Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Bore Scope Eye Opener

Got my first look at a rifle bore through a bore scope today. Wow. The things you see. Only wish I could have gotten some before and after photos. Have been running in a circle with a 1950’s 722 in 257Roberts bought recently. A good friend who puts a lot of effort in to the benchrest side of shooting invited me to his shop to investigate. Well that barrel was coppered heavy, and has a bit of pitting out near the muzzle.
I had given what I thought was a good effort on it with Montana extreme at my place last month. Much to the dismay of others living in the area above my gun cave. Overnight soaks for three cycles.
So in steps we got after it with some various products. This included Bore Tech eliminator, JB paste, Kroil and a good amount of patches. (Plus a nice bore guide, stock cover and other rods/jags etc). When we called a truce the inner appearance was amazingly different.
I don’t know how it’s going to shoot and won’t see a range for a good bit due to work, but will report on that when the day comes.
Just really blown away by how much fowling was in that barrel and the efforts it took to get close to clean. I’m sure it’s a candidate for DBC and will look into that this spring as time allows.
For those of you with a scope it must be entertaining seeing the look of friends when you show them what they are missing.

Had a Kimber in 308 that would never shoot to it's potential. Tried every thing from cleaning to Tubbs abrasive bullets with very little improvement. When I got a Teslong the reason was revealed. It was horribly pitted from one end to the other. Wish I could have seen inside from the start. A bore scope would have saved a lot of time and money. Good luck with your Roberts.

Have owned a bore-scope for over 20 years. Have seen bore "horribly pitted from one end to the other" that shot pretty well a number of times.

Yes, bore-scopes are very useful--but what they show does NOT always indicate how well the rifle will shoot. Plus, there are ways to "help" such pitted bores.

Have generally found that a bore-scope's biggest virtue is revealing how various cleaning products work--but whether even that makes a major difference is another question....

Amazon.com/Teslong-Borescope
Well spent $139

Bore scopes and factory rifles dont belong together. Also would not subject a friend to the anguish of seeing what the bore actually looks like.

They are cheaper than that on their website and military/vets get a 25% discount.

I've seen this mentioned quite a few times, and its interesting in how hung up people get on "how does the bore look?" questions. Now, I can understand if its an old wartime mil surp rifle, where corrosive primers/lack of cleaning can destroy a barrel. Personally, I'm only concerned with how it shoots. Doesn't mean a bore scope can't be useful, though.

No, it doesn't--which is why I spent $800 around 20 years ago to buy my "old-fashioned" Gradient Lens Hawkeye scope. Learned a lot from it--and also bought and thoroughly tested a Teslong a couple years ago.

The Teslong worked well, but did not provide anything close to the detail of the Hawkeye. Which is why I eventually sold the Teslong, though it also has some advantages over Hawkeye, such as being able to take photos of the bore easily, and having a flexible tube, which helps considerably when looking at, say, the chamber/throat area of a lever-action. Published an article on all this not long ago.

But my main point is that a bore-scope, of any type, cannot predict how well a particular barrel will shoot--which is what many folks still apparently believe.

I have a Savage 99 in 303 Savage (1924 vintage) that was the very first rifle my father ever purchased. He bought it used and the stock had been redone when he bought it. It always shoots well with its open sights. I attempted to clean it when it was given to me. It took a lot of time. I decided to look at the barrel with my borescope. It is as rough as a 80 year Florida women who loves the sun. It is bad...but it still shoots accurately. I have a life time supply of ammunition plus brass and dies. I do not even plan to "help" the pitting as it shoots just fine.

I say this to back up what JB wrote. If you looked at this gun you would think it is trashed but it still has plenty of life (and deer) left in it.

Thanks for the experience guys.
When I first got this rifle it shot a few targets “OK” with one or two of the bullets on hand.
But that accuracy and precision generally went away.
I was beginning to consider things like the scope/bedding/crown/last case rebarrel.
Im glad my friend owns his teslong. Now I can return to the range and without having changed a lot of variables get a baseline to work from.
If it goes back to “reasonable” with a clean barrel then its a solid hunting rifle(that likes cleaning).
If it doesn’t then its a project rifle.
My other center fire rifles shoot pretty well without a lot of scrubbing. Thats part of why they are keepers.
In my eye the borescope is a tool to aid in choices where a rifle may be wavering on project rifle status.

Bran new 17 pound bench gun Hawk Hill barrel.
6.5 GT.


