Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Finding Mature Bulls on Public Land

Hello everyone. I hope you all are doing well.

My buddies and I are going on our 4th annual elk hunt this November. We’ll be going to the same place we have gone the first three years, diy public land. The first year we went with a very inexpensive guide and the last two we have gone DIY. Each of the last two years I have killed a bull, younger ones. The first was a 3x3 and last year was a nicer, but not huge 5x5. Each hunt has been a thrill and we were all happy to have elk meat, but now I’m thinking about the next step in my elk hunting career.

The two bulls I have killed were with herds and they were the only legal bulls in their herd. Each time, I found heavy and fresh elk sign coming into meadows, where I would wait to ambush the elk. This is a good tactic, I think, for connecting with a bull and I am sure we will employ this method this fall.

How should I go about finding mature bulls? It seems like at this time of year, the herds are moving to their winter grounds and the bulls we find around the herds are immature. Are the big guys nearby, but just more solitary? Or are they in a totally different area altogether? The elk I have killed in the fields have both been at dusk on top of hills/mountain with canyons bisecting the hill tops. The canyons/drainages are heavily wooded with conifers and there is lots of deadfall. I’m inclined to think the big boys are in there, but just keeping to themselves and generally laying low during the day, just like a post rut whitetail buck. Would still hunting these drainages during the day be a good tactic? If so, am I more likely to find elk down in the creek bottom, or somewhere between the bottom and the top of the hill?

Thanks for sticking around this long. Looking forward to listening to the collective wisdom of the fire.

Happy hunting!
-Jeff

It is not uncommon for the larger herd bulls to separate from the cows post rut. The mature bulls who have spent a lot of energy fighting and breeding are likely to want to put on weight for the winter. So that can often mean, they go to a spot with food, cover and water all in one location. So yes that can mean, a nasty canyon.

somewhere between the bottom and the top of the hill

I would tell you to keep hunting. I have killed dozens of elk and only one bull in the 370 class. I hunt elk because I like to kill elk, getting a big bull is a bonus, but so much focus has been made on killing big bulls, it really isn’t realistic to think you can hunt an elk or area and kill a big bull.

In Montana, you will probably see a success rate of killing elk at around 17%. That means out of 100 hunters, 17 will get an elk. That doesn’t mean bulls, that is elk, either sex.

Out of that 17%, I would guess around 80% are the same hunters, year after year. That leaves about 20% of 17% or 3.4% of hunters will get lucky and kill an elk.

Out of that lucky 3.4%, very few are going to be big bulls. You can’t read Eastman’s Journal and other magazines and think that there are as many success stories as they print, against all the unsuccessful stories you never hear about.

Not every bull elk is capable of growing 330 and larger mass of antlers, regardless of how old he may get. I would consider you luckier than most with the success you’ve had and just tell you to keep hunting. You may want to research where the larger elk are killed and hunt those areas, because there are plenty of areas that just won’t produce big bulls.

Good luck and keep hunting…

Good points Shrap!
I agree.

HS 58

Thanks Shrap and everyone else for the input. I too am more than happy to kill any elk. I love the whole experience and it’s something my friends and I talk about and look forward to the whole year. My intent isn’t to kill a big bull every year, but learn more about an animal that I only get to share space with one week out of the year.

I’ve been hunting the Bitterroots and am aware of the low success rates. In my limited experience it seems that many, if not most hunters just don’t get far away enough from the high pressure areas. Either way, I’m proud of the fact that I’ve been able to locate and kill two bulls over the last two years. I consider it an accomplishment, but my buddies have yet to score which is really starting to grind my gears. I’m hoping to use the tactic i mentioned to put them on bulls while I still hunt down lower.

The only big bulls I’ve ever ran across during Colorado’s third season have always been either solitary or a pair of bulls. They’ve generally been in some brush filled, steep sided hellhole.

I’ve been lucky enough to kill one personally and been in on the pack job on a couple more.

Knowing my odds I go in content to shoot any raghorn that meets the legal criteria. It’s a happy accident if the opportunity for a big one is presented.

Like mentioned above, big bulls typically won’t be with the herd after the rut. They will be solitary or possibly in small bachelor groups. Usually in places the herd won’t be. Deeper canyons. Rougher terrain. Maybe even in sage flats bedding in small pockets of trees. Often nocturnal in habits too.

Get as far away from readily accessed travel corridors as possible.

In this state (Oregon) most of the monster bulls are taken during the rut, which is our archery season. Bulls are announcing their presence then, are active, and on the move all day. I hunted that same trophy ground where those bulls are found during our rifle season, and running down a good bull becomes a needle in a haystack deal as one is looking for kegged up, silent, and inactive animals.

My Wy rifle experiences suggest the very first and last hours of the day provide the best spot and stalk opportunities. Once the sun is on the ground, the elk are hiding. There, I've watched them literally move across the landscape just within the shady side of the morning sun/shade ecotone.

Okay, next question. How steep is too steep when it comes to post rut, mature bull habitat? Obviously elk have no trouble traversing rough topography, but is there a limit?

They have no issues in terrain I would rope up in. Typically though, they bed on small level shady benches.

No.....

That can be as small as a couch..

So with that in mind, do any of you still hunt these steep slopes looking for bulls? Or is glassing the better plan? Would I expect them to be bedded on the north side of a slope?

