Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats Light Rifles caliber choice/understanding recoil

I have a fairly ltwt 375-cal rifle and using a 300gr Nosler the recoil difference between 2550+ fps and 2500 fps is amazing and if you drop down to around 2460 fps the rifle is a real "pussy-cat" to shoot. I've been to almost 2600 fps and it wasn't fun...after a 3-shot group I pulled the remainer of the bullets as it wasn't fun at all.

The Boy remains CONVINCED that his 7 Shamu recoils less than his 7-08.

Both are Model Seven based,wearing McMillan handles and 6x42's.

I just nod my head in agreement........................(grin)

My point is that the recoil pad is not in the equation and it should be. The lack of or composition of a recoil pad is a major factor in felt recoil.

99:



You are absolutely correct, but your point is not germane to the goal of the original post (as stock fit also is not).



When folks start getting the hankering for something lighter and handier, they rightfully get concerned about recoil. When all they've ever shot is a 9 lb '06 or 300 winny or whatever, they have no idea what to expect from a 6 lb. something or other. Since I've been posting about my stupidly light rifles, I've received dozens of PM's about this subject.



I simply wanted to provide a frame of reference that anyone could grasp. That is if they know the recoil level of a certain combo that they feel is a comfortable maximum for them. (As an example a 9 lb 7 rem mag) then they can simply apply that recoil level to the chart and find the cartridges that give similar levels in a rifle of their desired weight. If they already know the caliber they want, they can then figure out how light they can go without knocking their ears off.



In discussing a subject like this, stock fit and pad selection should be optimal and considered as a given. Otherwise there are simply too many subjective variables to reach a conclusion.



JimF

Dang you guys, you could develop a flinch just reading this stuff! 7lb. 7 mag is comfortable to shoot except for prone in a t-shirt for very many rounds. Have wanted to lighten up my .338 but in the back of my mind wondering when do you cross that line of what you're comfortable with. Shot my bud's .458 Lott off hand a couple of weeks ago, I want more of it, but not from the bench, he can do load development and I'll help him burn up some of that cheap ammo <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Can't wait to get my .338 in my new Macmillan (Dang you Stick, Mac stocks, Ingram knives.....my wife doesn't even know who you are, but pretty sure she hates you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />) gonna have to have the .338 refinished and when I do, have the barrel fluted, chopped to 23" and drill a hole in the bolt handle, don't believe I'll relieve the action as too many holes is a good place for leaves and chit to hang up in. Now that .45/70 with hot loads at 7lbs. has some snort, not bad on the shoulder but man does the middle finger take a whacking from the lever! Had to show my pards which finger was crying after shooting it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Good thread JimF, you is some good 411 son. 1ak

Interesting post. Two weeks ago, I went antelope hunting on a ranch with another hunter in camp. We both went to the practice range to make sure our rifles were still sighted in. One shot from the Ruger #1, ho hum.

The other guy pulled a brand-new, Tikka T3 out of the case. It was chambered for .300 Win Mag. He handed it to me to examine. Wow, very light. How do you like it, I asked. Well, it really kicks, was the answer.

First shot at paper, 100 yards, was 4" low. A second shot managed to get closer to center.

Two days later, I watched him miss two easy shots, from a rest, at around 250 yards. He wasn't sure if he was over, under, or what. The next day he connected, on a 75 yard opportunity.

I have to believe that recoil, and fear of same, had something to do with all this.

I never caught this thread the first time around. Since I like big bores, I've learned to deal with recoil. If you want to shoot a given caliber, then you can set up a gun to make it shootable. I think it's when folks look at the numbers vs making the gun shootable, ie target gun weight, target bullet and velocity, and end up with something that is a pleasure to carry, but a nightmare to shoot.

Honestly, the best cure for shooting peppier small and medium bores is to shoot a big bore. I've fired my previous 458 lott and lightweight .308 side by side, and the .308 litterly fealt recoilless after firing the 458.

As far as powder charge weight affecting recoil, it is not only the charge weight, but the burning rate. Someone earlier mentioned RL 15 compared to 4350 as I recall in a 338 win mag. Well, I had the same experience in my 350 Rigby. I worked up to 66 gr of RL 15 under a 250 gr for 2700 fps even, and 72 gr 4350 under same bullet for identicle velocity. The RL 15 load was just fine, the 4350 was one of the rudest cheek slapping loads I've fired from any gun.

As far as slow push, I've pushed 600 gr bullets to 2200 fps in my 500 Jeffrey by burning 100 gr of Varget, and it wasn't an unpleasant load to shoot off the bench. It did roll me back considerably upon firing, and the sand bags seemed to fall on the ground after every shot, but I was having fun.

I've had days where the bolt slap from my 10/22 caused me to flinch, other days I'd wished I had more 458 lott ammo to burn.

We aren't talking about guns to shoot 50 or 100 shot strings at targets. A lightweight wizzum can be handled by most, just work up some loads, and don't fire off too many rounds in a session. That's what a 22 rf is for!

Last year I sent quite a few round down range in my 7.7lb STA. Early on it rapped my pretty good, even with a heavy jacket. Later in the summer I would shoot in a T-shirt without any problem. Just got used to it and, like was mentioned, the fit was good.

