but say you did, and could build it the way you wanted, would you still use the Model 70?
I’ve got no issues with the 70 Classic or P64 worked over by a good smith. I have a Defiance with CRF and 3 pos safety but really all that cuts out is the machining that’s usually done to a 70 action.
If I couldn’t use a P64 or Classic I’d likely try to get my hooks into one of Darcy Echols LX1 actions if money was no object.
I've hunted, and continue to hunt, almost exclusively with pre-64 model 70s. Some of my hunting is almost in my backyard calling coyotes, but my last several trips have been to Alaska. My last was a year ago on Kodiak for brown bear, which I was successful on. I can only speak for myself, however I suspect others share my opinions. There are a couple reasons I prefer pre-64s. Any action is susceptible to some problems, however when I closely analyze the design of the pre-64, and to a somewhat lesser extent, the post-64 CRF, 2 things are true: the individual components are simple, proven over decades of hard use, and rugged. I'm talking about trigger design, safety design, feed system, one piece bolt, etc. All those things add up to a less likelihood of breakage or other failure. Second, the over-all functional system works really, really well. When I hunt Alaska, I hunt with my son, who is a licensed guide. He carries a post-64 CRF .375 and likes it a lot, but has only used it a few years. However, pre-64s in Alaska, especially .375s have been a staple for many, many years. When you hunt in places like Kodiak, you appreciate reliability more than just reading about it. So that's just my 2 cents worth. Good Luck.
I recently had this conversation with a good friend, I was an avid collector of Model 70s when they went back to CRF in the 90s, had many rebarreled and restocked by a very good smith. Recently, and the reason my friend called me out, I've been building rifles DIY on Defiance actions (modified Rem 700 clones of some sort). He asked why I'm not doing as I have with the Model 70s.
I've I were building a rifle for dangerous game in a wilderness hunt environment, Model 70 would be my easy choice, simplicity of design and function, big parts, durable trigger, not much changed since designed in 1898 by Mauser. Properly set up, the Win CRF action is hard to be for dangerous game.
On the other hand, for an accurate and easy to shoot hunting rifle, I like the modern Rem 700 clones from Defiance, Impact, Terminus or others. The new, modern receivers, are so well made with exaction tolerances that it's easy for someone like me to gather the parts and put something together and produce a rifle that shoots 1/4" at 100, my 6.5 CM just did.
So, like others have said, it's all about what you intend to do with it.
I would not choose a model 70 pre-64 or classic for the following reasons. 1) far fewer after market parts available. 2) Not known for their accuracy, I am not saying they can't be accurate but most people who build all-around rifles want them to be very accurate 3/4 moa or less and preferrably closer to 1/2 moa. I can't see selecting a cartridge like the 300 PRC and then putting it on a Win Mod 70 3) to the extent you use a cartridge not originally designed for your donor action, fixing feeding problems is more involved.
if you are not going to to use a high end action, then I would use a Remington 700 or a Savage.
If you think "Remington 700s" are unlreliable you might want to ask yourself then why are they the chosen platform buy more LE aganecies than any other and why the have been the basis for both the USMC and US Army snip rile for since the 1960s without modification to the extractor.
If you are a fan of CRF, you may wish to consider that they are really Controlled Round Extraction; i.e., I changed my mind during the bolt cycle process. Observe carefully on various push feeds the postion of the cartridge when it is released from the rails or magazine, it generally almost 1/2 way into the chamber. That cardige is going only 1 place and that is into the chamber.
Of course this my opinion, others will have others. Unfortunately, the gun industry is full of zealots.
Last edited by Mike_Dettorre; 06/23/23.
Internet analysis: 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact
Fools & fanatics are always so certain and wise people are always so questioning
It is worth having this conversation with the gunsmith you want to build your rifle. Getting into the specifications of said rifle will help answer your question. That being said there are a lot of "real" custom rifles built on model 70 actions.
If you are right handed, find a Pre-64 featherweight .30-06 in good condition. Drop it into a McMillan Hunter Edge stock. Go kill stuff, mice to moose to brown bear...
I recently had this conversation with a good friend, I was an avid collector of Model 70s when they went back to CRF in the 90s, had many rebarreled and restocked by a very good smith. Recently, and the reason my friend called me out, I've been building rifles DIY on Defiance actions (modified Rem 700 clones of some sort). He asked why I'm not doing as I have with the Model 70s.
