Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Finding Mature Bulls on Public Land

Several states have tried deer antler restrictions and gave up on them.They found it put to much presser on the older bucks and the younger ones were doing the breeding. Colorado tried it, did a half dozen studies and finally came up with the idea they were killing too many deer. They went to draw only mature bucks started to come back.

Elk antler point restrictions work though, mostly because cows are already bred before rifle season. We would see a lot more bigger bulls in rifle season if Colorado cut the one month archery season to maybe two weeks.That is when mature bulls are most vulnerable. IMO there should be no elk hunting in peak elk rut

Deer or elk though are managed best by cutting doe and cow tags or increasing them to control numbers. Unfortunately Colorado manages their wildlife for dollars and politics rather than biology

Texas got their antler restrictions right I think in regards to not “high- grading” (forestry term meaning taking all the good and leaving the poor quality specimens).

A legal buck in any county here with antler restrictions includes any buck with antlers outside the ears (13” + inside spread) or any buck with at least one unbranched antler (a spike buck). By allowing each hunter to shoot spikes, we are still putting pressure on younger bucks, theoretically with poorer genetics, while allowing the younger bucks with branched antlers more time to live and grow.

A hunting license here comes with 5 WT deer tags and each county has its own specific regulations. 5 deer counties will typically have a 2-3 buck limit with at least one of those bucks being a spike. Hunter’s can also use all 5 tags on does if they like, or shoot spikes for all of their given buck tags. There is no doubt in my mind that the system has worked as I have watched the overall quality of deer increase since the inception of those regulations.

The unit I hunt in Montana requires that bulls have 6” brow tines. I’d bet my bottom dollar that if they increased that to at least 4 tines on each antler like you have in CO, and allowed the shooting of inferior spikes, I quality would improve surprisingly quick.

Given the suspected 1:10 ratio that has been mentioned a couple of times for MT regarding elk, I’d think a few more cows could be harvested, but I suppose that has more to do with overall herd numbers and the goals for that unit.

I think one hole in that theory is “inferior” spikes. Whether or not the rule holds true for deer has been hashed out on here and other forums a thousand times with no consensus. But I believe that a bull elk normally grows a set of spikes for his first antlers more often than not. I’ve seen hundreds of spike bulls and I can count the number of fork horns and tiny 3Xs on one hand.

Colorado’s antler restrictions realistically only protect spikes. The rule, at least in the unit I hunt, is 4 on a side or a 5” brow tine. Very rare to see a branch antlered bull that doesn’t have a brow longer than 5”.

No doubt that the spike theory was a quite murky. There was even a very comprehensive study, I think in Texas, that sustained very strict harvest parameters for many years. The conclusion was that harvesting deer based on antler characteristics had no effect on the genetics of the herd.

But, as SS stated, antler restrictions often lead to increased pressure on the better animals, letting the smaller ones go.

An “inferior” spike is hard to define, especially if the typical antlers on a 1.5 yr old bull are spikes. Perhaps spikes under a certain length could be a good metric. My experience with elk is so limited that I don’t know what a typical set of spikes might look like, what might be small, and what might be big. But targeting spikes on either end of the spectrum but particularly on the lower side, might be a way to start.

Do young bulls sometimes have spies less than say 10”? And I seem to think that spikes could grow as long as 2-3’ based off of what I have seen.

Genuine question: When I find a ton of elk tracks in the snow in a canyon or whatever in central Colorado in 2nd-3rd rifle season but spot no elk around, I've been told that those elk could be tens of miles away because they migrate a lot. Is that not true?

In other words, if you find some terrific bull on one spot in July or August, does that have much to do with where he will be in late October/early November?

My partners and I are getting old. Getting into the really rugged stuff isn't nearly as much fun as it was 20 years ago. We like to hunt elk and aren't looking for a wall hanger. Some years ago, we switched to hunting cows. They can be as much fun as a bull and tags are MUCH easier to get. Often getting the tag is the hardest part of the hunt. We'd rather skip the bull draws with a 5% chance of drawing and get cow tags where we can hunt almost every year. Plus, cows are better eating.
By doing this, I've scored 4 years in a row, all on public land. During late hunts they will be bunched up, often on private land, but there are always small bunches that wander onto public land if you can find them. Of these last 4 I've got, only 1 was with a large herd and they were still on public land. The others were 2 cows with a big bull and 6 spikes, a single cow with a bull, and a cow and calf. All were near other elk but were off by themselves.

Those elk could be tens of miles away from a lot of reasons besides migration. When the outfitters start setting up camps in late July or Archery hunters start chasing them at the end of August, and all thru September couple with 9 days of muzzle loader season a lot of elk in Colorado head for private land. First elk go where they will feel safe, then search for forage. They might go 3-5 miles to water during the night.

Usually when you see a bunch of elk tracts, 40-50 yards wide, the snow is all trampled down, and all tracks are headed downhill, those elk are most likely migrating, but 12-15 inches of snow does not push elk down unless the snow has crusted and they can't paw through. IMO, more elk are moved because of hunters than anything else.