All my rifles wear them excecpt the .22's

Boyoyboy!!.........The subject of recoil is apparently one that interests many folks. Since this thread was resurrected, I've had several more PM's about light rifle recoil etc. Here are some more general thoughts.

Most people that flinch badly don't know it or won't admit it. I spend several weekends each summer as a "range moderator" (litter police) at our local shooting area. The number of folks that I see with rifles of all flavors that can't keep their shots in a 6" bull @ 100 is scary.

As has been suggested, I too believe that an experienced shooter can adapt to almost anything (within reason). The problem is that the average Joey shooter won't take the time or spend the bucks on the ammo. He thinks that because 2 or 3 of his 10 shots are in the X ring, he's good to go. He totally ignores the other 7-8 shots that look like a buckshot pattern.

BTW: this same guy usually thinks that his whizbanger "shoots flat to 500 yds" too.

It is my opinion, that the amount of recoil that one can "tolerate" and the amount that one can sustain while doing their best shooting are usually two different things. A year ago, I thought that my 6 lb. 338-08 was about as much gun as I could handle. Now, after several hunded rounds through it and the even lighter 284 and 6.5x284, I am more comfortable and realize that I could take more. However, it is unlikely that I will intentionally build a rifle that delivers more recoil than what these three do. I am fully aware that I handle the recoil better and therefore shoot better with the lighter recoiling loads for each rifle.

Just another penny in the pot and YMMV as always.

JimF

Rick, my 338 weighs in at just a hair under 8lbs. Recoil from it doesnt bother me, I attribute that to the stock that I bought from you.
It just works great for the recoil factor.

There are 2 factors in recoil.
One is how much free recoil that is generated. This is a mathmatical computation that can be calculated to a high degree of accuracy if all of the factors are included such as gun weight, projectile weight, velocity, powder charge weight etc..
The second factor is how the recoil is handled. Stock fit, recoil pad construction, stock design etc. are determine how the recoil is delivered to the shooters body. If you spead the same amount of recoil over a 1 1/2" pad vs over a 3/4" Pad one is handled much more "comfortably" than the other etc.. I've yet to see a good mathmatical model for this one, so until then it will have to remain subjective.
While there is only so much you can do with a large amount of recoil the 2nd factor can play a huge difference in how much an individual shooter can handle.
The slower recoil factor may be a myth but I can introduce you to dozens of black powder shooters that will swear to you that it's true.......DJ

I guess I better start this one with a <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> so no-one gets the wrong idea.



I've got it! We just have to start a campain through our gun writer friends on the board to advocate responsible hang tag ratings on factory firearms. All rifles will contain a JFRR (JimF Recoil Rating <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) so that the shooter understands and can compare recoil in various firearms in various chamberings before he or she plunks down the green. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Of course, in order to be litigation free and socially acceptable to all, it would have to contain a disclaimer such as:

if your hat falls off and your gun is pointed skyward then it might be a bit much. i have learned to hang bags of sand off the end of the barrel and convince others the shoot my guns. much more entertaining <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
if your shooting 70 grains of powder and your gun weighs under 6# then you will get popped. newtons rules, not mine. hike up your skirt and let then blood flow where it may <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
woofer

dj, good post...

djp:

(a) You restate the obvious as others have. Stock fit and pad design are of course huge factors. However, when making a decision on rifle weight and caliber choice for a new gun, one would assume that those factors would be equal. Otherwise the comparisons are pointless.

(b) With your black powder analogy, you again make a redundant point. Without calculating recoil velocity of a BP load I would stipulate that recoil velocity would probably be substantially lower than a smokeless centerfire. That difference might therefore be noticable. My point was that the "slow push" reputation of some big bore centerfires comes from the fact that they are generally in much heavier rifles. When fired in similar weight rifles, the big bores come back hard (and fast) just like the hotter small bores do.

So...............neither of your points are incorrect, nor would they get any argument from me. However, when someone is trying to figure out how much recoil they can take in order to decide on a rifle weight and caliber, your points are simply not germane to the process.

JimF

Problem is most people borrow from a bud to see if they can tolerate the latest choice and stock, fit, pad, and load is whatever's handy. The result is all thing's ain't equal.

Agreed that the only way to tell what you can handle weight wise is equalize the other factors first, but most don't...

Hence the reason for the information in the original post.

JimF

Jim F,

What kind of rifle is your 6.5X284? I have two light rifles, both ULA. a .300 win mag and the 6.5x 284. I practice a lot with the 6.5 so the trasition to the .300 wasnt too dificult. It certainly does come back and is pretty lively, but easily managed. To me the bigger transition was switching from hunting with fairly heavy rifles. It was harder to hold the light rifles steady from field positions and my technique off the bench is different, but now that I am used to them they work just fine. I do think a light crisp trigger is more important on a light rifle than on a heavy rifle. Just shot a nice gtrzzly in alaska at about 200 + yards from a sitting position and was able to place my shot right where I wanted.

BD

lefty:

Mine is built on a highly modified M-600. With a #1 fluted barrel @ 21" it weighs in at 4lb. 15 0z. all up with a 2x7x28 compact. Stock is a non cataloged MPI model, somewhat modified as well.

I absoluteterly agree on the light trigger and on shooting technique. These specialized rifles are not for everybody nor are they the only types of rifles I'll own. They are however, the best tool for the job in some cases. (backpacking, steep gnarly terrain, etc.)

JimF