Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles How many of you are using moly, and how do you clean?

I developed some loads using moly which I still have, and I've noticed that the method of cleaning I was taught, using JB and Kroil, is not so popular anymore.<P>If I use copper solvent, will I take the moly out?<P>Also, I heard that moly can a a corrosion accelerant. Is this true. If so, should I store my molyed guns with a coat of grease in the barrel?<P>I wonder if this stuff is just too much hassle anymore.<P>elian

Elian, I dont think Moly should be abandoned its good stuff when used properly. One problem that most people make in using Moly is cleaning too much. In the beginning the bore must be squeaky clean, no carbon and no copper. Then start shooting Moly'd bullets and dont go beck to naked bullets in that bore. When you get back from the range just use a patch with your favorite solvent to remove the carbon. I do the heavy duty scrubing and cleaning at 200 round intervals. The bore just dosn't accumulate fouling like it used to. <BR> <BR>Moly is not a corrosion accelerant. I havn't seen anything like that.<BR> <BR>Removing all the molly is really hard to do. I havn't seen the Copper solvents removing much moly any more than the others solvents. and Iv'e used most of them. In fact I use ED's RED most of the time.....Ray

Hi Ray. Thanks for responding.<P>I take it from your answer that you don't use the Kroil/JB method.<P>Do you use any brushes with the copper solvent, or any abrasives at all, like JB, or do you just patch the bore out with copper solvent? This can take a while sometimes if removing all the copper is the objective!<P>Also, I noticed that you mention not to go back to naked bullets in the bore. Will this spike pressure? I know that moly's frictional coefficient is low in terms of moly against moly. Is moly on copper more friction? If so, this would tend to spike pressures, right?<P>Also, do you use the plating method with the BB's that NECO developed, or do you use spray on? Which do you like and why?<P>Thanks a lot for all the help Ray. I know these are a lot of questions, but I need to get clear on this stuff.<P>elian

Hey no problem things are a little slow here so I have some time. With the copper solvent I use brushes but not the bronze. Use nylon. The bronze brush will leave green residue thats picked up by the next patch. I couldn't tell when all the copper was gone. The copper solvent I use most is Sweets it seems to be the strongest. Best copper remover of all is the Outers Foulout. I have a home made one that does pretty good.<BR> <BR>I've used JB and it works. Just not something I use regular.<BR> <BR>Never used Kroil although I hear its a great penetrating oil. Just dont see it here in the stores. My main everyday solvent for powder stuff is ED's RED that I make up. Good stuff but dont work on copper.<BR> <BR>Shooting Moly bullets will build up a Moly plating in the barrel. Thats the goal, is to get this plating and keep it consistant. If you run a naked bullet the velocity will be eratic and will take a little of the moly out. Then the next moly bullet wont be like the last moly'd one due to the barrel not having the same coating as before. And I hear that it would take maybe 30-40 naked bullets to completely rid the bore of moly. Some guys say it'll never completely come out.<BR> <BR>Everyone I have heard thats tried to run a mix moly or no-moly sasy it dosn't do well.<BR> <BR>I've been coating my own bullets in a little Baby food jar. Dump in a 100 and a smidgin of moly. Seal the lid and tape it so as to make sure it don't come off. Put the little jar in the Viberatory tumbler and let it run for about an hour or so. The bullets will hit each other and do the impact plating like the BB's were for. Works.......Ray

Elain,<BR>Just a thought the moly coating was designed for varment shooting because it would take longer for the rifle to heat up, after doing some searching I descoverd that I could not get the same speed because the bullet was slicker that the copper. I then spoke to several gunsmiths as well as a rep from Winchester all stating that they could see no real benifit in using the moly bullets in normal deer hunting. Besides this it takes more powder to accoplish the same vel as with a regular jacketed bullet, not to mention the added cost for the bullet.<BR>So Why then?

I dont use moly. I have read up on it and i dont think it is worth the hassel for no real benefit. Shooting times just had a two part article on moly and from that and other things i have read and observed, it is not worth using. By the way, when i clean my rifles, I use Butchs Bore Shine. I tried this and have been very happy for it.