I have seen pressured elk, and in the Bitterroot specifically, up above the mountain goats and in rougher terrain. They go to wherever they need to feel safe and have the food that they need to recover from the rut. That normally isn’t where the cows are come November.

The density of elk on public in those open hunt areas such as the Bitterroot just aren’t high enough for me to still hunt looking for them, though if you stumbled across an area they seem to like, I am sure it would be a good spot year after year. I’d just continue to glass north slopes as best you can despite how thick they can be. That is where many of the bulls are during the November rifle season there.

There are occasional big bulls killed near Sula but for the most part, the genetics and/or food just isn’t there, let alone with the hunting pressure they get. A 5x5 is a respectable bull in that country. For whatever reason, I have seen bigger bulls come out of the Sapphires than I have the Bitterroots.

Personally I’d continue doing what you’re doing and sooner or later you’ll stumble into a big one.

If by "still hunting" one means slowly traversing terrain looking for elk, then no. One cannot silently sneak about where he must grab onto trees or shrubs to stay on the slopes. Mostly back off from mountain sides and glass. Early and late we venture into avalanche chutes where elk go to forage on herbaceous vegetation.

On sunny days they mostly timber up. Immediately after heavy snows, however, one can find bulls bedded on open high elevation slopes. Cows will usually be lower down.

Thanks for the input, Devil! You among others have helped me with a few questions on this forum the last couple of years. Your help is much appreciated.

Thank you everyone for your input. Keep it coming!

They are where you find them, sometimes quite steep country…

👍
Good luck….I can’t believe you’ve drawn 3 years in a row….I finally drew just the deer combo this year with 3 bonus points. I haven’t been able to hunt my old stomping grounds since 2020.

I am with a bunch of guys from my first tour in FL right now getting loaded all day/every day, but am headed back home to the Bitterroot next week. Too early to seriously scout I think but I’ll hike and ride around some 2-3 year old burns and get a game plan for this fall.

I would reiterate what Shrapnel and Tinman said, plus throw this in there. Look hard at your top and ONX maps of your area, pick out the spots you would LEAST like to have to climb up to and in to.....and go there.

I have hunted Colorado now about 46 years. New Mexico 9-10 years. I have taken 4 bigger mature bulls, many smaller ones and some cows . All on public land except one guided hunt in Alberta back in the eighties. That works out to about a big mature bull every 14-15 years. I might have doubled that if I held out instead of shooting the first legal bull that walked by.

As mentioned previously some areas just don't have the genes to grow big bulls or available forage might not be present.

Those bigger bulls usually go off and find a hidey hole after rut in some mean nasty country. I am not enough of a horn hunter to venture into those areas very often at my age when I can kill a mediocre bull or cow with a lot less work.

As for steep slopes, you can find bulls and cows from the flats all the way up the rocky ramparts and everything in between.

If your buddies are not l killing elk and you are,they are not trying hard enough.People hunt for a lot of various reason and some actually don't care if they don't punch tag

Elk will typically be on a north facing slope as opposed to south facing. They like cooler spots as opposed to warmth.

Think of it this way: elk are always wearing a heavy coat. All year. They wanna stay cool if they can. They will do whatever they can to stay cool.

South facing slopes typically have less trees. I find getting on a south facing slope and glassing a north facing slope helpful. It can be a challenge though looking through all that vegetation on a north slope. The bulls will not be very active. Just eating and laying back down as they are trying to gain weight after the rut so they can survive winter easier.

Bulls are more straw colored whereas cows are a tad darker - say like coffee with creamer.

In November, they won’t come to water daily. It can be days. When they do, it’s often between late evening to first light the next day. So sitting water isn’t a very good strategy in November.

That’s great to hear your with your brothers, T. Can’t beat the camaraderie. I’ll be in Ocean City in two weeks with the boys, offshore fishing for tuna and hopefully some other stuff. I’m very fortunate to have a wife who understands the man she married, and that is willing to let me take off from time to time to do what I love.

I’ve actually drawn 4 years in a row now, although last year I had to settle for a general tag as I didn’t get drawn for the unit permit that we go for. The special permit unit which I know you are familiar with, has a nearly 100% success rate on draws. There are 4 of us going this year and we all got our bull tags. I think last year was a bit of an anomaly.

As it turned out though, I killed last year’s bull just about 3 or so miles from where I killed the first one, although in a general unit last year. Was a real bitch with all the snow and I was fortunate to find the herd I did. I think the spot I found was a staging point for travel into their wintering grounds.

We do know of a spot in that special permit unit where we have seen two nice bulls. We’re planning on trying that area but will need to camp due to the distanced hiked in, and the terrain where we have seen the bulls being about as steep as I care to traverse. The camping part has been a hang up for one of the guys in the group, but that will be less of an issue with 4 of us going this year and the other 2 being all in.

Thanks for providing that perspective, SS. That bit of reality really puts things together for me.

I think the guys really want an elk, in fact I know they do. But their hunting experience is much more limited than mine, and my patience and ability to wait things out is more steadfast than theirs. I’ve been hunting avidly since I was a little guy and I’m very observant. That has led, I like to think, to some very good intuition and ability when it comes to hunting. These guys are just a bit lacking in that realm due to limited experience, but we try. Regardless, I’d hate to be the one that always kills something while they get skunked. Hopefully we can change that this year.

