Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting So You Want To Hunt Out West

When I was younger and hunted mostly Nevada, Idaho, Utah and Wyoming it was almost always on open BLM or ranch land which included leased BLM land. Unless you were hunting sheep or goats an outfitter was generally not necessary and certainly unaffordable. Today the rules have changed to the disadvantage of the average working man. The hunting grounds in most of the best areas are locked up by big outfitters who lease big parcels from ranchers who can always use the cash to defray taxes. Often these parcels surround public BLM land making it impossible to get in and even if you do these outfits charge big crossing fees. Of course the BLM always has a right-of-way in but the roads or tracks into this land have government locks on the gates.

The bottom line is that outfitter companies really control access to most of the best hunting. And my real bitch is they are keeping tax paying hunters from their land so that in essence the outfitters get a lease but by controlling access they get the BLM land for free. Those ranchers that don’t lease out their land are often wealthy out of staters or Hollywood types that are famous for posting the land and are frequently politically and vocally ‘ anti hunting ‘ . The hard core back pack hunters or those who are capable of lots of high climbing in remote areas can still find success but honestly this is very tough and doesn’t represent much of the hunting public.

It’s not getting any better so unless you have real deep pockets to pay the gate keepers you’re screwed. The big West is becoming like Europe where public hunting access is almost non-existent except to private hunt clubs or the entitled wealthy. Our state and federal government could care less. The states see the revenue and the feds only get involved in species protection and environmental issues so the rights or needs of hunters goes unaddressed and are thought of as inconsequential minority special interest. With gun control fights, PETA, various animal rights groups and the diminishing number of hunters every year the horizon is depressing

Rick

I have not experienced what you describe.

Idaho is 60% public land. Very little of it is locked up. There are a few landlocked spots but not many. There's plenty of room to hunt. A bigger problem is lead cows. She'll take the herd to a safe spot and she knows by long experience that those safe places are often on private land. Those old smart cows are probably the biggest hinderance to getting your elk.

There's similar parallels here in Colorado. The bigger problem here is the politics of tourism, and the intentional inflation of bureaucratic administration of the state game management agency. A maze of complicated hurdles that obligate applicants to commit more time to the process than what average people have available for recreation. Yes people passionately committed to hunting can still clear all the obstacles and find game on public land. But at what cost to their other obligations? Before I took my hiatus, what I saw up in elk country was a steady increase of people with expensive equipment and lots of leisure time.

I don't begrudge the financial burden of managing valuable state resources. They're worth every penny. But IMO the collection of what's needed to foot the bill shouldn't be a quagmire of administrative quicksand hidden in a mouse maze. Simplicity and transparency would be better for everyone.

I grew up in CO and have never paid to access public land. The only private land I have hunted there is a ranch an old family friend owns for whiretail does in his hay meadow. I have taken elk, mule deer, whitetails, black bear, pronghorn, bighorn sheep and mountain goat off public land.

If the OP is having trouble getting on public land then he isnt doing enough research.

Well let me put it this way. First I’m now too old and crippled up to hunt elk or high ground Muleys so everything I say is from recall and people I know who still hunt in mostly Western Wyoming and Colorado. So my comments are just my opinion and everybody has one but either way food for thought. Prime elk hunting areas are getting harder to access and the money being made to control many of these areas is what drives this situation. If you live where you hunt then you know how to work around such restrictions but for the guy who just drove or flew in to a state to hunt elk has a lot going against him. Elk move, locals know where and private or leased land creates a big checkerboard where roads don’t always get you there or close. This is a big problem for those with a few weeks to hunt, some topos and limited gear and no horses. This man is pretty much fair game for outfitters if he can pay his way. Last I heard there are around 900 outfitters in Colorado alone and believe it or not over 300 in the Cody, WY region so just imagine how many are around the ‘ Thoroughfare ‘ . There may be 60% open public land in Idaho but most of the elk herds are on the remainder. Anyway just my opinion and I guess you could call it sour grapes.

Years ago I hunted moose way North in New Hampshire. The largest land owners in NH and Maine are the paper companies. For years they let hunters in by leaving the gates open. In the area we wanted to hunt it was forty miles in and we had been scouting it for a month. First day of the season Champion Paper locked the gates. They told Fish and Game that hunters could still walk in but nobody could walk that distance plus no place to leave my truck. They said leaving the gates open could allow timber theft ( yea right ), that the logging roads were in poor shape and dangerous but there were several guides and others who had the keys. So I lost two months of scouting and had to seriously regroup to hunt at the last moment.

Rick

What would fix it for you? I don't think it needs fixing, but in your mind, what would fix this?

That's simply not the case. Perhaps in certain areas, but that's always been the case due to low amounts of public land.

Or perhaps doing any research.

Yes, BLM always has a right-of-way, but in the 10's of thousands of acres of our ranch property in the high desert, big empty of Oregon you won't find a single government lock on any gate.

Locks are reserved for power generation dams...

I am 60 years old, have had 17 broken bones, 4 torn muscles, have 2 screws and a pin in my right ankle, and have been shot twice. I still hunt solo out of a back pack. If you want it bad enough you can do it.

Well Mac you sound tougher than a hard boiled owl. But no sense getting into a pissing contest on a person’s physical health. I’m 77 and right now a victim of Lyme Disease that I must have contacted some thirty years ago while living in NH but the doctors never caught it. So if your legs and joints don’t work when a bout flares up I’m pretty much immobilized. Right now these symptoms flare up four to six times a year and I can’t schedule it.