I have found only two reasons for using moly. More shots between cleanings and the potential for more velocity. On average I can add more powder and get around 100 fps more velocity with out exceeding pressure limits.<P>I also don't agree with the kroil and JB cleaning method, especially with the larger calibers. I was unable to get all the copper and powder fouling out. My 300 win mag with a factory barrel was severly fouled with copper and a carbon like substance. The carbon was close to the chamber end of the barrel. I did get it clean after much cleaning, even had to use a bit of fine steel wool and JB on a bore brush following the advise of Sierra's techline. I now clean the moly bores as I might any rifle. <P>I start with a mixture of Kroil and Shooter's Choice. Two wet patches are run through the barrel. Then a bronze bore brush with same product. This residue is removed with a few dry patches. This is followed with a patch wet with brake clean. A few more dry patches. Then I switch to either Sweetes or CR-10. They both work about the same, but CR-10 soaks into the patch faster. less drippy. I will send copper solvent down the bore until all copper is removed. Then the brake clean through the chamber and bore with the bore guide removed. finally more dry patches. If you live in a wet climate some oil or transmission fluid (Walt Berger's suggestion) would finish the job.<P>I cannot see any difference in performance and no rifle needs more than two or three foulers to get the accuracy on track. Velocities don't change either. I cannot prove it but I believe not all of the moly gets removed. ( go over to bench shooting and read the post on removing moly ) <P>Incidentally I do not use moly with my most recent rifle a 338 win mag. It does not get fired much and has ample power as is.<P>My $.02 ....Ross<P>

I am a FIRM moly believer. Often velocity can be increased and I can 1000% see the benefits,regarding NONfouling. Best invent I have seen,in quite some time......

And now for a slightly differing point of view. I used moly for several years in my .25-06. I discontinued for several reasons. (1.) I still had to clean the bore whether I shot 5 shots or 50. When I thought I had the bore clean, using all current methods for moly, my Outers Foul Out would still pull out scads of junk: fouling and copper - lots of copper.<P>(2) I began to develop a formation of what might have been carbon/moly buildup for two or three inches just ahead of the chamber. The cleaning rod would literally meet a lot of resistence. Removing it took a lot of JB on a tight patch, followed by scrubbing with a good brush. Not sure if I really did get it out.<P>(3) Following conventional wisdom, I often shot 50 or 60 rounds between cleaning. At least in my bore, that was perhaps unwise and led to the formation of (2) above.<P>Note: the rifle was a Savage Tactical with heavy barrel and the barrel was rough rough rough. It would shoot sub-minute groups but it was a copper mine.<P>(4) I began hanging around with some of the guys that shoot 1000 yard bench rest in Williamsport Pa. None of the competitors I could tell used moly. Calibers ran the gammut from 22-243 to 30-378. All bare bullets. When I asked why, the answer was always the same: fear of carbon/moly build-up. Besides, a good barrel from Hart or one of the other fine barrel makers are so smooth they barely copper up at all, and when they do, they clean out easily with any good copper cleaning solvent.<P>So there's my $.02 worth. I currently purchased a custom Remington 700 in .280 Ackley Improved, with a 24" Hart barrel. The barrel cleans up with minimal effort. That's one bore that will never see moly.<P>This reply isn't meant to start an argument on the pro's and con's of moly. It's merely a statement of "the other side", if you will.<P>Been there, won't go there anymore.<P>John<P>

Howdy: Ol Grouch here, I guess another rat from the sinking ship of "that other" board. I've found moly to be a real benefit in my .17 3-groove Ackley and in my 220 Swift's. I don't mess with it in hunting rifles with 1 exception, my .338/06. That has always been a serious one to foul, but I now treat the bore with Mrs. Moly bore treatment and use only molyed bullets. Fouling has essentially stopped. Ol Grouch