Good info there, FS. I was somewhat aware of the things you said, minus the water part. I will say that the bulls I have killed have been as they have come out to feed in the evening on south facing slopes. My intuition tells me they are feeding on the south slopes in the morning and evening, and then crossing over the ridge to bed down for the day. When I started this post, my original thought was the mature bulls would be nearby to the herd, just off to themselves. But it sounds like they are more likely to be some distance from cows and immature bulls.

I know where to find them but the odds of drawing a tag are less than 1 in 20 and Idaho doesn't have a point system. I'd rather hunt cows than not hunt at all. I've got a cow the last 4 years. Besides, I'm too old to get where they are now, let alone get one out.

The same can be said for some gnarly canyon you don't want to climb down into. Generally that is where they are hiding in the day time. They know no one is going to be going down in to a hell hole.

I cross a river in a small raft to access the backside of a small mountain on a north facing slope with lots of dead fall. . On dry years I bring tennis shoes to cross with hiking poles if water is low enough . Its about 1/2 a Mile off of a paved road.


Also a fan of using tree stands I mostly hunt archery

No ONX for me, Ingwe. Compass, Cairn Catographics map and if I get a little turned around I have a GPS mini. I’d much rather look at a map than a screen.

Big bulls are rarely with cows that time of year.

I also believe a vast majority of bulls will reach 320-330 if they live to be 6-10 years old.

Big bulls are in recovery mode post rut and what they want the most is high quality feed and sanctuary. The high quality feed is crucial and changes a lot post rut to winter range. What they prefer feed wise will vary, but all I'll say is that there are a handful of high quality shrubs and grasses they will travel a long way to find. Combine those plants with some secure country thats difficult to either get to or see, very likely to hold bulls.

Once you find those areas, the bigger bulls will be found there year after year. The only way to f-it up is to kill too many once you find those spots. Why I don't like to hunt with a crowd. You start pounding the chit out of those great spots, and they're easy to shoot them out. Your group of 4 is probably 2 too many.

Weather can really change things, colder weather makes things much easier, snow helps too. I often glass midday and look for tracks in any open areas. Glassing north sides midday can work, best to find places you can shoot across if you happen to get lucky. Elk really don't stay bedded for long periods of time. They may not move slot, but the bulls will get up every few hours, stretch, take a piss, maybe feed a bit, then bed again. If you're out glassing instead of playing grabass at camp, good things happen.

If you're going to still hunt, do it on days with wind, blocks noise and the extra movement from chit blowing around will make it easier to get shots in thick timber. Watch local winds and plan accordingly. Rainy/snowy days are excellent too, scent lays down and the noise and movement works in your favor.

Tracking can pay off too, and if you pay attention elk dont do much at random, usually a reason for everything they do.

In spite of what some claim, mature bulls can be taken every year if you pay attention and know what you're doing.

Greenhorn, who used to post here has killed a few dozen mature bulls in that 320-350 range with a handful of bigger ones. I know 2-3 others who do the same.

I've shot lots of elk, lots of bulls, but I don't like hunting them as much as other things. I've shot a dozen or so 6 points, chit tons of raghorns and cows.

Speaking of crossing rivers...Some years ago, we were elk hunting along the Salmon River near Stanley, ID. We saw a game warden and a forest ranger parked and talking to each other. We had some question so we stopped to talk. They were waiting for 4 Hispanic guys who'd crossed the river on an ATV, ferrying each other across. They might have had a snorkel on the ATV as the water would have been higher than the tires. They'd got a nice bull and had it down to the water getting ready to ferry it across the same way. Er, no they weren't. Crossing that river with a motor vehicle inside a National Recreation Area is strictly forbidden. The officers were waiting to see them 'personally'.

We ran into the game warden again the next day and asked how it all turned out. He said the 1st guy came across with the elk. It was totally legal and properly tagged so they hadn't violated any game laws. The Forest ranger, however, had some action. He hadn't seen them in the morning so he had no proof that they crossed the river with the ATV but he'd seen it over there. So, he'd been watching them all afternoon to catch them returning. He wrote the guy up, a very heavy fine, and for sure wouldn't let him cross the river again to get the other 3 guys. They had a choice of wading the river or hiking 5 miles over a steep ridge in the dark to the nearest bridge. They chose to hike.

They had chosen a great spot to find bulls, though, and it's all public land with good elk numbers. Crossing the river wasn't easy and it was a long hike in over steep rough country, even though it was very close to a major highway. It was ideal for horses as they could easily cross the river. We didn't see any horse trailers around, though.
Things have changed since then. The area has been discovered. Tags are OTC with a limit of 1800. When they go on sale, they usually sell out in 15 to 30 min. It's a real zoo trying to get one. We used to hunt it all the time but quit messing with it when tags got so hard to get.

Thanks RC and Buzz! Both of your posts are great. RC, you never disappoint. Hope you gentlemen are well.

-Jeff

The Bitteroots is vague. The Montana portion is mostly rocky canyons running east-west to the valley below. The Idhao portion comes off the same divide but is turn into a lot of river and stream canyons. The northern part is thick and can be brushy and the southern part us higher and drier.

I’m hunting the southern portion of the MT Bitterroots. I’m trying to ambiguous on that to a point.

Colorado is different than Wyoming, Montana, or Idaho. Elk are managed ( if you can call it that) for quantity, not quality. Before the game department instituted the 4 on a side restriction of antlers, it was hard to find even a branched antler bull. Yes, bulls need to be 5-6 years to get that growth, but if they are all shot off before that, you won't find any, no matter how hard you hunt or how good of a hunter you are.