Puddle: BTW the BLM does lock many areas in Western Colorado and other states. If you have leased BLM ranch grazing land then gates would be up to the rancher. I had two Uncles with big spreads in Nevada with thousands of grazing acres leased by the BLM not a gate or fence on most of it. My buddies who live in CO and who run fire crews say the locked areas are to keep vehicles and four wheelers out,

BKinSD: I don’t have a solution — talk is cheap. But I’ve sat around with quite a few local and out of state hunters and even my late Brother who worked 15 years as a guide and wrangler for several outfitters in Wyoming and Salmon, ID and listened to complaints. I hear the complaints but every time I think I know something or have something figured out it comes down to legal rights of private or business land use. Other than federal environmental governance it seems hunting wildlife is a state by state matter with money greasing the wheels. But again when I read there are 900 outfitters in Colorado and 300 just in the Cody, Wyoming area then just maybe things are out of balance.especially for the locals. Fish and Game and their biologists are only going to allow so many licenses based on their estimated herd count. Resident tags and hunters certainly don’t spend the money that outfitted out of state hunters do. I know in Colorado and I think Wyoming and Montana the pressure is to fill those tags as profitably as possible. There are only so many tags so I have to wonder what the numbers look like for over the counter resident vs outfitted non-resident tags then success rate bulls and cows in the better units. Not trying to start something just spitballing and food for thought and conversation.

Rick

Theirs is no caveat to BLM or FS land that a rancher leases for grazing. If it’s accessible, it’s open to the public.

Correct. In the case of the BLM, it's against terms and conditions of the grazing permit to prevent/inhibit another lawful use of that land. IMO/E locking folks out due to grazing permit use happens more in theory than in actuality.

But, I have found that many of those ranchers leasing grazing call it "THEIR BLM" and often
there are some less than friendly interactions with would be legal hunters trying to access it.
Just my experience. But I am sure there are many other experiences by others.

I feel you age pain woodpecker; however, I disagree with your comments. I've been hunting Colorado since 1996 and outfitters do not control the land. If it's public land, it's public land, you can hunt the exact same area the outfitter's clients do, and I do. All an outfitter does is get you to and from a remote camp, and many are not that remote, just that the hunters are not exactly in shape enough (trying to be kind here) to walk three miles to a tent already set up for them. The other thing they have is more time in the woods than most of us are willing or can afford to dedicate to elk season.

Leased cattle rights do not limit hunting. Again it's public land. Locking gates or posting the land as private is illegal. And I'm all for less cars, trucks, and atv's on the backwoods roads. In fact, I wish CO would ban or limit the use of ATV's -their use has become beyond excessive.

My gripe is that western hunting has become mainstream thanks to YouTube, Onxmaps, Google Earth, etc. making it significantly easier to find places to hunt and share hunting tactics. It's a crowded and popular activity. It's impossible to go where no one else goes. Deep-woods elk sanctuary's simply do not exist anymore. Elk have become extremely weary and educated to our tactics and at the first sign of hunting pressure, they escape to private land.

Honestly, seems like that's exactly what you're trying to do. I find that most anyplace game is concentrated, it's because access to it is restricted somehow. It's also a fact that the manner in which society rations scarce goods, whether that is big game licenses or access to game in concentrated areas, is through putting a value on it and making people pay that value.

I've also found over the years that most things that are free are free because they aren't worth anything. And oftentimes, free things that do have value are overrun with people who have little capability to appreciate the value if there is any. Thankfully, there's still opportunity out there, plenty of it free for the asking and that's a good thing. Wishing that it was better has led many people to join DU, PF, RMEF and similar groups. You might find yourself in such a situation. Anyway, sorry to hear about your Lyme's and I hope you have a great fall season!

This is pretty much my experience in CO.

A year or two ago there was an outfitter camp set up in the middle of the area we hunt. We just went along the same as we always do and hunted the same places. After day or two I figured out that the clients and the outfitters were out of shape and didn’t get more than 100 yards from the wheeler, no danger in them crimping my style. I’d wave as I passed them heading in. Waved as I passed on the way back out with elk quarters strapped to my pack.

I also have ran into several guys in the last few years who were glued to their OnX app. Visiting with them they never wanted to hear, “the big bowl up over that ridge has a pocket of timber that I’ve seen elk in over the years”, they all wanted me to zoom in on their screen and drop a pin. Sorry but no, not like I had one tied to a tree in there anyway.

There are many areas in CO that anywhere you stop on the road it’s NF on both sides. Easy access by finding a place to park and lacing up your boots to go check it out. That’s how my family has done it since the 1950’s. We don’t always kill an elk or deer but the access and opportunity to try is there. You might even find a honey hole that can be your secret spot.

An elk or good mulie ain't gonna hop into your backpack. When you hit public or blm, get ready to work your azz off for a shot, then work harder taking care of your meat. Only so much research can be done online. Get in your truck, drive, grab a day pack and some binos and do summer scouting. Heck, you might even catch a fish while your at it. Best part of hunting high country is the experience and the views. If you eat a tag, which you will most of the time, harvest data clearly explains that, big deal, your carrying a rifle in the mountains and have an opportunity at taking game. And I'm with TheKid on this one. Drop a pin? Yeah right. Get your butt up there and hunt. It's not easy. But sometimes hard, unsuccessful hunts are some of the best. The elk or mule deer is an added bonus.

I'd like to know where your numbers come from on outfitters? 300 around Cody sounds a little high to me.

