Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Trail Boss reduce velocity loads...

Hodgdon has data using their Trail Boss powder for reduced velocity loads.
It's an interesting chart that shows loads from .22-250 - .416Rem.


I plan on using the TB to work up a simple plinking load with 110gr hollow points in my .308. I'd like to do the same with the .223 and 40gr bullets and possibly my .204 and 32's.

But there's no data for the .204 or the .223...
Anyone worked with Trail Boss in the little cartridges?

https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/trail-boss-reduced-loads-2018-2.pdf

Go to Hodgdonreloading.com and put in 223 and trail boss. It'll show data for 55gr. Turns the 223 into a sleepy standard velocity 22LR.

Got it, Thanks!

They also have a formula for any cartridge. Fill the case and weigh the charge. 70% of this is your starting charge. 100% full with no compression is your maximum charge. Trail Boss is almost un-obtanium. There are other powders that will work as well or better for what you want. Unique is one of them and data readily available.
Good luck,
Rick

This. Trail Boss is no more so unless one has a goodly stash of it I wouldn't waste time fiddling with it only to find that replicating the ammo can't be done. Besides, like Rick points out there's a slew of powders better suited anyway.

TB powder has always represented a poor bang for the buck while delivering so-so accuracy. I left it long ago.

Hmmm - well apparently the doom and gloom of Trail Boss is true. I couldn't come up with it anywhere in town or online. So, I guess I'll be moving on.

I have Seafires Blue Dot data for the .223 and a half bottle of the stuff on hand, so I'll try that instead.

I really liked the notion that you couldn't double charge by accident with the TB - AND that there is manufacturer test data out there to use.

I ran Unique in my Ruger .338 mag and a small tuft of Dacron stuffing to hold the charge in place, with lead gas checked bullets. It was a lot of fun, but I was never comfortable with that tiny charge in that huge hull. I still have like 2#'s of Unique sitting on the shelf.

Trail Boss is superb in suppressed loads. I have a decent stash and will only use it suppressed. I look for it to go discontinued.

That be about right, use it in 308’s for suppressed loads

I ran across JB’s old article in Handloader on reduced loads from a few years back. Lots of good info and I book marked it.

I’ll try Blue Dot in the .223, but keep an eye out for TB to use in the .308.

Can you get safely to subsonic with Blue Dot in the 223?
I've used it to get Hornet velocities out of my 222 and 223. Just don't want to start lowering charges and have something go wonky with pressures

I can tell you this in my working with and testing Blue Dot loads in a lot of calibers.

Small rifle or small pistol mag primers, I've tested it down to 4 grains of powder in the 223. It was NOT position sensitive in the 223, so I used no fillers. This was with bullet weights from 35 grains to 55 grains... It was minute of sage rat out to 75 yards with no real problems. Can't find velocity numbers on the chronograph at the moment, on my computer. They were originally recorded on my old computer and may not have been loaded when its hard drive info was down loaded on my current computer.
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If you have a chronograph, a little testing will give you that information...

Sako, try this link my friend... it should give you a reference on what you might need.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...8346/seasonal-request-blue-dot-223-loads

If you have Steel, it works about as well as Blue Dot.

Jim, have you been able to locate any Steel powder?

I’ve not gotten the stellar results some have with TB in CF rifle loads, just okay. OTOH, it works well in handguns, .38/.357 and .45 Colt, with lead bullets. That’s probably where the rest of mine will go. Have about a jug and a half left.

Don’t try it in a Little Dandy! Also, don’t sneeze….

With any reduced load, check, double check, then go back and triple check each charged case in the loading block by peering in with a flashlight before seating bullets. It's a simple protocol I've followed for the last 50+ years and have never had a mishap. I do it for all cartridges, even centerfire rifle rounds that get caseful's of powder (mainly to check and make sure that I didn't skip one). Not doing that is one of the reasons I don't employ a progressive press. I'm quite willing to employ a little anal-ness and suffer a slower loading rate in the interest of utter safety.

Save yourself the trouble and don't bother with case fillers with reduced loads. They only provide minimally more efficiency/accuracy and present the very real risk of ringing a chamber if even slightly mis-applied. Position sensitivity is over-rated IMO unless one is striving for the nth degree of accuracy like in a benchrest match where a tenth of an inch or so means the difference between 1st and 3rd place.