OTC units fall into that category, but every once in awhile, a good bull is killed in those units.

In Colorado, if you want to consistently take bigger bulls, you pay a trespass fee or hire an outfitter that has private land leased and limits the number of bulls taken each year.

If you want to hunt public land, then you wait with 6-9 years building preference points to draw a tag for a so so area or 25-30 years to draw a tag in on of the better years. It took me 21 points and that was 16 years ago.

Back in the late 70's and 80's I hunted great units, even OTC, every one of those areas were over hunted by the 90's . When CPW boast 18-20% success rate for elk hunters they lump all kills, all seasons, all means of take, cows,bulls and calves into one pot. Draw units that take 10-30 points where success ratio is 80%or more are lumped into OTC units where, in now days, success rate is less than 10%.

In New Mexico, there are no preference points and you typically hunt elk every three years, which means you might kill one or two big bulls in your life time if you only hunt public land

Growing up here in Texas, I remember when it seemed like we just didn’t have big deer where I hunted in the hill country. Around the time I was in high school or maybe after I had left for the Marines, Texas started implementing antler restrictions in some counties. Well, turns out they worked. I think it was so effective, that I’ve found many hunters abiding by those antler restrictions even in counties that don’t have the restrictions.
The effect in my experience has been a lot more bucks reaching maturity and having big antlers and bodies. I think we used to blame genetics and nutrition before we realized the problem was that we were as a culture shooting young bucks, usually with the general mindset that if we didn’t somebody on the other side of the fence would.
I’m sure the same rules would apply for elk. The general theme I’ve heard when hunting OTC elk is to kill the first legal bull you can as it might be your only shot. I empathize and follow that sentiment, but it might be different if I lived in elk country and had more opportunities to hunt them. I’m not a trophy hunter per say. I’ve killed wayyyyy more does than bucks, and I would have happily shot a cow if I ever had a tag. That said, there is a great sense of satisfaction and accomplishment to find a wary old buck when he really doesn’t want to be found. I’d just love to find an old bull off by himself. One day…..

Does anyone know the general bull:cow ratio in MT. I imagine it varies throughout the state of course.

I recall looking at the harvest rates for MT for elk and the bulls were as high as the cows. That would make sense with the standard tag allocation going to bulls, and special licenses for cows. Just thinking how a huge part of most deer mgt programs here rely on killing lots of does.

Depends on the area, lots of public land, think single digits to maybe 10/100 post harvest. Maybe better in some areas with mostly private land.

Montana doesn't manage elk worth a chit.

Big elk turn up in OTC units every year though most (ie all) who kill big bulls yearly put an absurd amount of time in scouting and quite often have a specific bull they watch all summer/fall. There’s nothing wrong with that, in fact I admire it, but it isn’t realistic for a NR who lives 1000 miles away. Priorities do come into play here though and I am sure some do that very thing.

I’d agree that most all bulls can get to 310”+ even with less than stellar genetics if they live long enough but I am referring to ‘big’ bulls in the 350+ range. The 1/10 bull/cow ratio does sound about right for post season OTC Montana hunts though with all the cow tag changes in recent years, I could be totally off base as I just haven’t paid too much attention.

Several states have tried deer antler restrictions and gave up on them.They found it put to much presser on the older bucks and the younger ones were doing the breeding. Colorado tried it, did a half dozen studies and finally came up with the idea they were killing too many deer. They went to draw only mature bucks started to come back.

Elk antler point restrictions work though, mostly because cows are already bred before rifle season. We would see a lot more bigger bulls in rifle season if Colorado cut the one month archery season to maybe two weeks.That is when mature bulls are most vulnerable. IMO there should be no elk hunting in peak elk rut

Deer or elk though are managed best by cutting doe and cow tags or increasing them to control numbers. Unfortunately Colorado manages their wildlife for dollars and politics rather than biology

Texas got their antler restrictions right I think in regards to not “high- grading” (forestry term meaning taking all the good and leaving the poor quality specimens).

A legal buck in any county here with antler restrictions includes any buck with antlers outside the ears (13” + inside spread) or any buck with at least one unbranched antler (a spike buck). By allowing each hunter to shoot spikes, we are still putting pressure on younger bucks, theoretically with poorer genetics, while allowing the younger bucks with branched antlers more time to live and grow.

A hunting license here comes with 5 WT deer tags and each county has its own specific regulations. 5 deer counties will typically have a 2-3 buck limit with at least one of those bucks being a spike. Hunter’s can also use all 5 tags on does if they like, or shoot spikes for all of their given buck tags. There is no doubt in my mind that the system has worked as I have watched the overall quality of deer increase since the inception of those regulations.

The unit I hunt in Montana requires that bulls have 6” brow tines. I’d bet my bottom dollar that if they increased that to at least 4 tines on each antler like you have in CO, and allowed the shooting of inferior spikes, I quality would improve surprisingly quick.

Given the suspected 1:10 ratio that has been mentioned a couple of times for MT regarding elk, I’d think a few more cows could be harvested, but I suppose that has more to do with overall herd numbers and the goals for that unit.

I think one hole in that theory is “inferior” spikes. Whether or not the rule holds true for deer has been hashed out on here and other forums a thousand times with no consensus. But I believe that a bull elk normally grows a set of spikes for his first antlers more often than not. I’ve seen hundreds of spike bulls and I can count the number of fork horns and tiny 3Xs on one hand.