Plenty of good elk hunting country open and available to hunt. Just drove through miles and miles of it yesterday scouting. Easy to just go to the store and buy a license to hunt it too as a resident.

I have hunted Wyoming since 2000. I had to stop because the rancher closed it down for the last 2 years because of the lack of deer. This year my wife and I decided to not go. It costs just $800 to hunt. I didn’t think that was bad!

I don’t really mind being called wrong or idiot or whatever as long as gets people involved sharing information and hopefully solutions. But I really don’t think this is a phantom problem — it’s real. Anyway maybe anecdotal but I had two Uncles in Nevada with large cattle ranches. Like most in the area North of Winnemuca the private ranch land may have been but a couple hundred acres but the BLM leased grazing land could be tens of thousands of acres. All the ranchers in that region ( Paradise Valley ) let their stock free graze or go wild then they got together and had round-ups which was dozens of horseback cowboys driving cows to big pens, sorted out, calved up and driven back to their ranches. During round-ups these guys would run hunters off as shots scared the stock. Otherwise hunters who were smart would just let a rancher know they wanted to hunt the land or prospect and usually no problem with most but some did not like hunters around their cows. More than once a cow would be shot either accidentally or not ? This didn’t help things. There were cattle crossings and gates at the roads or trails along the edge of private property and large fenced holding pens with gates for the round up. These were located on BLM land. If you needed to cross the private land then you had to open gates and needed permission. And trying to sneak in out there is tough as your truck’s dust trail can be seen for miles and at night the dogs take over. I recall once some hunters got thru the gates driving a truck that looked like a power company truck and pulled that off for a while but finally got caught.

In some areas of Nevada, Wyoming, Montana, New Mexico and others listed below large tracts of BLM are landlocked by private property owners. Who’s fault is this well it goes back to the Homesteading Acts of 1862 in combination with railroads, large cattle operations, giant paper companies in the East, and mining companies many of which are Canadian. It’s very confusing and one could spend years trying to unravel this mess but it should have been the federal government and BLM to admit this problem existed and solve it. But organized money has more political leverage than handfuls of public hunters. This is not new and isn’t just about hunting but prospecting anything requiring access to these lands which is mostly out West. The BLM manages 245 million acres and all are Western states I believe.

But it is not just the BLM in the West. In Maine and the mid Atlantic where giant paper companies like Weyerhaeuser, Champion, Georgia Pacific, International Paper etc own and control enormous tracts of prime land they gate access and lock. In Eastern NC if you want to hunt any of the better ground you’ll find private hunt clubs paying the companies for exclusive use and they don’t allow non-members access. Military bases also hold large parcels of good hunting land but many of them will actually give you a permit and pass to hunt them.

So when you say “ Theirs is no caveat to BLM or FS land that a rancher leases for grazing. If it’s accessible, it’s open to the public. “ and therein lies the real problem as the facts show. I think if it was just the feds and BLM it could probably be worked out by buying public right of way but where it gets tricky is if open public access interferes with a state licensed company like an outfitter or other concerns who may claim such traffic hinders or negatively affects their business. Businesses built by investing time and money. Even though an outfitter does not own or have legal exclusive hunting rights to the BLM land he’s been doing it for years and the government/BLM never told him he couldn’t. It’s almost a ‘ Grandfathering Clause ‘ also known as ‘ Legacy Clause ‘ whereby a business has operated and succeeded on property for years uncontested by the legal owners. After so many years of operating without opposition you can actually created a legal right to it. This type of legal question has standing in the courts.

For anybody interested there is one group called the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership ( TRCP ) who undertook a thorough GPS mapping survey of all BLM land and found a total of 16.43 millions acres landlocked from access by private land. 15.87 million in the Western states. Here is the state by state breakdown.

Wyoming 4.16 million acres
Montana 3.06
Nevada 2.05
New Mexico 1.90
Colorado 704 K
Idaho 279 K

I have not done any background research into this group but they have been politically active on various state and federal levels. I guess they are just another lobbying outfit but from what I can tell they are not anti-hunting and seem to be on our side. However for those interested in this group you’re certainly going to find claims of “ liberal “ hiding under conservative clothing but nevertheless they are supported by hunting and fishing groups. I honestly don’t have an opinion on them other than their publicized agenda and their statistics but please understand I’m certainly not some liberal tree hugger

It’s a pretty interesting article or write up by this partnership. As usual a cautious reader never takes anything at face value. You can find it at: www.trip.org

Rick

Wyoming has a total of about 302 licensed outfitters in the entire state, not counting ranchers that outfit their own land.
Not sure who told you otherwise but those numbers you threw out are not correct.

Still plenty of non landlocked public ground to hunt, easy or steep you can find it in Wyoming.

A locked gate does not mean you cannot access the land, just that you can't drive on it. As it should be, people can be real a-holes in the woods and even more so with a vehicle and/or ATV. I worked for a private timber company out west, we locked all our gates year round, but the land was open to the public to hunt, fish, walk, hike and use otherwise on foot unless it was actively being logged. This is land that the people paid zero taxes for, required zero entrance fees, and had zero outfitters on it. That's a pretty good deal to me.

Some years back, I was bowhunting elk in an area full of angus cattle, all BLM land. I was sneaking through a big patch of quakies when I saw black cow lying in the shade behind a log about 20 or 30 yards ahead of me. A spooked cow can sound like a tank going through the brush so I didn't want to spook it. I stood there looking for a way to get around it without spooking it when she turned her head...seems that she had 2 round black ears. It was a bear and within range although I didn't have a shot. It put it's head down behind the log and I never saw it again. To this day I can't figure out how it sneaked out of there.