Ok, I very carefully (as in charging and immediately loading the bullet) 5 rounds each of 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 grains of Blue Dot for the .223 and a 40 gr Speer soft point.

The goal is to have a next to nothing recoil and noise level round to let my grandkids learn to shoot it.
I’ll take it out along with the 7mm-08 and .308 and some full power test loads (H4350 & W748) and see how it goes.

Range day and that was the most fun I’ve had behind the trigger in a long time... wish I’d jumped on this band wagon earlier!



Tika T3X SL .223 1in8”. SWFA 6X MQ.
Loads are Blue Dot 5 shot strings. 6,7,8,9, and 10gr test loads. Target @ 50 yards.
Hole in bottom of black was 1st shot - made scope adjustment and the rest are in the bull (6gr).
Group at 5 o’clock is 7gr, 3 o’clock is 8gr, 7 o’clock is 9 gr and 9 o’clock is 10 gr.

I haven't looked for any, Cliff, I have a part of a pound I bought several years ago for shotgun shells.

Graf's and Midway has Steel powder now.

When I got some years ago...it was $17 a pound on sale

I lucked out on Steel Powder. Found 4 / four pound jugs of it..I had misplaced in the garage.
Price on them was like $68 each for the 4 pound jugs. Bought it back under Trump when it was on sale.

Like finding a winning lottery ticket, that is still good to cash in.

Looks like it’s shoots really well. I was playing with Vihtavouri N32C yesterday. Ended up at 4.9gr with a 75eld getting 1040fps, 5gr was 1065-1088 which went supersonic at my elevation. 88eld in a 7 twist might be fun!

You keep looking in your garage and there's no telling what sort of treasures you may find.

I need to just find the time to clean it out....

Last week I was looking in there, and finally found out where the Queen Mary ocean liner ended up...

also wasn't aware I had a B 29 in parts in there....getting rid of those two items, might give me some more room
to put other stuff....

Trail Boss isn't so slow. I'm getting 2050 fps with a 58 gr Vmax in 6 BR. Super nice load with a suppressor. Not as accurate as normal loads but plenty good for varminting at 100 yds or so.

yeah Maxwell my friend... but who varmint shoots at 100 yds or under?

but this time last year with a 223 and 55 grain bullets, fueled by 8.5 to 9.5 grains of Unique I was ringing steel pretty consistently at 300 and 400 yds on our local range. A scope with a Christmas Tree style reticle helps out an awfully lot tho.

Heresy! You will excommunicated from the Church for not using Blue Dot. Are you switching?

Next thing we'll hear is Ol' Seafire packing FFFg black powder into a .223 case.....

Tried that one also...required an ATF Funnel and a Rubber Mallet.... messy as hell...

Blue Dot and using Unique also? Does that make me a "switch hitter", hence the Excommunication from the Church?

Was D.B. Cooper camped out there?

Nah. He took one look and decamped for a government warehouse to hide out in where it wasn't so cluttered. You know the one, depicted at the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark".

It seems like you are evading the question. Curious minds need to know why you are using Unique? Is this merely a contrarian spirit or are there advantages?

I load 3gn TB under Speer 45gr FP in my 5.56 for 22LR level loads. Very accurate at squirrels-in-a-tree range which is what I generally use it for. Have used it in 308 as well, but like it in 5.56 loads better as it's accurate and pretty much a 22LR. Other relatively bulky, fast powders have worked well for me too, but maybe not -quite- as well as TB. Those are, Extra-lite, Red Dot and Unique. I think a lot of the fast flake powders will work reasonably well for ~1,000 fps load with lighter bullets.

Fantasticly tight groups! Which powder charge are you going forward with? Did you chronograph?

Oh just testing, "what if?" Unique did just fine... In fact last year at this time until like early June, I was ringing Steel at 300 and 400 yds with charges of 8.5 to 9.5 grains of Unique...Went thru 750 bullets in that time period and just a hair over a pound of Unique... Pretty economical and it will reach out there, more than one thinks.

someone asked me one day what was I shooting, after he packed up to head home. When I told him, he asked had I shot them further out... and I said Yeah, but I didn't know if I was hitting them as there was NO "TINK" if the bullet hit the plate.