28 Nosler.
With less rounds than I care to mention.



dave

Dave. That’s impressive photography. I was glad to see the throat in mine was not shot out. But the contrast to a modern target barrel like yours to 1950’s Remington is “eye opening”.
I see the bore scope and can understand how it could lead a rifle owner down some unproductive rabbit holes. But it just steered me in a path of discovery that won’t include bedding or a scope change just yet.
But DBC might move up the priority list after doing some baseline testing on the 100 yd range

The other really good use of a bore-scope is using "lapping" bullets to smooth out chamber throats like the one in dave7mm's second photo: You want to just shoot enough of 'em to lose the "gator skin," which generally extends a barrel's accuracy life considerably.



Might also mention that throat erosion doesn't always affect accuracy. Here's a photo of the throat of my Ultra Light Arms Model 24 .30-06, which I acquired in 1997. This is after around 1000 rounds, and the Douglas barrel still groups as well as it did when new with handloads it "likes", and it likes a lot of 'em--around 1/2" for 3-shot groups at 100 yards.

Just like low ES and SD on a chrono do not nearly guarantee you have found the holy grail load.

How much better does it shoot now with hours of scrubbing time invested?

Hi Bob .
That's just a rigid Teslong-Borescope .
Wifi to my phone.
That's it. Nothing special or fancy.
Handy as all get out.
The 6.5 GT shot very well .
First match I ran Staball. Did ok. Farther testing and I switched to H4895 and won the very next match.
Came in second overall in the two day championship.
I'm very happy with the thing.
JB is right.
The best use of a bore scope is looking to see if your cleaning routine is getting it done.
I've found that things can sneak up on you .
The biggest killer of accuracy I see is built up black chit.
If it gets ahead of you. Chemical cleaners won't touch it.
That leads to abrasives.
Thorough flush thorough clean is what I use.
When things get out of hand I dig out the witches Brew.
dave

JB
First year for the big 28 Nosler.
Turns out blasting 84.5g of N570 down a 7mm hole does bad things.
Figure a 175g Accubond at 3200.
Absolute hammers the deer. Very impressive.
Kinda a shame abusing a nice Bartlien 5R this way.


dave

My 6.5 Nosler shows some bore erosion thru the Hawkeye after less than 500 rounds. I’m guessing a 1,000+ barrel life. Accuracy hasn’t changed, still a sub MOA Shilen barrel.

And I’ve used N-570, which isn’t easy on barrels. Now that I’ve tried many combos seeing what it’ll do, it isn’t shot as much, just an occasional hunting trip. Should last as long as I do.

DF

Dave,

Yep, it's interesting!

Believe the quickest throat erosion I've seen was with a 26 Nosler. It looked similar after not too many rounds--but kept shooting well for hundreds of rounds.

But have also seen definite--though slight--signs of erosion in .223 Remingtons after maybe 250 rounds, though it didn't affect groups. My favorite example is the Remington 700 Varmint with a laminated stock I bought a little over 20 years ago, and when relatively new (say the first 500 rounds) would put 5 rounds into 1/4" at 100 yards, using 50-grain Ballistic Tips sorted with a Juenke machine.

However, after around 2500 rounds (often shot through a very hot barel) groups started opening up--which is when I saw the gator-skin moving around three inches in front of the chamber. So I fired enough lapping bullets to smooth it out, and groups shrank considerably. (Will also note that the late Chub Eastman, long-time marketing guy for Leupold and then Nosler, and life-long rifle loony, used a custom .223 for most of his prairie dog shooting for years, and only rebarreled it when it quit shooting minute-of-dog at 300+ yards. He had the barrel sectioned length-wise, and the rifling was basically gone for the first foot in front of the chamber...)

My Teslong was the flexible one, because I wanted to see what was happening in barrels of rifles where the scope couldn't be inserted from the chamber end--such as my my Marlin 1893 .32-40. The photos weren't as clear as yours, but they were good enough to tell what was happening. After using it for a year or so, sold it to a local friend who was always ask to come over and have me scope his barrels. I still had the Hawkeye, which does not have the camera attachment (and costs around $1600 these days), but provides a noticeably sharper and brighter view than the Teslongs--partly because Gradient Lens allowed me to swap my original model for their latest upgrade a few years ago. But if starting all over again would buy a Teslong.

Will also note that the very best bore-scope images I've seen were when visiting Dan Lilja's barrel factory, as I recall shortly after buying the Hawkeye. Dan had a state-of-the-art video scope, which showed the image on a 2-foot TV-type screen. But Dan has always been very particular about his barrels....

Yep, a visual tells things, but not always how a barrel will shoot. A friend won either a yardage or the agg at a Kelbly's Super Shoot one year with a barrel deemed toast when scoping it.