Cow elk have favorite breeding grounds and calving grounds. Those bulls move into those breeding grounds pre rut and rut following the cows. Bulls do not decide where the cows go, they follow the ones in heat. They might keep their harem bunched up, but if the cows want to leave the country, they will.

If I am hunting pre rut or peak rut, I pay attention to rubs and wallows, but by 2-3rd rifle season they mean zip.

If that terrific bull is not pushed out of the area, as long as it has food ,water, and cover, it won't go far. Once rut starts he will go find cows. Or hikers, outdoor recreation , hunters scouting,(especially those invading bedding areas) ranchers moving thru checking cattle, sheep, and 50 other things could move that bull out. Especially hunters that think they have to camp in prime elk habitat.

Unless you are in an area with no hunting pressure, the best tactic is finding out where, when, and what routes the elk go when pushed by other hunters.

Elk don't read any rule books and will do what it takes to survive. Others may have different opinions, but these have been my experiences over 50+ years and what has worked for me.

It could be, ya. It may (or may not) be due to migration though.

In most cases where a bull is in July or August isn’t where he is come late October or early November.

Did you find a big patch of black timber way up on the north face of steep mountain where elk would love to bed? Be advised that if you sneak through it and kick out some elk, they won't be back. They won't quit moving for 5 miles and they won't be back until they're spooked out of somewhere else. You're better off backing off and hunting around it early and late. Be prepared to reach the timber in the dark and return to camp in the dark. Catch them moving in and out but don't go in or you'll likely mess up a bedding spot for good.

Hawk,
My experience is limited, but I don’t set up on elk sign unless it is prolific and very fresh, like droppings are still moist and shiny fresh. Again, very limited experience, but it’s scored me two bulls in two years.

Great advice, RC. Thank you.

In my experience it has changed considerably in southwestern Montana. When I started hunting 50+ years ago, there weren't nearly as many elk, and most on public land lived at higher elevations most of the year, partly because there were so many fresh Forest Service clear-cuts that provided plenty of grazing, and partly because there plenty of timber around them, providing hiding/resting cover. There was an archery season, but before compound bows not many hunters took part.

The primary method for foot-hunters was to wait for the first snows to drive elk downhill to more open ridges, especially around clearcuts. This also worked in our present part of southwestern Montana when we moved here in 1990. Some scouting resulted in a nifty ridge with a series of 7 clearcuts, where not only elk but mule deer headed with the first snow and cold.

But eventually the clearcuts grew up into small timber. While elk numbers increased, the archery-season pressure often drove them off the higher Forest Service land onto private ranches in the valley below. These days we often see herds of 100-200 elk in the hay meadows of those ranches during September.

There are more elk, and more mature bulls. But finding a place to hunt them on public land is more a matter of luck in drawing increasingly low-odds tags and permits.

Thanks for the reply. So, why do these people you mentioned succeed scouting a bull all summer/fall? If that guy is somewhere else next week/month?

I don’t k ow the answer you your question, Hawk, but I do have a theory.

Every time I find elk, I mark them on my map. Over the course of the few years I’ve been doing this, I’ve started to develop patterns. It appears that elk are moving down corridors from summer range to winter. When viewing the large scale map you can see how some areas may funnel critters across the landscape. My theory has a that hunters familiar with a given area may be able to find a bull in the summer months, and know generally where to look for them come fall. Just a guess…

Thank you, MD. Your input is poignant and much appreciated as always.

I too have seen the big herds that file into and loaf on the private ranches down in the “basin”. There is one ranch that we have named “Metallica Land” after learning that it was owned by a Metallica band member, although that ranch has since sold to my knowledge. Of course, along with all the elk that file into that area, we noticed all of the hunters that seem to hover around the area, hoping and waiting to catch a shooter moving in to or out of the private land. That looks like a big S show and our approach has been to avoid all that, trying to get away from the pressure.

It is quite clear to me that many hunters where we have been going are either novices or simply unwilling to make their way away from the forest roads.

It’s not as complicated as most people believe.

I’ve killed elk from one end of Idaho to another, and the single most important key to success by a WIDE margin is to go where others can’t/won’t.

Dave

That was a bit misleading, and was in reference more to bowhunters taking elk in the early season, that they had been watching all summer. Come the later rifle seasons, and especially so in Montana that dynamic changes, in a general sense.

My keys to success is to hunt spots that have produced in seasons past and don’t tromp around scouting bedding areas. Any scouting just days before the opener will usually result in unseen elk heading for a couple of zip codes away. I have come to learn the areas that hold elk and those that only produce tons of tracks of elk passing through.

That's a fact, I've seen the pics!

When you say "migrate" above, are you talking about them moving out of the high country once the snow gets deep, or just moving around to avoid hunters? I've done my share of "scouting" in August and found good numbers of elk in prime habitat with good feed, water, and cover all in the same spot. The problem is all the other guys who found the elk in the obvious places. Come hunting season the elk are somewhere else because of hunting pressure and not just in the spots near the road. One of my best spots is one that you'd walk right by in August because there's nothing special about it, but it's near where they hang out all summer and it's where the elk go after hunting season starts because it's not obvious and harder to get to. IMO, August trips are good to learn the lay of the land and whether an area holds elk in general but not to narrow down the spots where you want to concentrate your hunting.