I've I were building a rifle for dangerous game in a wilderness hunt environment, Model 70 would be my easy choice, simplicity of design and function, big parts, durable trigger, not much changed since designed in 1898 by Mauser. Properly set up, the Win CRF action is hard to be for dangerous game.
On the other hand, for an accurate and easy to shoot hunting rifle, I like the modern Rem 700 clones from Defiance, Impact, Terminus or others. The new, modern receivers, are so well made with exaction tolerances that it's easy for someone like me to gather the parts and put something together and produce a rifle that shoots 1/4" at 100, my 6.5 CM just did.
So, like others have said, it's all about what you intend to do with it.
This is me. I have multiple customs built on M70 Classics and if my life might depend on it, I’m taking one of them in .338 wm or .375HH. But when I want to build a precise shooting instrument with minimal fuss, I buy a clone and a prefit barrel because I can build the entire rifle in my garage in less than an hour.
I certainly don't have a unlimited budget but say you did, and could build it the way you wanted, would you still use the Model 70?
I’ve got no issues with the 70 Classic or P64 worked over by a good smith. I have a Defiance with CRF and 3 pos safety but really all that cuts out is the machining that’s usually done to a 70 action.
If I couldn’t use a P64 or Classic I’d likely try to get my hooks into one of Darcy Echols LX1 actions if money was no object.
This is where my thoughts were headed. If I could swing it the LX1 would be real temptation.
I've hunted, and continue to hunt, almost exclusively with pre-64 model 70s. Some of my hunting is almost in my backyard calling coyotes, but my last several trips have been to Alaska. My last was a year ago on Kodiak for brown bear, which I was successful on. I can only speak for myself, however I suspect others share my opinions. There are a couple reasons I prefer pre-64s. Any action is susceptible to some problems, however when I closely analyze the design of the pre-64, and to a somewhat lesser extent, the post-64 CRF, 2 things are true: the individual components are simple, proven over decades of hard use, and rugged. I'm talking about trigger design, safety design, feed system, one piece bolt, etc. All those things add up to a less likelihood of breakage or other failure. Second, the over-all functional system works really, really well. When I hunt Alaska, I hunt with my son, who is a licensed guide. He carries a post-64 CRF .375 and likes it a lot, but has only used it a few years. However, pre-64s in Alaska, especially .375s have been a staple for many, many years. When you hunt in places like Kodiak, you appreciate reliability more than just reading about it. So that's just my 2 cents worth. Good Luck.
I recently had this conversation with a good friend, I was an avid collector of Model 70s when they went back to CRF in the 90s, had many rebarreled and restocked by a very good smith. Recently, and the reason my friend called me out, I've been building rifles DIY on Defiance actions (modified Rem 700 clones of some sort). He asked why I'm not doing as I have with the Model 70s.
I've I were building a rifle for dangerous game in a wilderness hunt environment, Model 70 would be my easy choice, simplicity of design and function, big parts, durable trigger, not much changed since designed in 1898 by Mauser. Properly set up, the Win CRF action is hard to be for dangerous game.
On the other hand, for an accurate and easy to shoot hunting rifle, I like the modern Rem 700 clones from Defiance, Impact, Terminus or others. The new, modern receivers, are so well made with exaction tolerances that it's easy for someone like me to gather the parts and put something together and produce a rifle that shoots 1/4" at 100, my 6.5 CM just did.
So, like others have said, it's all about what you intend to do with it.
What smith did you use to re-barrel the Model 70 actions?
Just looking to have a high quality, accurate, reliable rifle. Like you said, primarily an all around North American rifle, including brown bears. I want there to be no doubt (as much as possible) it will function if I get into a situation though.
I want a custom rifle so that I can pick and choose all the details. I know me and I'd just end up modifying just about everything on the factory rifle anyway.
And that is where the fault lies. A good pre 64 or classic needs nothing except for a proper glass bedding job and trigger job. After that, it's picking the right scope/mount and developing a load.