I hear you John A.<P>I had the same thing happen in my 300 win mag and my 284 win. Both had factory barrels which might have been a factor. They were both rougher than any of my douglas barrels (3).<P> I formerly used the kroil and JB method of cleaning. Talked with Walt Berger on the subject. He had never heard of the carbon buildup in the throat area at that time around three years ago. <P> I read an article that Ross Siefried wrote on the 6mm Mach 4 wildcat. It shot 75 gr 6mm bullets around 4000 fps. He said he did not clean the bore often enough and created the same mess. He said a carbide pic could not dislodge this carbon. A barrel maker had cut a barrel in two and tried to remove it with the pic. Ross went on to say he spent a great deal of time polishing it out. After that he religiously cleaned after 5 to 10 shots. He said flitz, Jb or rem clean worked wonders. He wasn't using moly. <P>I believe the problem is that we were told that the kroil and JB worked so we ended up not cleaning our rifles. The kroil and JB might work for the small bores but I believe there are more things working against us with the big bores. I have thought about this at length and have a few ideas. I am no expert, but it seems that there is a greater force on the lands to twist those larger heavier diameter bullets and there is definitely more powder. The two combine to make a mess in the throat area. <P> I wonder if the same thing would happen without moly. We need to find someone with a big bore to just clean the bore with Kroil and JB and see, as a control. Interested?<P> When the big bores got carboned up...I tried everything. Sierra's techline told be to get some bronze wool or fine steel wool and put it on a bore brush with JB, and try to polish the affected area. It did work but it makes me shudder to think what it might have done to the bore.<P>Since that time both my 284 and the 300 have been rebarreled. I did not go with moly with the rebarreled 300 now a 338 as stated in my earlier post, above. I did use moly again with a new Remington take off barrel which only cost $110. I carefully broke the 284 in and then applied the moly.( the original 300 and 284 were old when they began using moly) I now clean it as I stated above and have not had a problem since. <P> I have a Douglas 284 which is a real screamer. I shoot 120 ballistic tips at 3400 + and use moly. It behaves far better than the other 284 with the Remington barrel. I can get more rounds through it before it needs cleaning. A couple of times after 35 or so rounds I had to go to JB to remove the beginning of that roughness/carbon buildup. If I keep the number of shots around 25 the cleaning is easy.<P> There are so many factors to consider, hard to get a good control. I believe that there is copper build up on ALL rifles, regardless of whether it uses moly or not and that this has to be dealt with.<P> I am glad to have found a place where I can discuss this with you and others. Talk again.<P>--Ross

Hi Ross. The great debate on Moly goes on. And surely won't end with us here! One of the great things (at least I think it's great) is that there are so many approaches to what is essentially a common goal: to shoot well, to shoot as often as possible, to continuously improve, and to try like the devil to reach out farther and farther with increased effectiveness. I believe that some or all of these points connect us all.<P>Most likely, I won't take you up on the offer to use my Hart barrel as a test of Kroil & JB! Oh, I surely have Kroil, and the inside of the Savage bore saw alot of the JB! The gent who built this rifle, Jim Borden, suggested 2 parts Shooters Choice/1 part Kroil. Also moderate use of a good brush. The barrel cleans up so easily, that I don't want to screw up a good thing!<P>One other comment concerning caliber size: you may be right, but I also think that using hot, high pressure loads (like my 25-06 with a max dose of RL22 and Berger 115gr VLDs)does no good for a rough barrel, Moly or not.<P>Since cleaning techniques (even Walt's) are so varied, especially where the barrel quality is concerned, what works for one may not work for another. Too many variables, and in long range shooting and precision reloading, what I don't need are more variables! I suspect (but can't prove) that there are a lot of good shooting rifles out there with very dirty barrels. I have a friend who only shot moly after breaking in a new barrel with the shoot one and clean method. He was telling me that he only uses a couple of patches to clean his bore. After all, the patches showed no discoloration, thus there couldn't be copper in there. He brought it over one afternoon, and we stuck my Foul Out in his "clean" bore. 4 hours later, after cleaning the rod every 30 minutes, we had to drain the bore and add more cop-out. It took two days to clean the bore, intermixing the foul out sessions with scrubbing sessions of JB. Also wore out a bore brush in the process.<P>But....he still shoots moly, but is a lot more diligent in his cleaning methods.<P>Different strokes for different folks!<P><now getting off the soap box. Sorry about that!><P>Glad to meet you Ross.<P>John<BR>

Hi John,<P>Right you are too many variables. <P>I have been using that mix of kroil and shooters choice for a couple of years now. I is a great first chemical for cleaning out the powder.<P> I will admit that out of my 6 rifles only 4 now use moly. a 25 inch douglas barreled 22-250, the 24 1/2 barreled 284 win, an early POST 64 model 70 and the Ruger 284 win. The most recent ones do not use it. A 338 and the newest rifle a slightly used 7 x 57 Ruger. Do you see a trend? It looks like I am starting to move to the heavy slow side of the hunting rifles. Plenty of good things to say about bullets going under 3000.<P> Speaking of VLDs...I just tried my first ones in the 22-250, 1 in 10 twist. JLK's 70 grainer..wow! I have yet to send one into a jack rabbit or coyote, but maybe this weekend.<P> Sure like this site. Good to talk to you.<P>--Ross<BR>

JohnA-<BR>Ditto your comments on moly! After 2 years of playing with the stuff in a 22-250 AI and a 25-7mm Rem Mag, I've gone back to clean bullets. The only use I have for moly now is as a inside neck lub.