Colorado’s antler restrictions realistically only protect spikes. The rule, at least in the unit I hunt, is 4 on a side or a 5” brow tine. Very rare to see a branch antlered bull that doesn’t have a brow longer than 5”.

No doubt that the spike theory was a quite murky. There was even a very comprehensive study, I think in Texas, that sustained very strict harvest parameters for many years. The conclusion was that harvesting deer based on antler characteristics had no effect on the genetics of the herd.

But, as SS stated, antler restrictions often lead to increased pressure on the better animals, letting the smaller ones go.

An “inferior” spike is hard to define, especially if the typical antlers on a 1.5 yr old bull are spikes. Perhaps spikes under a certain length could be a good metric. My experience with elk is so limited that I don’t know what a typical set of spikes might look like, what might be small, and what might be big. But targeting spikes on either end of the spectrum but particularly on the lower side, might be a way to start.

Do young bulls sometimes have spies less than say 10”? And I seem to think that spikes could grow as long as 2-3’ based off of what I have seen.

Genuine question: When I find a ton of elk tracks in the snow in a canyon or whatever in central Colorado in 2nd-3rd rifle season but spot no elk around, I've been told that those elk could be tens of miles away because they migrate a lot. Is that not true?

In other words, if you find some terrific bull on one spot in July or August, does that have much to do with where he will be in late October/early November?

My partners and I are getting old. Getting into the really rugged stuff isn't nearly as much fun as it was 20 years ago. We like to hunt elk and aren't looking for a wall hanger. Some years ago, we switched to hunting cows. They can be as much fun as a bull and tags are MUCH easier to get. Often getting the tag is the hardest part of the hunt. We'd rather skip the bull draws with a 5% chance of drawing and get cow tags where we can hunt almost every year. Plus, cows are better eating.
By doing this, I've scored 4 years in a row, all on public land. During late hunts they will be bunched up, often on private land, but there are always small bunches that wander onto public land if you can find them. Of these last 4 I've got, only 1 was with a large herd and they were still on public land. The others were 2 cows with a big bull and 6 spikes, a single cow with a bull, and a cow and calf. All were near other elk but were off by themselves.

Those elk could be tens of miles away from a lot of reasons besides migration. When the outfitters start setting up camps in late July or Archery hunters start chasing them at the end of August, and all thru September couple with 9 days of muzzle loader season a lot of elk in Colorado head for private land. First elk go where they will feel safe, then search for forage. They might go 3-5 miles to water during the night.

Usually when you see a bunch of elk tracts, 40-50 yards wide, the snow is all trampled down, and all tracks are headed downhill, those elk are most likely migrating, but 12-15 inches of snow does not push elk down unless the snow has crusted and they can't paw through. IMO, more elk are moved because of hunters than anything else.

Cow elk have favorite breeding grounds and calving grounds. Those bulls move into those breeding grounds pre rut and rut following the cows. Bulls do not decide where the cows go, they follow the ones in heat. They might keep their harem bunched up, but if the cows want to leave the country, they will.

If I am hunting pre rut or peak rut, I pay attention to rubs and wallows, but by 2-3rd rifle season they mean zip.

If that terrific bull is not pushed out of the area, as long as it has food ,water, and cover, it won't go far. Once rut starts he will go find cows. Or hikers, outdoor recreation , hunters scouting,(especially those invading bedding areas) ranchers moving thru checking cattle, sheep, and 50 other things could move that bull out. Especially hunters that think they have to camp in prime elk habitat.

Unless you are in an area with no hunting pressure, the best tactic is finding out where, when, and what routes the elk go when pushed by other hunters.

Elk don't read any rule books and will do what it takes to survive. Others may have different opinions, but these have been my experiences over 50+ years and what has worked for me.

It could be, ya. It may (or may not) be due to migration though.

In most cases where a bull is in July or August isn’t where he is come late October or early November.

Did you find a big patch of black timber way up on the north face of steep mountain where elk would love to bed? Be advised that if you sneak through it and kick out some elk, they won't be back. They won't quit moving for 5 miles and they won't be back until they're spooked out of somewhere else. You're better off backing off and hunting around it early and late. Be prepared to reach the timber in the dark and return to camp in the dark. Catch them moving in and out but don't go in or you'll likely mess up a bedding spot for good.

Hawk,
My experience is limited, but I don’t set up on elk sign unless it is prolific and very fresh, like droppings are still moist and shiny fresh. Again, very limited experience, but it’s scored me two bulls in two years.

Great advice, RC. Thank you.

In my experience it has changed considerably in southwestern Montana. When I started hunting 50+ years ago, there weren't nearly as many elk, and most on public land lived at higher elevations most of the year, partly because there were so many fresh Forest Service clear-cuts that provided plenty of grazing, and partly because there plenty of timber around them, providing hiding/resting cover. There was an archery season, but before compound bows not many hunters took part.

The primary method for foot-hunters was to wait for the first snows to drive elk downhill to more open ridges, especially around clearcuts. This also worked in our present part of southwestern Montana when we moved here in 1990. Some scouting resulted in a nifty ridge with a series of 7 clearcuts, where not only elk but mule deer headed with the first snow and cold.

But eventually the clearcuts grew up into small timber. While elk numbers increased, the archery-season pressure often drove them off the higher Forest Service land onto private ranches in the valley below. These days we often see herds of 100-200 elk in the hay meadows of those ranches during September.