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
I've hunted, and continue to hunt, almost exclusively with pre-64 model 70s. Some of my hunting is almost in my backyard calling coyotes, but my last several trips have been to Alaska. My last was a year ago on Kodiak for brown bear, which I was successful on. I can only speak for myself, however I suspect others share my opinions. There are a couple reasons I prefer pre-64s. Any action is susceptible to some problems, however when I closely analyze the design of the pre-64, and to a somewhat lesser extent, the post-64 CRF, 2 things are true: the individual components are simple, proven over decades of hard use, and rugged. I'm talking about trigger design, safety design, feed system, one piece bolt, etc. All those things add up to a less likelihood of breakage or other failure. Second, the over-all functional system works really, really well. When I hunt Alaska, I hunt with my son, who is a licensed guide. He carries a post-64 CRF .375 and likes it a lot, but has only used it a few years. However, pre-64s in Alaska, especially .375s have been a staple for many, many years. When you hunt in places like Kodiak, you appreciate reliability more than just reading about it. So that's just my 2 cents worth. Good Luck.
Great post. All the same things can be said about my favorite hunting rifles: The m1917 properly sporterized. Tough as nails and I'd trust my life on them. Some of you guys are talking about pushfeed rifles, like the Rem 700 clones. F that. Pass the Tikka please and make it a factory one.
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
I prefer the pre-64 for 30/06 length cartridges. The classic for H&H length cartridges and a Mauser 98 for a serious , rough use, hunting rifle. I prefer the pre-64 over the classic, except for longer cartridges (including the 300 Win Mag). I have seen some rifles which were well used, rugged hunting rifles and which impressed me at the time. All were Model 98's. The first belonged to Val Geist. It was a 7x57, pretty plain, which was built by Al Beisen. That rifle had probably shot more sheep than I have seen. It was pretty scarred up but still shot and functioned perfectly. Another, also a Beisen, belonged to an Alberta guide. It was a 308 Norma and nearly a twin to the 7x57 belonging to Dr. Geist. A third Mauser was a Holland&Holland in 458 Winchester. Again a plain, no nonsense rifle. By the way, all three of these rifles retained the original 2 stage trigger, The two Beisens used Beuhler safeties while the H&H used the Mauser safety. The prettiest, smoothest, American classic rifles I have seen were built on Winchester Model 70 actions. The term, "American Classic" pretty well describes the Model 70, now that I think about it. The model 70's are not with out their flaws and they usually need some work, but that's why we gunsmith, right? GD
I prefer the pre-64 for 30/06 length cartridges. The classic for H&H length cartridges and a Mauser 98 for a serious , rough use, hunting rifle. I prefer the pre-64 over the classic, except for longer cartridges (including the 300 Win Mag). I have seen some rifles which were well used, rugged hunting rifles and which impressed me at the time. All were Model 98's. The first belonged to Val Geist. It was a 7x57, pretty plain, which was built by Al Beisen. That rifle had probably shot more sheep than I have seen. It was pretty scarred up but still shot and functioned perfectly. Another, also a Beisen, belonged to an Alberta guide. It was a 308 Norma and nearly a twin to the 7x57 belonging to Dr. Geist. A third Mauser was a Holland&Holland in 458 Winchester. Again a plain, no nonsense rifle. By the way, all three of these rifles retained the original 2 stage trigger, The two Beisens used Beuhler safeties while the H&H used the Mauser safety. The prettiest, smoothest, American classic rifles I have seen were built on Winchester Model 70 actions. The term, "American Classic" pretty well describes the Model 70, now that I think about it. The model 70's are not with out their flaws and they usually need some work, but that's why we gunsmith, right? GD
I'm asking because I don't know all the differences. Why do you prefer the Pre-64 over the Classic (CRF manufactured in the 90s) for the shorter cartridges? Are they a more reliable/better design in some way? What are the differences between the two (from a design point)?
If a man is a hunter rather than a bench shooter/rifleman, I see no reason to demand better than 1 moa of your rifle choice. Giving a few minutes for the howls of dissent die down...then a hunter should consider his familiarity with Murphy's Law, those intimately acquainted with Murphy will look no further than classic 1898 Mauser...with the least amount of gunsmith aftermarket "improvements" as possible. Keep in mind the court awards for patent infringements from the previous century, Winchester, the US 1903, the Enfield 1914 (saved by the outbreak of WW1). Keep in mind the selected preference of basic barreled actions, Mauser and Mannlicher, by the finest gunmakers in the world, the British houses. Just one man's opinion.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
If you are right handed, find a Pre-64 featherweight .30-06 in good condition. Drop it into a McMillan Hunter Edge stock. Go kill stuff, mice to moose to brown bear...