You are correct wytex it was my mistake. In researching Region G and District 5 I asked about the number of outfitters permitted here and it came up “ 307 Outfitters “ I heard the UPS truck outside when I came back I recalled 307 outfitters thinking that was the total number but instead was the name of an outfitter. Pretty stupid mistake for sure. BTW I thought there were 316 total outfitters but that could be wrong too

Regards
Rick

No problem, you raised an issue I actually have interest in knowing.
I emailed the WG&OA and got an answer pretty quick.
I think there are about 30 operating around the Cody area, but again that does not count ranchers that outfit their own land, they do not need a license to do that.

I have good friends in Michigan, good folks out there in the Union City area.

I’m not from Michigan but it’s my last move as it’s my Wife’s home. I emailed the association too after you busted me but never heard back, not yet. I’ve got some friends out there in Cody area and we got to talking about the Hoodoo Ranch and how they operate. I didn’t know this is a giant land buying company called Hunt Consolidated who keeps sucking up big valuable ranches out West. Apparently they prosecute trespassers who cross over and have been pretty strict about it. Not sure how much BLM land they have leased but I think it’s substantial. They leased out all hunting operations to 7D outfitters/ Dude Ranch operation. Hunt Consolidated which is the Hunt family, HL Hunt, Bunker Hunt etc are the famous Texas drillers, silver speculators etc. and I’m sure they or their various companies are alive and well in gas rich Wyoming. Enough of this huh. I can’t do anything about any of this anyway I just like to know who’s doing it.

Rick

Not seeing such in Oregon. Fifty percent public across the state and about 70% in this 10,000+ square mile county.

If BLM and FS land is national land, then why do the states regulate hunting on this land? Why does the concept of nonresident license fees apply?
It eeems that this land should be equally accessible to all US residents

The federally managed lands are equally accessible to all US residents. The animals being hunted are state managed regardless of where they’re at (USFS, BLM, state land, private, etc.) and ‘belong’ to the residents of specific states. That is why states can charge residents vs non-residents differently for licenses and tags. Much like college tuition.

The feds don’t charge different rates for a resident/non-resident to camp in a designated camping spot on federally managed lands for the same reason.

You been under a rock lately, this is an old argument and decided by the courts and Congress.
You are free to access any and all public lands in any state that has access but the state gets to manage the wildlife on it and has the right to limit NRs hunting.

Woodpecker we have another couple of big, out of state LOs down here buying up land, I feel your pain on that.

I don't see the diminishing number of hunters. Mostly in my local area here in Idaho I see fewer local folks and lots and lots of Washington state folks around that time of year. The demand is very high but honestly there's not near as much game on my place starting around this past decade. More people coming in, less resource, and shortened seasons.

The only real opportunities left IMO outside of public land is self propelled backcountry locations where there's fewer folks. This takes out most older folks and out of shape folks but it's called hunting for a reason. If a person no longer can do this activity and all one can do is an drive up and hunt on a ranch type affair then maybe it's time to give up going after game and start another pursuit like F-class type competition of some of the black powder rifle matched from a fixed firing line. Theres seasons in life .

Idaho was getting so overrun with non-res hunters that they had to put a cap on how many non-res tags they sell. There are only so many deer and elk and the number of hunters after them was getting out of hand. It's turned into a real fiasco for a non-res to get a tag now.

Nonsense…at least in Idaho.

Because the states own the game Dummy. SCOTUS ruled on that decades ago

You guys answered my question … could have done without the condescension.

I think you'll find that the next 5 to 10 years will take a big toll on your body. 60 is LONG way from 70. I'm 75. At 60, I was tough but I could see down the road that the elk quarters were getting heavier and heavier. My knees are in pretty good shape now but very few of my old hunting buddies can say that. My hips will let me go a long way but not with a load.
If you've gone through all that, one of these years it's all going to crash. You can keep hard at it and suffer the crash, or you can slow down and preserve what you've got left. That might get you another 5 to 10 years.

Well sorry, that has been discussed ad nauseum since the corner crossing case.

Look up US law 109-13 section 6036

You very accurately described many parts of Wyoming……getting worse every year! 🤬 memtb

Like where?

wytex that is a great reference link to the federal law dealing with this problem This is something that non-resident hunters should read. Though it’s a bit lengthy and typical political legalize wording it’s no worse than a rental car agreement. But the Marquette Law Review is pretty good at condensing this legal argument so I think most should be able to read the issues plainly. I can actually see both sides of the “ Hunter v Hunter “ argument and the why some states desire to discriminate against non-resident hunters by restricting tag numbers, playing with seasons and enforcing very high tag fees. At the same time the case is made that the good elk hunting states could be overrun by out of staters if there are no controls. Not sure how valid that point is or the possible numbers, if there are such, but I guess it could be a disastrous scenario if their argument is sound.

One element throughout this review that bothers me most is that many states protect the outfitter business above any non-resident hunter. Many make no distinction between out of state outfitters and locals as it applies to the confusing laws regarding interstate commerce. The out of state hunter is treated as a non tax payer and charged accordingly but outfitters seem be treated differently. It just appears that the outfitters really have the game sewed up just like so much of the land locked BLM land they have access to. My attitude is that if they cannot make their business work without stacking the deck then something is very wrong. I believe they would still have plenty of business even if open access and lower tag fees existed. There will still be lots of hunters who can afford to hunt with outfitters as most are business or work restricted for time. The typical non-resident hunter can’t scout and spend weeks to get back country to stage a good elk hunt. They typically don’t have horses or full camp outfits unless they are the rare backpacker hard core hunters. Not to mention the outfitters know where the elk are moving and how to get to them

Rick

I’ve hunted NW Colorado for a little over 20 years in high pressure zones with too many hunters getting worse every year. In that time I’ve killed 20 elk mostly cows but some decent bulls mixed in all on public land.