There are more elk, and more mature bulls. But finding a place to hunt them on public land is more a matter of luck in drawing increasingly low-odds tags and permits.

Thanks for the reply. So, why do these people you mentioned succeed scouting a bull all summer/fall? If that guy is somewhere else next week/month?

I don’t k ow the answer you your question, Hawk, but I do have a theory.

Every time I find elk, I mark them on my map. Over the course of the few years I’ve been doing this, I’ve started to develop patterns. It appears that elk are moving down corridors from summer range to winter. When viewing the large scale map you can see how some areas may funnel critters across the landscape. My theory has a that hunters familiar with a given area may be able to find a bull in the summer months, and know generally where to look for them come fall. Just a guess…

Thank you, MD. Your input is poignant and much appreciated as always.

I too have seen the big herds that file into and loaf on the private ranches down in the “basin”. There is one ranch that we have named “Metallica Land” after learning that it was owned by a Metallica band member, although that ranch has since sold to my knowledge. Of course, along with all the elk that file into that area, we noticed all of the hunters that seem to hover around the area, hoping and waiting to catch a shooter moving in to or out of the private land. That looks like a big S show and our approach has been to avoid all that, trying to get away from the pressure.

It is quite clear to me that many hunters where we have been going are either novices or simply unwilling to make their way away from the forest roads.

It’s not as complicated as most people believe.

I’ve killed elk from one end of Idaho to another, and the single most important key to success by a WIDE margin is to go where others can’t/won’t.

Dave

That was a bit misleading, and was in reference more to bowhunters taking elk in the early season, that they had been watching all summer. Come the later rifle seasons, and especially so in Montana that dynamic changes, in a general sense.

My keys to success is to hunt spots that have produced in seasons past and don’t tromp around scouting bedding areas. Any scouting just days before the opener will usually result in unseen elk heading for a couple of zip codes away. I have come to learn the areas that hold elk and those that only produce tons of tracks of elk passing through.

That's a fact, I've seen the pics!

When you say "migrate" above, are you talking about them moving out of the high country once the snow gets deep, or just moving around to avoid hunters? I've done my share of "scouting" in August and found good numbers of elk in prime habitat with good feed, water, and cover all in the same spot. The problem is all the other guys who found the elk in the obvious places. Come hunting season the elk are somewhere else because of hunting pressure and not just in the spots near the road. One of my best spots is one that you'd walk right by in August because there's nothing special about it, but it's near where they hang out all summer and it's where the elk go after hunting season starts because it's not obvious and harder to get to. IMO, August trips are good to learn the lay of the land and whether an area holds elk in general but not to narrow down the spots where you want to concentrate your hunting.

the key to kill a big bull is Alfalfa in the archery season during the rifle season its a crap shoot in Montana on public land . good luck,Pete53

LOL, so stay out of the millions of acres of national forest, especially the wilderness areas. Great advice!!

Saddle and Smoke already provided some good advice re: Colorado hunting. Here's my $0.02 on Colorado elk. If the big bulls aren't taken in ML or archery, they are on private land by the end of opening weekend of the 1st season gun hunt. I don't believe this notion that they hold up in some thick honey hole that's too rugged for a hunter to access. There is nothing in Colorado that is inaccessible by a hunter in this state. Nothing. No matter how far I hunt away from the road, no matter how rugged the terrain, I still see hunters. And now there's this trend where people set up camps deep in elk habitat because they think they gaining some sort of advantage getting away from everyone on the side of the road. Instead, they just ruined it for themselves and everyone else.

Away from other hunters in this state does not exist...on public land. And that's your answer. Like others have said, the elk move from hunters and find easy refuge on private land. Even CPW officers I've spoke with in the field have stated such. One of the places we hunt on NF is surrounded by large private ranches. We've driven the county roads through these ranches at night, three days after opening day of 1st season, and there are elk standing on the road. Herds of elk, massive bulls, little bulls, cows, eating grass at the edge of the road. And there's nothing you can do about it. At the edge of the road, it's private land and they know it. We have multiple videos of them on grazing at 4pm on broad daylight on private land during gun seasons as well.

4th season they are out of the mountains and on lower elevation ranches. Guaranteed. You might find cows and spikes grazing BLM. Might. Even my taxidermist says the big bulls come in during archery/ML season and he rarely sees a high 290+ elk come in after 1st gun season.

True Words Mountain10mm.I am in complete agreement.

Drive up the Ohio Creek Road north of Gunnison anytime after archery season and you will see 500-800 elk on the Castleton ranch, eating with the cows.

Another big ranch where you use an access road to get into NF leading to Medano pass has the same thing.

OP, my .02 cents worth.

You are doing great hunting the way you are. If you can regularly take a legal elk on public land absolutely continue to do so. your sample size is too small to draw any meaningful conclusions from, except that you have found a formula seems to be working.
The way I hunt is similar to what you are doing, and sooner or later a bigger bull will come by. But unless you are seeing lots of animals nearly every trip in the woods, by all means, take the legal elk when you can, punch that expensive tag, and enjoy the meat the rest of the year.
I have had my share of success elk hunting, and what I do is sneak into spots I know elk may frequent before shooting light, and don't do any rooting around. I leave the same way, either at mid day or after legal shooting time in the evening. Minimal intrusion is what I try to do. My favorite type of spot to post up and watch is a meadow leading up to a saddle with timber on both sides in a tucked away location. Early and late are usually by far the best, but not always.
Elk can travel much better than I can, I let them come to me. Plus you usually have the advantage in those situations.
I personally like hunting bulls, but most everyone I know is happy as a lark with a cow tag.