This is where I ended up, basically. I found a nice enough p64 in .270, put it in a McMillan I had on hand, put a z3 on it and I'm about done. Glass bedding and I will be all done. My LGS builds some amazing custom rifles but after looking at the options I just couldn't see the advantage for me. YMMV
"Miss Jean Louise, stand up. Your father's passin.'"
I prefer the pre-64 for 30/06 length cartridges. The classic for H&H length cartridges and a Mauser 98 for a serious , rough use, hunting rifle. I prefer the pre-64 over the classic, except for longer cartridges (including the 300 Win Mag). I have seen some rifles which were well used, rugged hunting rifles and which impressed me at the time. All were Model 98's. The first belonged to Val Geist. It was a 7x57, pretty plain, which was built by Al Beisen. That rifle had probably shot more sheep than I have seen. It was pretty scarred up but still shot and functioned perfectly. Another, also a Beisen, belonged to an Alberta guide. It was a 308 Norma and nearly a twin to the 7x57 belonging to Dr. Geist. A third Mauser was a Holland&Holland in 458 Winchester. Again a plain, no nonsense rifle. By the way, all three of these rifles retained the original 2 stage trigger, The two Beisens used Beuhler safeties while the H&H used the Mauser safety. The prettiest, smoothest, American classic rifles I have seen were built on Winchester Model 70 actions. The term, "American Classic" pretty well describes the Model 70, now that I think about it. The model 70's are not with out their flaws and they usually need some work, but that's why we gunsmith, right? GD
I'm asking because I don't know all the differences. Why do you prefer the Pre-64 over the Classic (CRF manufactured in the 90s) for the shorter cartridges? Are they a more reliable/better design in some way? What are the differences between the two (from a design point)?
There are a couple of differences which cause me to favor the pre-64. The first is that the feed rails are milled into the receiver. They feed better without alteration and respond well to polishing. In older models, the bolt stop is designed to transfer impact to the receiver rather than just to the pin. I prefer the little coil spring to actuate the bolt stop. In truth, I much prefer the Mauser bolt stop. The pre-64 trigger parts usually fit a lot better. The extraction cam on the pre-64 provides more primary extraction. This has little to do with the design, it's just better executed. The pre-64 has a full thread for the barrel attachment. The classic is interrupted. This does not apply to the newest Model 70's in which the thread diameter and pitch was changed to eliminate the issues cause by the interrupted thread in the WSM chamberings. For the longer cartridges, the classic is better simply because it is longer. GD
I prefer the pre-64 for 30/06 length cartridges. The classic for H&H length cartridges and a Mauser 98 for a serious , rough use, hunting rifle. I prefer the pre-64 over the classic, except for longer cartridges (including the 300 Win Mag). I have seen some rifles which were well used, rugged hunting rifles and which impressed me at the time. All were Model 98's. The first belonged to Val Geist. It was a 7x57, pretty plain, which was built by Al Beisen. That rifle had probably shot more sheep than I have seen. It was pretty scarred up but still shot and functioned perfectly. Another, also a Beisen, belonged to an Alberta guide. It was a 308 Norma and nearly a twin to the 7x57 belonging to Dr. Geist. A third Mauser was a Holland&Holland in 458 Winchester. Again a plain, no nonsense rifle. By the way, all three of these rifles retained the original 2 stage trigger, The two Beisens used Beuhler safeties while the H&H used the Mauser safety. The prettiest, smoothest, American classic rifles I have seen were built on Winchester Model 70 actions. The term, "American Classic" pretty well describes the Model 70, now that I think about it. The model 70's are not with out their flaws and they usually need some work, but that's why we gunsmith, right? GD
Ha! I sold Val Geist a bunch of 7x57 brass to feed that rifle. I wonder where that rifle ended up?
For years the high end gunbuilders insisted that the pre64 M70 and 98’s were the finest actions on which to build a serious hunting rifle. This started just after WW2 when those were the only choices. Both were CRF and builders insisted that you would get killed by bears lions etc if you used anything else. Remember there were no other alternatives.