The amount of landlocked BLM where we hunt is criminal. The BLM should Sell or trade public land or buy access to it in every case with parcels over 1,000 acres. It is a ridiculous waste & giveaway program for wealthy ranchers.

Like many I’ve thought of buying a small place to gain access but couldn’t swing it. I agree that the current situation sucks but there are still millions of reachable public acres for someone willing to hike & scout a little to fill their tags.

I’m in my 60’s with normal wear & tear & still enjoy covering some ground - being the oldest fattest guy on top of the hill is still on top of the hill. If I make it to 77 I’ll be content to hunt within sight of the truck/ranger & let younger guys push them to me.

I'll be the bad guy here, no one has looked at this from the land owners side, you want access to public lands that hold Deer and Elk or other critters. you all hate locked gates and you and your buddies should be able to drive you SXS or 4 wheeler anywhere there's a road,
Your 10 day out of state trip is more important than the owners right to protect his land and live stock, 365 day's a year, how much time have you spent fixing fence, roads, picking up trash?? NONE, the money you spend on your well researched Elk hunt mostly goes to the State, the locals benefit from what you buy in town, that does not help the rancher.

Not all land owners are wealthy in many cases they are land poor, what money they get from guiding or trespass fees, will help but won't pay the upkeep and taxes on the land. most of you have no idea what it takes to be a large land owner, no one is paying the owner to own it but you want use of the land when your there, wide open and free. Flame Away Rio7

Life is full of choices. The area we used to hunt has been inundated with non resident hunters. California, Washington, Utah, Texas, etc. I moved on and hunt elsewhere. My choice. The incessant whining from non residents gets old. Don't come. Hunt elsewhere.

Exactly. Out here in Oklahoma, it's a free for all. Won't see a sole until opening day of rifle, then there is an orange hat on every corner. Drive in from wherever for Thanksgiving to hunt grandpappy's farm. Bet 99 percent of them don't have a dang thing to do with the land until deer season. Make some land payments and pay some interest. It's the price you pay to have your own ground to hunt. I'm quickly learning in my search for public ground in southeast wyoming for an elk the chances of seeing an animal on one of those tracts is slim to none. I wouldn't mind paying a trespass fee to kill an elk, even a cow. World we live in guys, ain't nothin free. As far as landlocked blm, heck I wouldn't be willing to sell or trade land so Joe blow can have his hunting access. And who can blame the ranchers for taking a huge check to tie up with an outfitter or outfit themselves? Most of them make a hard living, and the way I see it, they are utilizing their available resources. There are places to hunt, just do research and get in your truck. You have a year between hunts and there is alot of available information.

Hunting the west has never been easier for the diy hunter. All it takes is a little effort.

I think the concept of land swaps is more difficult than people think. For starters you have to have multiple parties interested in a swap. Do you really think landowners with prime hunting ground are going to swap that out? Not a chance unless the swap creates a larger buffer against public hunters.

No one has mentioned the Slob Hunters, A name that given to most out of state hunters even though it is earned by only a few.

Most hunters are considerate but do not realize that closed or locked gates have a purpose. Livestock there so hunt another pasture, high fire danger

Due to tall grass. Hunters driving off road instead of walking to a hunting spot Pastures littered with trash that could be taken to a trash bin.

This a farmer or ranchers home. Treat it with respect. The same that you would expect from visitor's to your home.

There are jerks on both sides of the issue. Ask permission, respect your host wild game eats his grass and he doesn't get paid for being a nice guy.

,

Lots of space here in Oregon. The issue now is drawing tags. Might take 2 or 3 years, and maybe 20+ for a couple premium units.

Funny, when I think "slob hunters" I far and away think of in state hunters, not out of state hunters...

I would rather hunt around " Slobs" than Libtards

Agree and same here.

Yes there is that to. Instate slobs are easer to hold accountable.

A hunter on a ranch in eastern MT failed to fully bone out his kill. He left all of the meat along the outer back.

He received a letter from the owner. Do not come back.

Most libtards are Slob's, there are a lot of slob hunters but very few libtards that hunt. Rio7

My Dad called it "filling in the corners of ranching".

There was this fellow who always came out to the ranch, a business owner from the big city. He would show up in a new pickup truck (he favored Dodge) and packing a Weatherby loud-n-boomer. And for reasons I could never understand would ask for me to "guide" him. Of course to "guide" one assumes someone will actually follow the guides directions.

More than once I had to finish off the poor creature he'd managed to whack, he with his loud-n-boomer, me with either a .30-30 or M1 Garand - whatever I was packing that day.

Running a small to medium sized cattle ranch isn’t for the weak and it’s seems if you’re lucky the only real good money you’ll ever see is the day you sell it the Hunt Bros., Kuenke or one of the multitude of land buyers or developers. My two late Uncles had good size 30k acre ranches in Nevada most was BLM grazing leased. The beef business just got worse and worse between the feedlots and the big meat packing outfits there wasn’t much in a dollar for the poor rancher. Then when the kids got out of college they weren’t interested in that much physical work so what to do ? Seems like the cattle ranchers that could make were the Basques who usually had really big families and they stuck with it. Your comments are right on RIO7 and Coyote10 you’re just telling it like it is unfortunately.