I use moly for all my smaller calibers, especially the .17 Rem. I also use it for 22-250, 257 STW, and .264 WM. When I switched to moly, I could run nearly 200 rounds through the .17 before I noticed accuracy going south. Before, I had to clean it after about 20-25 rounds. Redneck

Have a 257 Weatherby thats been giving me fits with fouling after 5 or 6 rounds. It's had about 8 or 10 five shot sessions at the range and been severely JBed after each to clean things up. I mollied it up about 3 weeks ago and came home with copper again. More JB, remollied, and went through 10 mollied rounds today. Presto! no flyers and no copper when I got home. I run a patched 22 caliber brush with a little JB down the tube and it scrubs moly and all out in a matter of minutes.

All of my bullets are either "moly" or "dansak" coated (the dansak we do ourselves). If you want to get the moly out use top engine cleaner. It works great. As far as moly coated bullets increasing veleocity, the first time I ever heard that (which I don't beleive) is here. If you add more powder, well then you would get more velocity,,,, then again if you add more powder behind non-coated bullets you increase velocity as well. Everything I have been told by experts and have seen thru the crony leads be to the conclusion that moly coated bullets (using the same load of powder) de-creases the velocity. I would be interested in knowing how there is an increase without adding additional powder. <P>Oh, you can buy "Top Engine Cleaner" at most Auto parts stores. <P>Hope this helps, Don

Listen to Jn316, there are no draw backs to molly. To get it out use a s/s bore brush and nitro solvent or carb cleaner. All the velocity mix up comes from the fact that people are still using the same powders and loads as before. When you decrease the friction between the bullet and barrel, its in essence like shooting a lighter bullet. Until people realize that using molly lends to using faster powders, it's not going to get the raves it deserves.

For heavens sake keep the Stainless brush outta your bore!<BR>There are many ways to roughen up a bore but none as easy as a stainless brush!<BR>Bad Juju!<BR>Use the rare earth bore cleaners(JB,Rem bore cleaner) if things get bad,and don't sweat the occaisional deep cleaning if you get to feeling guilty.<BR>Moly becomes almost permanent at a small level with the steel in the bore because of it's affinity with the carbon chain in the steel.Just lightly bore prep before the next time out to shoot,and start over.<BR>Be concious of neck tension on your moly loads as this is where some velocity is lost.<BR>Keep your loads sane and don't count on Moly to uniformly drop pressures...it wont.<BR>Also if you drop me an E-mail I will send you an interesting blurb from a nuclear technical design consultant about the effects of Moly on stainless steel degredation,and the byproducts of moly oxidization.The stuff is not totally benign.<BR>Cheers!<BR>E4E<P>------------------<BR>Remove the mechanical variables,and then you can only blame yourself!<BR>http://home.intekom.com/upfront/cost.htm

I agree. Keep the stainless steel brushes OUT of your bores. It's JB or RemKlean for me.<P>Rick Bin

Prefer the Kryptonite brush with the jet powered bore guide & nuclear cleaning rod myself. badger.<P>------------------<BR>Keep the traditions alive, take your child hunting.....

Yeah,yeah,yeah,<BR>And a frosty Lion to dip the brush in when the bore is clean!!!<BR>I gotta ask.My bud Rick in S.A. has fits finding good gear and is limited to Somchem powders for loading.Did you have fits of euphoria for your first months here in the states with all that is available??<BR>You Boers make good Yanks cuz ya know what what you AREN'T missing!<BR>BOK NAII!<BR>E4E<P>------------------<BR>Remove the mechanical variables,and then you can only blame yourself!<BR>http://home.intekom.com/upfront/cost.htm

WWChamplain,<P> S/S bore brush? HUH? <P> Why don't you slap some 80 Grit sand paper on the end of your cleaning rod? You can get that Molly out then and you will have the added benefit of getting rid of those pesky groves that you have in your barrel. <P> You should be able to get some astronomical velocities out of it then. <P> Paul

E4E,<BR>Am still in a state of euphoria after 15 years here. Was reminded just how euphoric I need to be when I vacationed in South Africa last May. Its not so much the prices (they are a little higher for the important things like guns etc) but the lack of selection, the long wait to get what you ordered IF it ever comes, the red tape bull**** even to buy ammo. Darn right I appreciate things here. Now if we can just get Castles a little easier VRYSTAAT!!!!! <BR>badger.<P>------------------<BR>Keep the traditions alive, take your child hunting.....