These standards were set by Jack O’Connor, Elmer Keith and their favorite gunbuilders Biesen Fisher Burgess Goens Henriksen etc. Also the British insisted that a Mauser was the only bolt that was “proper”. Ruark and Hemingway wrote about Selby and other old time PH’s who used actions of their era.
As a young “gun nut” I ordered my first fine custom at age 20 and got a 98 based on the reading I consumed. Thereafter I got a few more. I did this for years and years. Then something happened.
I wanted a really light rifle for sheep hunting and bought the first two M700 Ti’s that showed up at my local Sportsmans WH. Previously I looked down at any serious rifleman who would consider owning such a thing. Oh course I had zero experience upon which to base that conclusion.
For brevity I will state what I have concluded. The 700 clones are just as reliable as any CRF in terms of functionality. Mechanically they are simpler. Because of the rear tang angle they are not as svelte as a M70. But for a DG rifle they can be just as reliable. Warren Page built his favorite DG rifle on a M721. Mine is built on a PF M70. Generally the 700 type are more accurate and precise.
I don’t have a limit on what I will spend on my hunting rifles. Before any of you accuse me of being a rich snob you must know that I don’t own a bunch of rifles I don’t use. Actually I limit myself to 3 but currently own 2. I still use one of those first Ti’s and my 375 PF M70. I have owned an Echols Legend, multiple Biesen, Fisher, and Milliron 98’s with Burgess metal.
“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”. Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Posted by Brad.
For brevity I will state what I have concluded. The 700 clones are just as reliable as any CRF in terms of functionality. Mechanically they are simpler. Because of the rear tang angle they are not as svelte as a M70. But for a DG rifle they can be just as reliable. .
(snicker).... Teehee...
Enjoy..
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69 Pro-Constitution. LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
I prefer the pre-64 for 30/06 length cartridges. The classic for H&H length cartridges and a Mauser 98 for a serious , rough use, hunting rifle. I prefer the pre-64 over the classic, except for longer cartridges (including the 300 Win Mag). I have seen some rifles which were well used, rugged hunting rifles and which impressed me at the time. All were Model 98's. The first belonged to Val Geist. It was a 7x57, pretty plain, which was built by Al Beisen. That rifle had probably shot more sheep than I have seen. It was pretty scarred up but still shot and functioned perfectly. Another, also a Beisen, belonged to an Alberta guide. It was a 308 Norma and nearly a twin to the 7x57 belonging to Dr. Geist. A third Mauser was a Holland&Holland in 458 Winchester. Again a plain, no nonsense rifle. By the way, all three of these rifles retained the original 2 stage trigger, The two Beisens used Beuhler safeties while the H&H used the Mauser safety. The prettiest, smoothest, American classic rifles I have seen were built on Winchester Model 70 actions. The term, "American Classic" pretty well describes the Model 70, now that I think about it. The model 70's are not with out their flaws and they usually need some work, but that's why we gunsmith, right? GD
Ha! I sold Val Geist a bunch of 7x57 brass to feed that rifle. I wonder where that rifle ended up?
Hopefully, someone is still packing it in the mountains. GD
A well done 98 or M70 is very very good. No question. The pre 64 M70’s reworked by GREYDOG are superb. They are the product of skilled craftsmanship. They have soul.
The good rifles built on 700 clones usually don’t exhibit that level of craftsmanship. Rather they are the product precision manufacturing and cnc barrel fitting and epoxy. But they do work. Of course an incompetent builder can screw up anything.
I laugh at the idea that a bolt 375 needs four in the magazine rather than three in order to be a proper DG rifle. With three down and one in the chamber there are a total of four available. The same characters will tell you the ultimate DG outfit is a double which, at last count, gives the intrepid user two shots.
My experience is that a hunter who needs one up plus four in the magazine to get the job done actually needs to work on his marksmanship. The guy who doesn’t know how to load a PF magazine doesn’t know how to load a CRF magazine either.
These discussions never talk about the guy holding the rifle. For example a knucklehead can and will short stroke anything.
Last edited by RinB; 06/24/23.
“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”. Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Posted by Brad.