As for Idaho I lived there a number of years and honestly can’t believe what’s happening to parts of it. My Wife just returned from McCall and Idaho Falls and brought home a stack of real estate brochures. I just about puked. The entire content of three of them listed nothing but cut up ranch properties being sold by the Knipe Land Co. Everything was listed from 250 to 600 or more acres running from 1.3 to about 50 million dollars. Looks like the developers are doing very well cutting up the pie. Back to Wyoming where the historic and incredible land that was the Hoodoo Ranch abutting Yellowstone and private land is locked up by Hunt Consolidated out of Texas. Hell they are making enough off of their gas wells so you’d think they’d be happy but no. The ranch is 100% lease by the big dude ranch company 7D and try to get in and they will prosecute. The biggest is the Q-Creek Ranch at a paltry 560 thousand acres ( largest in WY ) owned by Kroenke along with more giant ranch property in AZ, Montana, and British Columbia or around 2 million acres. In Wyoming he runs his own outfitting service. I found it impossible to find out how much of his land is BLM. Believe me this is just the tip of the iceberg. These people don’t buy junk land and many still run some stock but I’m sure this has more to do with their tax exposure.

We as hunters are like commercial fisherman, you can’t put ten in a room and expect consensus. Right now the Biden Administration just cut funding for Hunter Education as it deals with 6 firearms. Not much resistance nor many who even knew about it. It just sailed through. The land conservation groups are really the only ones who are funded and fighting to preserve public recreation access. They aren’t always a hunters best friend but they generally don’t exclude us. We certainly aren’t getting any help from the NRA and our dollars, or the multi billion dollar hunting and fishing equipment industry. Just maybe, “ we found the enemy and it’s us “. So as always it’s money and big business that greases the wheels in the capitols, both state and federal. So with some effort maybe the feds and states will listen to the music from their own purse strings. Just look at the number of LGBT political action groups out there and the money and political horsepower they’ve generated — really the LGBT you gotta be kidding

Rick

Plenty of Libs on THIS site, at least one posted on this thread

I wanted to hunt the west until I tried to get tags. Then I decided to only buy leftover tags. Then I decided to not even bother.

Yep, anyone planning to hunt elk in the west should reconsider. I hear Kentucky is the new hotspot.

Anyone that pays an outfitter is making the problem worse. The only people that hate outfitters have actually met them.

You must have tried Idaho. The demand has far outpaced the supply of game. The IDFG has had to cap the number of non-res tags because of the high demand and now it's a real fiasco getting one, either deer or elk.

That's funny right there.

Some of the best Elk hunting in the U.S. is in West Texas no Elk tag required Free Range.

Elk are considered invasive species, buy a over the counter no resident license in most cases pay a trespass fee and hunt your little heart out, or you can buy a hunt with a outfitter & Guide. there's some big bulls is West Texas. and no BLM to bitch about. Rio7

Lol ya just a 10k dollar trespass fee lol. I'd rather deal the the blm and fs

Jackson Handy, Don't know where you get your information? but there are many places to hunt for a fraction of $10000, you might try looking. Rio7

Ya.....

It’s asinine that TX classifies elk as exotic, nongame animals. They are native to TX and there are numerous examples throughout the US of species being reintroduced to their native ranges and then managed as the native game animals that they are. Turkeys are a prime example. TPWD needs to get their S together.

Good to know. Thank you.

Those elk hunts are expensive to say the least and you're not going to just go out and hike the mountains to find them either, it is all private for the most part.

There is no shortage of hurtable public ground out West, getting the license is the hard part.

Tags are not hard to get in Texas. And in Colorado the hunting trips are free YAH Right. Rio7
,

We all know tags aren't hard to get in texas, it's access that's almost impossible. Yes I'm sure if you have a buddy, whose uncle knows a guy, it's great. But let's face it a western elk hunt in the west (Mt, Wy, CO, ID) is nothing like an elk hunt out in the trans-pecos region of Texas.

Access is not difficult as the OP would have you believe.

I know Wyoming hunting trips are pretty dang cheap, Yah is right !!!

Rio knows full well that elk hunting in Texas is expensive if you don't have an "in", or just go high fenced. They do grow some big bulls out in West Texas.

Again plenty of access all over the Rocky Mountain areas.

Jackson Handy, I was Born in Meeker Colorado, raised on a ranch on the White River, my Uncles Have Ranch's West Of Craig, and West of Baggs, Wyo. my son has a ranch West of Durango, my Grandson has a place South of Silt, on Divide Creek, and I have a Small place on the White river just past Buford , East Of Meeker, I killed my first Elk in 1948 with my Grand fathers model 94 30-30, There's not a hell of a lot you can tell me about hunting North Western Colorado, I bought my first ranch in 1965 South of Jackson, Wyo. on the Hoback river, Guided for several ranch's in the area, Been there done all the stuff you guy's are always talking about.

North west Wyoming turned into a Liberal Schitt hole, worse than most of Colorado, so I sold out and moved to S.Texas, where all I have to put up with is ILLEGALS, beats the hell out of living with LIBTARDS. behind every tree. and the hunting and fishing is better here than there.

Rio7

That's cool and all but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Accessing public land has never been easier, which is relevant to this thread.

Good for you Rio sounds like you got out at a good time.
Has nothing to do with the cost of elk hunting in Texas either.