Big understatement there DF.


dave

JB.
Haven't had my Teslong for very long .
So I've still got a lot to learn.
Before DonKnows passed I scoped his 300 WM.
When you first get a bore scope you tend to want to look at everything:-).
We had twin WMs built by Dan Dowling back in the late ,90s.
If I had to guess I'd say the thing has around 500 rounds down the tube. We shot it out to 650 yards in 50 yard increments for almost 20 years.....
I'm not sure how familiar you are with tool & die shop terminology.
So most tool shops have what's called a sinker EDM machine. You use a copper or carbon graphite electrode to electrically erode steel.
The finish inside Dons barrel, just ahead of the chamber,has a very light speckel of what looked like a typically EDM finish. Wasn't checked.
You could tell it had been shot. But that's about it.
And certainly looked better than my 28 does in pick up top
Just a light speck...
I told Don that at his current usage that he would be a very old man before he had to worrie about it..

Dave



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Very interesting!

Yeah, I know about wanting to scope everything after getting one....

Another example was a Winchester Model 92 .25-20 made in 1911, if I recall correctly. It shot jacketed bullets well, but not cast, because it was of course pitted. Not super-pitted, but enough to do bad things to lead bullets. I cleaned it thoroughly, degreased it, and installed Dyna Bore-Coat. It then shot cast bullets pretty well! And the scope showed no leading....

I have a Lyman and was surprised that when a rifle's accuracy fell off, I thought it could be throat erosion. Before having the scope I thought throat erosion was about 1/2" long and the barrel was considered "shot out". After scoping that bore I was surprised that I have about 2.5" of "freebore"!! Hunting accuracy (1MOA) didn't fall off until then. Never do I prematurely worry about "shot out" barrels in my 264 WM or 6-284 again. When accuracy drops off, I'll look then - not before.

Exactly. Sometimes "ignorance is bliss". Like JB said, some bores may look like crap, yet still shoot very well. The OP should have known the bore was horribly copper fouled, by the way it was shooting, and you can generally see horrible copper fouling with the naked eye. What he did find out is his cleaning regiment was very faulty. Maybe he will learn to use better products down the road. There are guys that brag about not ever cleaning their rifles, but not using the proper cleaning agents or practices is just about as bad.

Also, guys that use a bore scope before firing a rifle, to determine it's bad, are clueless as to how the rifle is going to shoot as well. Some bores are way less than perfect, yet they shoot lights out.

Bob.
I have the very same gun.
A 1950s vintage 257 Roberts
Bore scoping it you can see that whoever carried it ,carried it muzzle up in the rain.
The last inch of the barrel is discolored/ pitted. Rest of the bore looked pretty good .
The lead in front of the chamber looks like new.
If you get the copper and the carbon out of your Bob.
I'll bet the thing will surprise you when you get it on the range.

Dave

JB
When I was a kid, cousin of mine had a pre 64 model 88 in 284 win.
I remember my dad, who used to hunt with him talking about how well the thing worked and how well my cousin shot it.
Many years later cousin passed away and I had no idea what happened to the rifle.
Cousin had a son. Son was career Air Force. He hasn't been around much and I haven't seen or talked to him in years. He lives in Korea and doesn't get home vary often.
Out of the blue he gets ahold of me and we have a family reunion of sorts. First question I asked him is if he got his dad's gun.
Yep. He's got the 284.
We have done the reunion thing several times now.
He brought me the model 88 to get it fixed up.
Thing has been sitting in a closet for decades.
Action is froze up. Cracked stock. The thing has been hard hunted and has lots of dings.
Turned into a restoration project.
I'll tell you one thing .
OMG
Handing a pre 64 Winchester model 88 in 284 to a gunsmith.
Is like giving a collector's edition Barbie to a pre teen girl.
Anyway got the action un stuck. Crack fixed. Spent quite a bit of time rubbing the stock out.
And the guys that carry Chrome Molly barrels muzzle up in the rain without taping them 😔.
There was a spot of out right rust in the bore and another in the chamber. Other wise the bore was like new.
20 trick moves later we got it out but the pitting remained.
The bore scope was very helpful sorting out the issues in the bore.
Gave the rifle back to my cousin about a year later.
In a new gun case with a bottle of clenzeoil.
.Happy now.

dave

Thanks Dave,
I bought this one after reading experiences like yours with the 722’s. I own another one in 300 Savage that shoots well with out much fuss at the bench at home with the cleaning products. That Savage performs similar to other rifles my son and I own. Generally pretty low maintenance required.
So this 722 is a learning curve for me. Have read a lot here about the various schools of thought on cleaning and accuracy. Will be adding a few products to the mix if this cleaned barrel likes shooting “Clean”.
Not feeling the need to own a bore scope, but it’s sure good to know someone who does when you want to see what’s it looking like inside.
Work is first, but as soon as I can get to the range I will report on how it shoots after the deep clean.