I prefer the pre-64 for 30/06 length cartridges. The classic for H&H length cartridges and a Mauser 98 for a serious , rough use, hunting rifle. I prefer the pre-64 over the classic, except for longer cartridges (including the 300 Win Mag). I have seen some rifles which were well used, rugged hunting rifles and which impressed me at the time. All were Model 98's. The first belonged to Val Geist. It was a 7x57, pretty plain, which was built by Al Beisen. That rifle had probably shot more sheep than I have seen. It was pretty scarred up but still shot and functioned perfectly. Another, also a Beisen, belonged to an Alberta guide. It was a 308 Norma and nearly a twin to the 7x57 belonging to Dr. Geist. A third Mauser was a Holland&Holland in 458 Winchester. Again a plain, no nonsense rifle. By the way, all three of these rifles retained the original 2 stage trigger, The two Beisens used Beuhler safeties while the H&H used the Mauser safety. The prettiest, smoothest, American classic rifles I have seen were built on Winchester Model 70 actions. The term, "American Classic" pretty well describes the Model 70, now that I think about it. The model 70's are not with out their flaws and they usually need some work, but that's why we gunsmith, right? GD
Ha! I sold Val Geist a bunch of 7x57 brass to feed that rifle. I wonder where that rifle ended up?
Hopefully, someone is still packing it in the mountains. GD
I found it! The current owner says it is Earl Milliron stocked. Interesting.
I like them both. Both have the best hunting trigger designed. 3 position safety is a thing of beauty. I have more experience with the Classics myself. I just got my first Pre-64 this spring. I think that the part selection is a little bit better with the Classics. Classics come in true short action lengths and also come in stainless, which aren't available in the Pre-64. I think the Pre-64 makes a nicer true custom on a woodstock build. Stainless Classic is a great choice for a synthetic and coated all weather build.
Don't overlook the Kimber Montana 84M for a short action build if you don't mind a blind magazine and want a light weight CRF rifle. Take a M70 and scale it down, then you've got the 84M. Awesome little rifles.
-Matt
"The proof of the whisky is in the drinking, the proof of the rifle is in the shooting."
pathfinder76 Some of the rifles which look like they have Milliron stocks were done by Russ Leonard who was a sales rep for some of the gun/scope companies in the 1960’s. I believe he represented Leupold and Hornady. He was an early fan of 7mm’s and used a 7-06. There is a great picture of him in an old Hornady book.
Milliron told me that his “racy classic” was developed from stocks made by Leonard and with Leonard’s input and approval. Eleanor O’Connor’s small ring 7x57 was stocked by Leonard and is an early version of Milliron’s racy pattern. I actually have a semi inlet that Earl did for me many moons ago. Really nice.
“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”. Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Posted by Brad.
I found it! The current owner says it is Earl Milliron stocked. Interesting.[/quote] That is interesting. I could swear he told me it was a Beisen. No matter, it was a well-used and very practical hunting rifle. I can't honestly recall why he had brought the rifle in to me. GD
I have a model 30 action which has been sitting in the drawer for thirty years. I'm undecided on what to do with it. I replaced the bolt handle, in preparation for starting to build something, but there it sits. I originally planned on a 30 Newton, but I might just fit a common 30/06 barrel instead. GD
I like how some guys will cite guides in Alaska as a reference, most of those guides are about as gundummy as your Fudd neighbor and don't know any better than "because some African PH said so" and most of those guys are stuck in the past and refuse to advance beyond a firewood stocked Win 70 in 375 H&H and only shoot at game inside of 100 yards, and believe that nobody on the planet should hunt any other way
I've put 40 years of hunting in Alaska and have yet to kill anything with a CRF rifle, all 700's and that includes brown/grizzly bears... have yet to experience any kind of feeding/extraction failures the chicken littles keep talking about
"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants".
I have 1 classic and several Pre 64s. I didn't give much thought between the CRF and push feed idea until I was trying to quietly load my push feed Winchester while deer hunting. By slowly working the action with the barrel pointed up the cartridge fell out of the action and onto the rocks. The only push feed I have bought since is a Remington in .220 Swift.