Disagree on the hunting here compared to Texas though, but we are all entitled to our opinions.
How often do you elk hunt in Texas Rio, low fence free range elk that is? What is your cost on said hunts?

I live in TX and I have not found anyplace that will let you hunt elk for a reasonable tresspass fee here. I can get a non res CO tag and drive up there to hunt for less than I can hunt free range elk here in TX. Granted I can shoot a cow elk or red dèer hind on a game ranch for less than going to CO but not a bull.

I am not saying there are no reasonable tresspass fees for elk in TX. But I havent found them. Perhaps someone can give me some contact info because I would be all over that deal.

^^^^ I would dearly love to hear about some public access lands for elk in Texas

Sadly , Rio will have no answer for you I bet.

Good way to get your feet wet is cow tags in Wyoming. Yes, we still have plenty of access.

The public should have access to public property. The government should just Eminent domain a right of way like they do for all public roads.

TrueGrit. I think in a perfect fair world you have found the solution but it’s really quite complicated legally. Eminent Domain is enforced by the Federal Govt, state and county law so you can see what a squabble would entail if the feds came in heavy handed and enforced this. There are several states that have no Eminent Domain laws on the book and in fact prohibit such. Idaho and Texas are two such states. However it is the Fifth Amendment of the constitution so unless the Supreme Court takes the case this problem will remain. I’m a bit vague on this but my readings indicate lower courts cannot rule on this right regardless. Eminent Domain requires three elements to be put into action but the first is public access to BLM governed lands.

The laws that govern BLM land states that access to their lands for the public including recreation must be provided. I think hunting and fishing would certainly fall in the category of recreation. Since the BLM already has Right of Way to their governed land I can’t imagine that they would have to pay a fair price for it but I’m just spitballing here. I’m thinking with a Right of Way already in existence it could be as easy as the feds just making a decree for recreational public to cross. But here we are today wondering why they haven’t ? It will take Congress to force this through and I don’t see anybody interested in pursuing this in Washington DC .

Below is an interesting legal review and summary of BLM access. A lot of this review just seems contrary to the conditions we are up against today

Rick

www.blm.gov
Chapter 3. —Resource Area Profile

Yea, you ain't doing nothing cheap in Texas as far as and elk goes. Wyoming can be done for the money, but access is the problem, obviously. Landlocked blm or checkerboard blm will remain as an outfitters or adjacent ranches extra hunting ground. Best thing you can hope for is a 2 track that runs into or along side blm or public. NF is cool too, once again, if it has access. So how does access become available? Deep pockets boys. Court adjourned. Way it is. Way it goes. But hey, all you can do is buy a tag, work your azz off, enjoy the views, and hope you see elk. Way I look at it.

I would expect that it would require a compelling interest to a large amount of people to use eminent domain. Like they cannot put a bike path over your land

for a few people. Property rights are some of the foundation of why we do not have a king. It is mine and I do not want the world spoiling it.

Not having access to landlocked public will soon be a thing of the past. Already drones are carrying hundreds of pounds. How long until you can get delivered by drone to your hunting spot? I'm serious, in less than 5 years, outfitters will be trying to outlaw this.

I am not sure if I am reading some of these responses right, but a federal land management agency such as FS, BLM, USFWS, etc. doesn’t necessarily have a ROW to access the lands they’re charged with management of.

Sometimes there are formal or even informal agreements with landowners for work related access of .gov employees, but that is not always the case. Many, many of the landlocked pieces of federally managed lands are inaccessible to even the land management agencies. I know of a few places in Montana and Wyoming where the only legal way for FS or BLM to access some of the public parcels—-even for legitimate work related reasons—-is by aircraft as landowners absolutely refuse to allow road access. I believe this has even been held up by courts (which I agree with) but am unsure as to what court level.

To be clear: this is a different issue than corner crossing. I am referring to 100% landlocked public parcels, not checkerboarded areas.

State can't do anything in terms of making access better. Land locked blm must be accessed through private. What if a river runs through private up to the blm/fs? Can it be accessed then? Talking large rivers here not trickles. Rafting and fishing guides float them without a care and get to fish private water this way. So could one float a canoe down to private and access it that way? Highly doubt it, but you never know. Interesting thread.

I'm at a loss as to how about 24 million acres of public land equates to little or no access.

This varies by state but for the most part, yes.
A boat can be used on navigable rivers and streams to access landlocked public land with no legal road access. Even a pair of waders can get you access if the water isn’t too deep and you stay in the water or below the high water mark, again depending on the state.

Specifics vary, but generally all water ways—-at least surface water—-are state managed. I am not sure how private ponds work, or where the line is drawn between private ponds and other water bodies.

Don't know about now day's but back in the 60s in Colorado if you put a boat or raft on a navigable river you could float thru private land but put one foot on the bank and you were trespassing on private land, and subject to arrest. Rio7

What I gathered.



If there isn't a 2 track, road, easement, and it's landlocked, it's not accessible. Checkerboard is cool if you can access that one section. After that your done and back to the truck for some drive time.

Our group has a tougher time getting tags than we do places to hunt and take elk. If you can get a general or cow tag in Wyoming you can generally get on elk if you can hunt a mile or so from the road.

Which is why I got the hell out of Texas! Hardly any public hunting land and unless you're willing to pay ridiculous fees to play, it is very unfriendly to sportsman.