JB Bore cleaner? Use it to lapp my barrels, oh ya no abrasive there. Next time some of you go to the shooti'n shop, pick up a s/s brush and a bore scope. I'm deaf to guys with paper a** holes.

WWChamplain,<P> What in the hell are you talking about?<P> Make some sence man.<P> Paul

Ohhh Yoo Hooooo......<P>WWCody/Boyd/whatever......<P>Guess what, you're busted!!<P>Have a nice day MATE.<P>(sic) CHOW!<P>badger.<P>------------------<BR>Keep the traditions alive, take your child hunting.....

Badger-<BR> <BR> WWChamplain is NOT your infamous Cody. <P>Paul

Settle down there Walukewicz or I'll be advocating to your old lady that your retirement be in Maryland, you can be closer to the in-laws and it'll be great to visit you for a white tail hunt every other year.

WWChamplain,<P> Hey Numb nuts, You really aught not let your ass over run your mouth. These guy's have some good info and are willing to share as long as you don't insult them. Why don't you try to explain what you were talking about with the s/s brush and the JB bore cleaner I.e. how you clean your rifle with the s/s brush.<P> Oh, if you tell my wife that I want to retire in Baltimore I will find your ex and drop her off at your house for ya.<P> See ya in May!!<P> Paul

OK Paul,<P>Guess I jumped the gun here. <P>WW, maybe you've got the message? Your abrasive manner tends to get things started off on the wrong foot, so to speak. Perhaps if you tone things down a little, the responses would be a little less caustic. Please explain the S/S bore brush thing as well. <P>Better to stay silent and for people to think you're a fool, than to speak and have them know it. badger.<P>------------------<BR>Keep the traditions alive, take your child hunting.....

Ok Badger but it won't be long winded.<BR>S/S bore brush 2passes 1 in 1 out. Puff of gray dust each time (good) no dust-molly is oil cont. once you have broken the surface of the molly it's all she wrote, clean with patch and nitro (copper solv. $$$ not necessary) JB occasionally, def. not every time. Test: take clean rifle and 3 patches, apply JB to 2, one clean, run 1 JB through bore follow up with clean patch. Now compare all 3 ? why is the once clean patch blacker than both JB patches, and from a clean gun ? Because the once clean patch is now covered in micro. particles of your gun barell. ie: you're removing metal! other small fact, s/s brushes don't fit as tight as the brass ones yall are used to, s/s has a bad rep. and it's mostly urban ledgend type stuff. <P>And don't pay any attention to walukewicz, he's always been ****ed cause I have prettier guns. (it's been evident since the time he took my Wetherby shot gun by the barell and tried to drive a 10" spike into a pole with it, if any of you ever end up on a hunt with him, for Gods sake don't let him near your gun)

Champlain,<BR>JB IS an abrasive,that is the point of it.<BR>However it does NOT cut steel as it is too soft to do so,therefore bore damage will not result.<BR>Perchance you do get your hands on a borescope do a before and after in the bore of your favorite rifle and take a look at the scratches that SS brushes leave in their wake.<BR>The rare earth cleaners like JB,Rem bore cleaner,Iosso,and the stuff from Corbin are widely used by the benchrest community in barrels that are the most accurate in the world because they have been proven to be safe and effective.The same cannot be said of SS bore brushes.<BR>As for paper a**holes....<BR>Bud you have a funny way of debating a topic and I do not appreciate it one bit.<BR>Back up your ideas with information to support them,not pointless juvenile personal attacks.<BR>E4E<P>------------------<BR>Remove the mechanical variables,and then you can only blame yourself!<BR>http://home.intekom.com/upfront/cost.htm

E4E, Find a company or lab in your area that does oil analysis or similar, take a patch that has been run through the bore with JB to them and ask to have it analyzed, I think you will be suprised.

WWChamplain,<P> Hey that shotgun thing was YOUR fault. You gave it to me. We both know that my guns are better than your guns.<P> Paul

Ive used moly and have found it to reduce copper fouling.But I worry about the crap down the tube I cant get out.A good SS barrel that has been broken in right is never that hard to get clean.The best information ive seen on the subject are articles written by Dan Lilja.He does not like moly at all.Im not going to argue with one of the top barrel makers in the country that owns his own borescope.His web sight is riflebarrels.com<BR>be safe dave7mm