I am a model 70 guy and my main hunting rifle for the past few decades has been a ss model 70 classic in 300 ultra mag wearing a Echols legend edge stock, Rock #3 spout and Jewell trigger. The problem with model 70's is there are few smiths that are good at working on them and they will never make light rifles because the action itself is pretty heavy. The classics also have terrible triggers made of cheaply cast parts. Same story with the extractors on many of them. My gun wears a Williams extractor and a Williams SS Oberndorf style bottom metal, because the factory parts were just cheesy. Also be aware that the latter NH classics were mostly junk from a fit, finish, and machining stand point. The BACO guns are much better in this regard.
Interesting you say that about the trigger. I had this rifle built several years ago by “greydog” and had him install an MRC stainless steel trigger. Same design as the Model 70, and it does not appear to be cast.
Obviously because personal preference is of more importance than reality.
That's the explanation for why CRF is needed....because some old guy said so.
Its a non-factor concerning reliability in modern bolt actions
So can we agree that a CRF rifle can be every bit as reliable as a PF?
So we can agree that PF is every bit as reliable as CRF? Which makes it pointless
Since the CRF came first we CAN agree that they’re both reliable and the push feed is NOT better so that would make the push feed the pointless non-improvement over the CRF. 😉
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
Obviously because personal preference is of more importance than reality.
That's the explanation for why CRF is needed....because some old guy said so.
Its a non-factor concerning reliability in modern bolt actions
So can we agree that a CRF rifle can be every bit as reliable as a PF?
So we can agree that PF is every bit as reliable as CRF? Which makes it pointless
Since the CRF came first we CAN agree that they’re both reliable and the push feed is NOT better so that would make the push feed the pointless non-improvement over the CRF. 😉
But the push feed Remington 700 is certainly better in certain areas. Gas handling and accuracy being two of them.
Interesting you say that about the trigger. I had this rifle built several years ago by “greydog” and had him install an MRC stainless steel trigger. Same design as the Model 70, and it does not appear to be cast.
The Model 70 classic trigger is most certainly cast. Metal injection molded to be specific. Even when a decent Smith stones them they are not great and I have had several done by competent model 70 smith's. I can't speak to MRC triggers, but the receiver on the MRC is cast so I woukd be very suprised if the trigger parts are not cast as well.
Interesting you say that about the trigger. I had this rifle built several years ago by “greydog” and had him install an MRC stainless steel trigger. Same design as the Model 70, and it does not appear to be cast.
The Model 70 classic trigger is most certainly cast. Metal injection molded to be specific. Even when a decent Smith stones them they are not great and I have had several done by competent model 70 smith's. I can't speak to MRC triggers, but the receiver on the MRC is cast so I woukd be very suprised if the trigger parts are not cast as well.
Interesting you say that about the trigger. I had this rifle built several years ago by “greydog” and had him install an MRC stainless steel trigger. Same design as the Model 70, and it does not appear to be cast.
Wonder rifle! What chambering? #2 contour bbl? Thanks!
Interesting you say that about the trigger. I had this rifle built several years ago by “greydog” and had him install an MRC stainless steel trigger. Same design as the Model 70, and it does not appear to be cast.
Wonder rifle! What chambering? #2 contour bbl? Thanks!
Thanks! It is a 7mm Remington Magnum. The barrel is a Benchmark in a #2 Douglas contour
Interesting you say that about the trigger. I had this rifle built several years ago by “greydog” and had him install an MRC stainless steel trigger. Same design as the Model 70, and it does not appear to be cast.
The Model 70 classic trigger is most certainly cast. Metal injection molded to be specific. Even when a decent Smith stones them they are not great and I have had several done by competent model 70 smith's. I can't speak to MRC triggers, but the receiver on the MRC is cast so I woukd be very suprised if the trigger parts are not cast as well.
Yes, I’m aware that the OEM trigger is cast. I do, however, disagree that it can’t be exceptional. I have a rifle built by Mark Penrod with a trigger that will rival just about anything.
Can anyone tell me if there is a difference in the Model 70 Classics with "Winchester Trademark" on the actions vs "Winchester Trademark Licensed from Olin Corp" on the action?
Both have "Made in New Haven CT" stamped on the barrel but not sure if both are actually Classic Stainless models.
Besides that, are there any differences in the rifles?
