|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800 |
FWIW: Phil Sharpe wrote in his book The Rifle in America: Winchester advised this author that the {Model 54} rifle first made it's appearance in April 1925, and was first manufactured in the .30/06 caliber. Perhaps this is true. The author has been inclined to doubt records from time to time but he recalls with keen interest a great many years ago -- at least two years before the Model 54 came out -- he shot one of these in the Winchester laboratories.
This particular gun tested was in a then new and freak cartridge: the .270 Winchester centerfire. It is with pleasure he recalls that he was privileged to preview this excellent little caliber which essentially was nothing more nor less than a necked-down version of the .30/06 cartridge. Furthermore, the neck is continued with the exact same angle of slope as the .30/06 and it is not generally known that the head-space gauges for the .30/06 can the used in the .270. Sharpe stuck to the same story in his book Complete Guide to Handloading. The .270 Winchester cartridge is another necked-down job on the .30/06 cartridge. This was first produced by Winchester in 1923, but not anounced for several years thereafter. The author first saw this in the Model 54, for which it was designed, during a vist at the factory in the above-mentioned year. Sharpe's been wrong before, but since he shot a .270 before Jack O'Connor heard of it, I'd take his word that the .270 was derived from the .30-06. Since a .30-06 necked to .270 is longer than a .270, the derivation from a .30-06 seems logical. --Bob
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
The .30-03 may have been obsolete by 1905, but its case was still the basis of the .30-06 and the .270 Winchester.
My grandfather came to Virginia in 1621, and was a legal colonist.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32,244 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32,244 Likes: 2 |
I have read that the 270 was originally a new cartridge and bore diameter designed for the Chinese as a military cartridge in the Mauser 98.
Jeff
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,762
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,762 |
I have read that the 270 was originally a new cartridge and bore diameter designed for the Chinese as a military cartridge in the Mauser 98.
Jeff I too seem to remember hearing/reading something along this line. I am not sure, but I think the Chinese cartridge was off the 6mm Lee case and not the `03 or `06. I can`t remember when nor where though.......you`re likely more right then I 
I must confess, I was born at a very early age. --Groucho Marx
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when they deserve it. --Mark Twain
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810 |
The .30-03 may have been obsolete by 1905, but its case was still the basis of the .30-06 and the .270 Winchester.
My grandfather came to Virginia in 1621, and was a legal colonist. Ahhh, let'see Lee24. - If your grandfather came to Virginia in 1621 (that's 376 years ago), you must be mighty long-in-the-tooth by now.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
I would have to do some counting to see how many great-great-greats there are on that grandfather.
The .30-03 is the father of the .30-06 and the .270 Winchester, and the grandfather of the .25-06 and the .280 Remington.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,128 Likes: 11
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,128 Likes: 11 |
stop asking these stupid questions.  Hey, at least this is a legitimate gun-related query. You want to see stupid, go up to the "campfire" section and you will find stupid +P+, in wholesale quantity.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 13,065
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 13,065 |
The .30-03 may have been obsolete by 1905, but its case was still the basis of the .30-06 and the .270 Winchester.
My grandfather came to Virginia in 1621, and was a legal colonist. Ahhh, let'see Lee24. - If your grandfather came to Virginia in 1621 (that's 376 years ago), you must be mighty long-in-the-tooth by now. More like long in the nose from telling lies. Mike
Always talk to the old guys , they know stuff.
Jerry Miculek
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,916
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,916 |
You want to see stupid, go up to the "campfire" section and you will find stupid +P+, in wholesale quantity..... Carefull there MM you'll piss someone off.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,128 Likes: 11
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,128 Likes: 11 |
Hell, I'm guilty of contributing to the drivel, now and then.
I'm not making a career of it though.....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 704
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 704 |
The 270 was designed to have the same neck length as the 30/06 and that makes for a greater overall length because when you neck down you shorten the neck.
When you neck down the lower portion of the neck on the bigger calibre forms part of the shoulder on the necked down case.
If you a put a 25/06, 270 and 30/06 together then you will see that the distance from the head of each case to junction of the shoulder and neck is greatest with the 25/06 then 270 then 30/06. Thus if all three cases had the same overall length then the smaller calibre will have the shortest neck. On the other hand if you give each calibre the same neck length then the smaller calibre will have the greatest overall length.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,916
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,916 |
Do the 25-06, 270, and the 30-06 share a common datum line ?
Might throw the 280 in with that question as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800 |
Do the 25-06, 270, and the 30-06 share a common datum line ?
Might throw the 280 in with that question as well. According to the SAAMI drawings in my old NRA Handloading book, the headspace dimension on the chamber of the 25-06, 270 Win, and .30-06 is 2.0487" minimum, 2.0587" maximum. Diameter at that length is 0.375". For the .280 Rem, the values are 2.110" max, 2.100" min, and 0.375" diameter. --Bob
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 53,303
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 53,303 |
Actually, Jack O'Connor was a space alien.
His Starship missed the Roswell target, ...so he made the best of things....in the Tucson area.
The cartridge dimmensions did not come from this universe.
live with it.
Best wishes, for a Merry Christmas.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800 |
[snip]
My original source was Jack O'Connor's 1964 book on hunting rifles, where he describes how he heard about the .270 being developed in 1923, and put himself in line to receive one of the first ones to try.
[snip] Lee- Could you post the title of the 1964 book and the page number(s)? Thanks. --Bob
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
BFaucett,
The US government had to pay money to Mauser to settle a patent infringement suit over the .30-03, because it was based off the 7x57 and 8x57 cases, and on the .30-06 for copying the Mauser light .323 spitzer bullet, and on the 1903 Springfield action.
Not only does the .270 Winchester have the same case length as its parent, the .30-03, but also the same overall length of 3.34 inches that the .30-03 has with its standard 220-gr round nose bullet.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,831 Likes: 5
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,831 Likes: 5 |
BFaucett,
The US government had to pay money to Mauser to settle a patent infringement suit over the .30-03, because it was based off the 7x57 and 8x57 cases, and on the .30-06 for copying the Mauser light .323 spitzer bullet, and on the 1903 Springfield action. There's some really good info about it in Jon Speed's new book "The Mauser Archive". ![[Linked Image]](http://www.collectorgrade.com/images/MauserArchive.gif) Available here: http://www.collectorgrade.com/-Bob F.
"Whose bright idea was it to put every idiot in the world in touch with every other idiot? It's working!" -- P. J. O'Rourke
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 577
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 577 |
The M 1 Garand prototypes were originally chambered for the 270. When the Grand hit Douglas McAurthur's desk for final approval (He was Army Chief of Staff), he sent the design back to be chambered 30 06. The deciding factor: The Army had warehoused full of 30 06 ammo.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800 |
RogerK-
I suspect you're confusing the .270 Winchester with the .276 Pedersen. The story is told in Hatcher's Notebook, pages 158-169. Ken Waters wrote an informative piece about the .276 Pedersen in Handloader #131. Both this article, and Ken Howell's cartridge book have drawings of the Pedersen.
Capt. Grosvenor Wotkyns wrote a glowing report of the .276 in Hunting & Fishing magazine of January 1929.
--Bob
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,954
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,954 |
Hard to believe that such a simple question could stir the souls of so many! I think some folks need to get a job and off welfare, I mean get a life..Whats in a silly milimeter? 
|
|
|
|
|
197 members (160user, 300jimmy, 257 mag, 10Glocks, 300_savage, 22 invisible),
1,683
guests, and
988
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,194,539
Posts18,531,106
Members74,039
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