Just before dark, watch ridge tops near timber. Often a herd will move out of the timber after sunset. If you see a herd, be there before 1st light. There's a very good chance they'll still be there. I've killed several elk doing that. Sometimes they'll all be cows but I've seen some really nice bulls that way, too.

> oh silly you , yes you know best . your so positive and thanks for your advise , sorry i guess you have never seen big bulls during bugle season much during archery season in Montana ? the new world record archery bull elk was shot in Montana in 2016 .

LOL, what's that have to do with alfalfa, Buckwheat?

Alfalfa is candy to an elk, a muley, or an antelope.

Probably won’t find many alfalfa fields on public land though!

so dopey smokey what ever you call yourself do you know anything about elk ? it appears not . > as has been posted alfalfa is elk candy and again "that is Alfalfa is elk candy" understand ?

you just need to know how the elk move to alfalfa fields , its like hunting whitetail deer just that these are elk we have killed some big bull elk doing this ,get between bedding area and the alfalfa field if public land is involved and now with corner section crossing it makes things even easier . we have even called in some nice bulls with a cow call it does work doing archery season in Montana.

He's rifle hunting in November and you're talking about archery hunting?

Good to see you here, Brad!
It’s been a good thread, but like any campfire thread there is the occasional post coming from way out in left field.

I’m sure if anyone could add to this conversation, you would be a good one! Tell us more about how you found that old bull last year/year before!

In November, they'll be bunched up for the winter. They could be in herds as large as several hundred. The bulls may or may not be with them. Sometimes the bulls will form small bachelor herds. They won't be far away, though. Trying to sneak up on 300 pairs of eyes can be tricky but it can be done.
A few years ago, I got on a herd like that, maybe 80 to 100, and on public land. I only saw a couple bulls but I had a cow tag. I was hiding in a rock pile at about 3 to 400 yds deciding which cow to shoot when a single cow walked out of some trees at not much over 50 yds. Bang.

OTOH, some years ago my partner needed a cow so I went along for the ride. We found them alright. They were in 2' of snow on top of a bare wind blown ridge, temperature -16F. It was one cold sucker. They were right out in the open with no possible approach and well out of range. We didn't even try that time. Then we found their beds from the night before - in a low area right along the road.

Lots of good comments here.

I have only hunted elk in Colorado and the only truly big bulls I have seen were either in special protected/trophy areas, private land or way up high in remote difficult terrain.

Seems I will see a hundred small bulls for every true 6 point trophy bull. Many of the 6 point bulls around here have thin spindly racks. Yes, six points, but not great mass. The “wow” factor can be low on a spindly 6pt.

I once had a herd of 16 bulls parade out in front of me…. 2 were six pointers, but none that I would consider enough mass to warrant the “trophy” moniker. YMMV…. btw…. I only had a cow tag.

I once scouted an area in the Flat Tops…. In July….saw literally dozens and dozens of elk in that three days. Came back for September muzzle loader, hunted there for 6 days and never saw an elk. The hayfields down below had dozens and dozens of elk.

I have a buddy who has access to an area only 3-4 miles from Rocky Mtn Park…. He shoots a big 6 pt bull every a 3 or 4 years. His secret to success is to hunt near the park.

Over the years, I have seen only two 7 pt bulls outside of RMNP. Both in dead of winter, on private land about 5500’ elevation.

All that being said, big bulls are just sometimes “where you find them.” Gotta keep looking….

I ran across a hunter one time…. Packing out a bull. He had been camped near us and we knew he had been hunting for a number of days….. I asked him how many elk he had seen since he started his hunt…. He said…”just one, this one.”

yes i know he is a rifle hunter but elk still go to Alfalfa, but he has a better chance at a big bull elk during the rutt /bugle time in most states its during archery season. i have seen elk including bulls in a Alfalfa field in January. you need to remember on public land ranchers rent that public land all summer for their cows and most of the grass is no longer there by rifle elk season or later.

I've only taken one bull. All the rest were cows. Almost all the bulls I've ever seen found me. Two things were common for most instances, but not all. One was, I was in the woods hunting. Not always with the intention of shooting. I guess some call it scouting. The other was, cows were in the area. Except a couple times when there was no cows around. One time, the bull walked right up to me so close, I could have touched him. Our eyes take time to adjust from bright sun to dark shade and back to bright sun. Elk have the same problem. He froze, and so did I. I was pretty nervous and made sure he saw my face directed towards him when he resumed motion. The other time I was back packing far above timber line in August. I surprised a group of bulls napping by a snow melt pond, all in thick velvet. I drew my 35mm camera only to snap on the end of the film roll. A common occurrence for me during my back packing misadventures.

Most of my elk hunting experience was in September with a muzzleloader. Elk worked up in the rut move fast. Anyone trying to lay an ambush or catch one will work hard for it and need some luck.

LOL, great advice pete, but what about those of us that don't hunt anywhere near alfalfa fields? That would be most elk hunters.

I'd love to hunt over an alfalfa field but hunting even near one means you're down in flat farmland and near roads. Try hunting in flat farmland near roads on public land in Colorado and get back to me.