Dave,


Yep, have seen similar stuff several times. One was the "sporterized" SMLE .303 my uncle Larry paid $15 for in a hardware store in Bozeman, Montana in the 1960s--one of maybe two dozen in a barrel. The military stock had been cut down and refinished, but otherwise it was as-issued, with the standard aperture rear sight and "wing-protected" front blade. He hunted with it until giving it to me after he quit hunting in the mid-80s--among other animals taking a BIG mule deer buck.

It didn't group very well when I tried it, but the bore-scope showed the bore just inside the muzzle was VERY pitted. I cut that part off and recrowned, and it grouped a LOT tighter!

John put me on to Dyna Bore coat a few years ago to try on an old Winchester 38-55.Even with the naked eye, it looked like a gravel road in the bore. It went from keyholed bullets barely able to hit a 2'' 2 ' target at 50 yards to 3" groups at 100.

When Cop-Out wa available with the Foul out systems, It was amazing how much copper was deposited on the rod from a supposedly clean barrel.

Having read a whole lot of “clean my rifle” threads here I’ve acquired a good number of brushes,rods, jags, and bottles of stuff.
What I saw work on this barrel that my others don’t need to shoot was a drill motor, brass brush with a patch of JB, then a whole lot of patches with Bore Tech product. The work was more since time to soak was not an option.
The unanswered question is whether or not the 10 shots fired at the target after a multi session soak overnight with another product had “cleaned the barrel or not”. Can’t say because I don’t own a scope. But will definitely report back on what this gun shoots like and how dirty it is after the next trip to the range when work allows.

I bought an inexpensive model off Amazon simply out of curiosity. I haven’t looked every barrel I have but the several I did look at was the beginning of the rifling and one to help align a gas block. I’m avoiding going too far in that rabbit hole just to maintain my peace of mind.

MD is 100% correct. A bore scope doesn’t tell much about accuracy.
I inherited a Remington 788 in 22-250 about 3 years ago. When I initially received the rifle, I thoroughly cleaned the barrel with Wipe Out and inspected it afterwards with my Teslong bore scope. The inside of the barrel literally looks the moon’s surface. Pitting from stem to stern everywhere you can imagine. I recrowned the barrel to remove pitting at the muzzle.
This rifle is now my best, most consistent shooter, having shot 10 fast consecutive rounds in 7/8” group. It will consistantly shoot 4 to 5 shot groups under 1/2” with aaaaalmost anything I feed it. NONE of my custom barrel sporter rifles (with Krieger, Douglas, Hart, Lilia, or PacNor) barrels will do that consistantly,
no matter what I do with them.

Bob.
There are some good YouTube videos from Frank Green from Bartlien barrels.
He no longer uses bronze brushes and recommends against using them.
He doesn't like abrasive cleaners either.
With my bore scope I've seen lines on the top of the lands that could have only gotten there from a brush.
Keep in mind these are SS match barrels and are softer than CM.
For brushes these days I run the Isso blue nylon ones.
I keep a running track ... Constantly scoping.... My bench rest barrels .
No issues that I can detect ...
At least so far.


dave

I just stumbled on to a beautiful 1976 vintage Interarms MarkX in 30-06 at a local gun shop in the used rack. Via my Hawkeye, I doubt if it had been 'cleaned' with anything more than 3 In 1 oil. Wipe Out in for a 12 hour soak, push out more blue than was running out the muzzle....rinse and repeat over 3 days. After the blue stopped, I hit it with JB on a bronze brush for 30 good strokes.

Under all that mess are beautiful lands and grooves. It literally looks unfired. Some JB on a bore mop touched up the chamber nicely.

I'm a sucker for orphan guns....

Its 28 nosler. I expect short life from those types. Nothing new there IMHO.

Good info Dave
I’ll look into those videos. I own nylon brushes. That’s what I used on this barrel for its first cleaning attempt. The range results lead to the offer from a good friend to take a look with his testing scope. Then we went after it to get the crud out.
I am looking forward to figuring out what cleaning regiment this rifle requires.
As I said above I own others that clean and run decent groups with out much fuss.
I’m open to new tricks.

Or any other double based powder for that matter….

I bought a Winchester 88 in 308 Winchester In the late 1990's. I got a great price on it because of a ring in the barrel under the front sight. I had plans on having an inch cut off the barrel to get rid of the ring and getting it converted to 338/08 (before the 338 Fed came out). I shot it first....it is still a 308 Winchester and has taken many deer over the years. That rifle will shoot inch to inch and a quarter all day long. I would love to see what the bore looks like from the inside. Maybe someone I know will get a bore scope one day.

No reason to not have one these days.
https://teslong.com/collections/bor...26inch-rigid-rifle-borescope-new-release

dave

Not Apple friendly?