I've hunted, and continue to hunt, almost exclusively with pre-64 model 70s. Some of my hunting is almost in my backyard calling coyotes, but my last several trips have been to Alaska. My last was a year ago on Kodiak for brown bear, which I was successful on. I can only speak for myself, however I suspect others share my opinions. There are a couple reasons I prefer pre-64s. Any action is susceptible to some problems, however when I closely analyze the design of the pre-64, and to a somewhat lesser extent, the post-64 CRF, 2 things are true: the individual components are simple, proven over decades of hard use, and rugged. I'm talking about trigger design, safety design, feed system, one piece bolt, etc. All those things add up to a less likelihood of breakage or other failure. Second, the over-all functional system works really, really well. When I hunt Alaska, I hunt with my son, who is a licensed guide. He carries a post-64 CRF .375 and likes it a lot, but has only used it a few years. However, pre-64s in Alaska, especially .375s have been a staple for many, many years. When you hunt in places like Kodiak, you appreciate reliability more than just reading about it. So that's just my 2 cents worth. Good Luck.
The the post-64 CRF M70 does not have a one piece bolt. At least my 375 H&H and 416 Rem don't. My 416 bolt was sent to Alaska for a TIG fix.
The MRC trigger parts do not appear to be MIM'd, and are nicely done. The Winchester classic part are, but I have never found them too difficult to tune into a decent trigger. My best prone rifle is built on a 1965 Model 70. The trigger pulls 18 OZ, the safety works, and I can slam the bolt. Seems OK. GD
Depends on you criteria Accuracy a custom action is tough to beat An all around big game hunting rifle for reliability A mod 70 pre or classic is tough to beat
If you are right handed, find a Pre-64 featherweight .30-06 in good condition. Drop it into a McMillan Hunter Edge stock. Go kill stuff, mice to moose to brown bear...
This is where I ended up, basically. I found a nice enough p64 in .270, put it in a McMillan I had on hand, put a z3 on it and I'm about done. Glass bedding and I will be all done. My LGS builds some amazing custom rifles but after looking at the options I just couldn't see the advantage for me. YMMV
It's as simple at this right here^^^
Someone was saying pre 64 model 70's aren't accurate. That guy doesn't have much experience with them:
Sometimes all we can do is shake our heads and move on...
My fwt 30-06, which is glass bedded in its original stock, and the trigger fine tuned is capable of fine accuracy as well:
My newest 270 fwt shows some damn fine promise:
Shoots 1 moa with factory ammo:
And sub moa (for 3 shots) out to 400 yards with blunt low bc pills:
When I get some more time and when it cools down a bit, I'll work up some loads for this new 270 and see how well it really shoots. Its brother, that I picked up on the same day, shoots a thrown together load pretty well:
But hey, old model 70's don't shoot well do they? Right!
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
This is my Win 70 Classic switch barrel Magnum. The barrels are 338 Win Mag / 7mm Rem Mag. I built it as an experiment with the spring loaded tapered plunger in the recoil lug. The barrels return to 0 as intended with the 7mm at 3/10 and the 338 at .45 inches at 100. A Japan optics scope for each barrel, using Warne tactical bases and tactical QC rings. The scopes also retain 0. The choice of the control feed was very intentional. In the poor picture you can see the spanner hole in the upper barrel and the plug hole the the barrel threads. The barrels can be changed out in a hotel room with the wrench as shown.
“To expect defeat is nine-tenths of defeat itself. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is best to plan for all eventualities then believe in success, and only cross the failure bridge if you come to it." Francis Marion - The Swamp Fox
If you are right handed, find a Pre-64 featherweight .30-06 in good condition. Drop it into a McMillan Hunter Edge stock. Go kill stuff, mice to moose to brown bear...
This is where I ended up, basically. I found a nice enough p64 in .270, put it in a McMillan I had on hand, put a z3 on it and I'm about done. Glass bedding and I will be all done. My LGS builds some amazing custom rifles but after looking at the options I just couldn't see the advantage for me. YMMV
I built a twin to your rifle several years ago. Had a Lyman 48 set up on it. 1957 DOM only a couple months off my birth date. Foolishly sold it when I got on a “nothing but left handers” kick…
I got a couple pics of my receiver back from Chad at LRI if anyone wants to post them for me. He is doing the bolt now. Would need PM with outside email addy.
I got a couple pics of my receiver back from Chad at LRI if anyone wants to post them for me. He is doing the bolt now. Would need PM with outside email addy.
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