Idaho has a recreational easement on all navigable waters up to the normal high water mark. Exactly where that mark is can be very questionable sometimes. In the fall, during low water, sometimes you have a lot of land accessible along rivers. Hiking along it, though, is often a miserable job - steep banks, rocks, logs, thick brush, etc. It's often blocked completely without crossing or at least getting wet. Packing out meat can be misery x10.

That 24 million acres I mentioned is accessible public land in Wyoming, not landlocked. We have about 8 million acres of landlocked land.
24 mill is plenty for hunting.

Some fold commenting and they don't even know what they are commenting on.

Yes navigable rivers are legal access in many states, just don't anchor or touch the bank or stream bed through the private lands. Wyoming allows portage onto private to go around obstacles in the streambed or across the river such as fences.

Think how nice it will be when you stick it in the drone and fly it away.

Terms like navigable and meandered and non-meandered have specific legal meanings. Make sure to fully understand them before exercising your rights.

Few things tick me off more than the way WY outfitters have locked up wilderness there from non residents. Theft.

Several units have plenty of land. I agree. Some are not so. Will be one access point to a checkerboard that's 20 miles deep. But, your only limited to the portions along the road. So now you have hunting ground along a major highway or county road, and past 1 mile often times your done. So the outfitters and land owners pretty much have the ball in their court when it comes to the checkerboard. Now wyoming is going to issue like 2000 elk tags for area 6 and 7. Lots of public ground, little access. They claim they are over run with elk, but if you ain't on private it's gonna be tough. Doable, but tough. I will soon find out.

Yep, outfitters got their way on that for hunting. Still open for everything bit big game hunting unless you have a guide and you can have a resident guide for free.

Plenty of access in area 7 with that public land, area 6 has little public land, you'll find out.

Pretty easy to not apply for an area with little access, leave those licenses to those that have access maybe.
Apply in area with good access, solves lots of problems.

The checkerboard is not the whole state, hunt elsewhere, and the fed gov't made that problem not Wyoming.
By the way lots of that checkerboard is open to hunting, you just have to call and ask. One small area caused a stink and it is getting remedied we hope by the courts.

Maybe I haven’t bored you enough so think about this. When we talk about navigable waters there are two definitions used by two branches of the federal government. The first deals specifically with waters that are subject of tidal flows and used for interstate or foreign commerce controlled and regulated by the Army Corp of Engineers. This is defined in the CFR ( Code of Federal Regulations ). This actually has nothing to do with this discussion. The second definition deals with Waters of the U.S. which is defined and controlled by the EPA under the Clean Water Act. This gives the EPA control of all rivers, streams, creeks or tributaries and lakes in the U.S. This act is all encompassing and controls waters and vital resources supporting public health, environmental protection, agriculture and economic growth. Closer reading reveals that the EPA and other associated agencies may not have clear cut authority for rivers that form state or territorial boundaries. The above noted laws and provisions have been challenged almost continuously since its inception so as of today it’s as clear as mud.

As for access through private lands the EPA specifies that the public can float or transport through private lands on these rivers, streams, or lakes if they are deep enough and wide enough for a floating conveyance or boat to travel on most of the year. Frozen water is not clear on this. But here is where it gets legal and binding for trespassing violations. According to the Public Trust Doctrine which is defined in the US Constitution allowing the public to use waterways for navigation, commerce and fisheries. It has since been broadened to include, right to swim, boat and engage in other forms of water recreation. It basically establishes that nobody can own the water and that it must be accessible to the public. So private land owners have no title to the water but they do have riparian rights or the land associated with the banks of a body of water, river, stream or lake or high water marks on the coast. However here is where it gets technical. The private land owner has ownership of the banks and bottom land to the middle of the river or stream. If he owns the land on both sides he then has ownership of the entire river or stream bottomland but he doesn’t own the water or use of it nor can he build on it and impede movement by water. Think about that for a while.

Rick

In Idaho, 'navigable' is defined as any water big enough to float a 6" x 6' log or any kind of boat, including a float tube. That takes in about anything bigger than what you can step over.

You'll know if it's navigable or not. Trust me. If you've ever waded a stream to fish you know how treacherous that sucker can be. River banks always change, that's why there are riparian rights. Gain and lose land daily. I'd hate to pack one out on foot along the bank of a (river) much less paddle back up the dang thing.

T-Inman was mentioning that even the BLM or Forestry Service may not have access across private land. I respectfully disagree. Please understand I’m no lawyer but I got sued by one once. Anyway the BLM and FS must have access in order to manage fire control and brush removal on some parcels. They also need access to control drainage problems, wildlife protection and other environmental issues. Today much of this is enforced and managed by the EPA who pretty much has a hand in almost all land use matters. But the U.S. Constitution emphatically outlines these issues in the Public Trust writings that decree protection of the U.S. waterways, and natural resources. This essentially insures access and prohibits anybody who tries to profit from these lands without expressed federal leases or permission. It also specifies general access for recreational purposes by the public.

Right of Ways are actually easements and there are two legal types. A Gross Right of Way and Appurtenant. A Gross ROW is the type that municipalities or utility companies have for road or power line maintenance or construction. But a Gross ROW allows the holder to sell the land but not legal ownership. On the other hand Appurtenant ROW is the type that allows the holder to pass to his property that is landlocked, a legal right. I’m guessing the BLM and FS have such which is also known as a easement by necessity. The more you read on this the deeper it gets so my interpretation may be a little off but I think this is pretty close. The bottom line is that a Appurtenants ROW always stays with the land even if owners change while the Gross ROW easement is tied to a person or company who owns it and can be revocable because they can sell it . Clear as mud — no ?

Rick