And like Brad said "November" dummy.

Mostly for bow hunters during the rut....About Labor Day they start the rut. This is something I've seen several times. The bull will find a couple cows. The cows will decide who's the leader and her job is to find more cows. She'll take off on a cross country run, usually moving at a trot. The other cows will be lined out right behind her and the bull will follow them, trying to keep up. She'll cover as much distance as possible to find more lone cows. It's inevitable that sooner or later one of the new cows will take over her job but if that happens, the new leader will keep up the same program. I once watched a dozen cows come straight down a very steep hill at a fast trot. The bull was 100 yds behind them with his tongue hanging out and doing his best to keep up The cows got to a big stand of quakies at the bottom and waited for the bull. He hadn't been there 2 minutes when the lead cow was off again, straight up the side of the mountain from where they'd just come. Over the 1st week of the rut, they can cover many miles like that. I haven't had much luck slowing them down with calls. Maybe it's that I'm not convincing enough. I don't know.

You should have just hunted an alfalfa field.

5 pages and only small pissing matches?? Amazing restraint fellas.
Post rut bulls where I hunt will generally be in groups of nothing but bulls. Mature bulls groups will be much smaller due to their nature and there being so few of them in CO OTC units. Often the big guys will be from solo to 3 in #. (I'm talking 320+ bulls, and they are NOT common)

The larger groups of rags/5's are very easy to kill one from as are the replacement herd bulls that make believe they own the cows when owning cows is meaningless. It sounds like you've been shooting these guys. They are probably the easiest bull to take, followed by the bachelor groups of slightly older bulls. Every once in a while there will be what was referred to above as a "spindly 6" in these bachelor groups. Either he has really good genetics as a younger bull or he hasn't figured out (and is about to) that he should have gone off alone.

The big bulls are amazing animals in OTC areas. Watching them will teach you just how good they are and how pathetic your woodsman ship is. If you really want to drive this point home track one for a day. Holy crap are they good. Kill a few in their beds at spear throwing distance and if you aren't excited take up another sport.

Same as deer if you really want to kill a bigger animal you simply have to hunt units where there are more of them. My whitetail wall got a lot better when I switched from the NE states to the mid-west states.

In my experience the mature bulls are miles away from cow concentrations until heavy snow forces them to play fast catch-up, which they do in just a day or two if need be, then they be just a ridge away from them noisy wimmenfolk. But they don't make the mistakes that those others do, daylight in the open? Forget about it. But you can pick up their tracks and start your day's education there.

Enjoy chasing them now and never miss an opportunity, a buildup of the birthday count is the kiss of death for a serious elk hunter.

DIY hunts are like fishing. You can fish all your life, do all the right things, but maybe only once or twice in 40+ years of doing so have caught what I would consider a trophy fish.

Success is the intersection of chance and preparation.

,,,,,and perspiration, sometimes.

Llama,

That was a great post. Thanks for taking the time.

Post rut the bulls will hang in small groups away from cows. Basically find the area on the topo map that makes you say “OMG I hope I never have to hunt that!” and get where you can glass it.

The good news is you can start finding bulls pretty soon after the rut, and locate them before the season. They love thick, nasty country.

It’s normal to hike hard, bloody hours getting into position for 90 minutes of glassing. Around here bulls will be in the nastiest place possible that’s within a mile of water.

If you read T Inman’s posts from times past you will see that the best way to see lots of bulls is to go afield with only a cow tag. He has the pictures to prove it.

That's bad ass

Face it.....you'd perspire if Buzz showed up in camp.

Exactly who doesn't see trophy bulls with a cow tag?

Great pic, RC.

Great pics, but they look like young 5 X's

The front one is a 6x6. The top points aren't real big but he had a good spread. The back one is a 5x5.

SE Oregon here. They are out there, and the best opportunities are during our Sept archery season when they're announcing their presence. When the ruts over, they leave the cows and run silent.

Jeffrey,

Congratulations on being an elk killer. If your buddies keep hunting with you eventually they will score but likely always get 1 to your 4 animals. As mentioned earlier the same guys kill elk regularly- more effort, fewer mistakes more focus, better conditioning & better physical condition, persistence pays off.

Big bulls on public happen less often than finding the woman of your dreams on a blind date or the house of your dreams at a bargain price before it hits the market. Be lucky is terrible advice. Work hard to put yourself into a position to take advantage of good luck.

smokepole is just a keyboard smartarse troll that probably has never killed an elk with a bow and arrow, know`s very little about bowhunting. > alfalfa is elk candy .

my biggest bull elk killed with a bow scored 376 B.C. my son`s biggest with a bow is even bigger and that was near an alfalfa field 1/2 mile from the public land he killed his biggest bull i called in , we have killed other bulls and cows over 10 years with our bows too > always bet on an alfalfa field if your a smart bowhunter hunting elk,deer or antelope .

ok Smokepole / troll tell us some more keyboard B.S. > MYSELF I JUST WANNA HELP BOWHUNTERS HAVE A CHANCE AT AN ELK,DEER OR ANTELOPE < Pete53

LOL, sorry I pissed in your Wheaties, Petey. The fact is, 95+% of public land suitable for a DIY hunt is not within 1/2 mile of alfalfa fields. And the public land that is within 1/2 mile of alfalfa fields is also within 1/2 mile of easy vehicle access. Not where anyone with half a brain would recommend pursuing bulls.