So he got out his spotting scope and called out 450, 500, 550 and 600 yd targets which I took a couple of shots at each.

He came off the last shot and was laughing... Said I had hit them each time out to the 600 yd target. He had heard no "
Tink", but saw paint come off the white spray painted target when hit. So at 500, he took one side of his ear muffs off, and said he couldn't hear the "TINK" but say the paint fly off the painted target. So evidently, there was not as much energy left out there to make a noise you could hear 500 and 600 yds away, but the optics showed they were still hitting steel at those distances, knocking paint off of them.

That kind of practice makes hitting 200 yd sage rats with those loads, fairly easily.

Blue Dot is probably still hard to beat if you want decent velocity. How do you guys meter it?

Lee Dipper and a 505 beam scale.

Fred Flintstone Style Low Tech at my place.

Don't own or want a smart phone either.

I'm still running a 505. The complexity of this world is beginning to piss me off.

I hear you. Hundreds of dollars and high tech gadgetry just to meter powder charges and/or save a skinch of time....

Confirmed. Not safe to drop Blue Dot charges through a 22 cal tube. Dippers also are very inconsistent for me. I finally have a plan that seems to be working good. I place the Dillon powder measure die between the Redding Benchrest sizer and seater on my 550. When I size and seat a bullet, I also charge a 45 colt case which has no chance of bridging because of the large diameter. I then dump the 45 colt case into the 223 case with a funnel. If I would forget to dump the 45 colt case, the next charge would fill it to the top making it obvious. Blue Dot simply cannot be blindly trusted to drop through a 22 cal orfice without inspection.

Lymans Cast Bullet Manual is the best resource for reduced loads.

Maxwell:

A long time ago when I was developing these Blue Dot loads, I learned a quick way to avoid any double charges, and now I do all my hand loading with the Lee Dippers and the 505 Scale. I turn all cases upside down on my load box, once it has the primer put in each case.

Then I turn the case over one at a time, charge it and then seat a bullet before going onto the next case. If I get interrupted by the wife ( who like ALL women expect us to drop what we are doing and come to give them the assistance they need, as it always with just 'take a second'...) I dump the powder back into my container, and turn the case upside down again.... so when I finally return, I start on a fresh case, and NOT in the middle of where I was. To me it is the easiest way to not loose where you were at when left. We had a member who was a a minister, that was asking me about Blue Dot and I worked with him and answered his questions.... but he had something go wrong, and shows one should maintain a rhythm. He was loading a 257 Weatherby.... charged a case and was interrupted by his wife for help... then he returned and she returned wanting some more help... so when he returned he charged the case again, and was interrupted another time by her.... when he returned, he charged the case a third time ( he was wanting a light load), and then seated the bullet.

When he shot it at the range, it exploded, destroyed the rifle and the action, and even broke the Leupold 3 x 9 scope on top into pieces. Luckily his personal injury was minor and recoverable... but I am sure the explosion was a little nerve racking, to say the least.

If one can't have a discipline in handloading technique, or is inexperienced, should just pass it by... its not for the inexperienced reloader... they don't have the discipline and experience it requires to be done safely.

Sorry to see anyone have a BAD experience.Thanks for sharing a worst case scenario. Do not wish to see anyone have a experience like Seafire shares above.

Keep it safe folks or don't do it! Same message Seafire is sharing. Though, worth repeating enough to insure folks are taking safety to heart!

I do it differently but equally anally. (My apologies if I described this before in this thread, I'm not inclined to go back and re-read the whole thing to find out.) I set the sized and primed cases in a loading block - no matter if small pistol cases or large rifle cases - and charge each one in turn by feeding charges from a separate vessel (usually the measuring tube of a Belding&Mull measure or a separate dedicated case with the Harrell's) moving the funnel in turn from case to case never touching the cases being charged. No interruptions are tolerated - no TV, no music, no phone, no nothing. (No wife, so there's that advantage.) When all cases are charged I move up and down the rows peering in with a small flashlight beside my eye - even with 5 grains Bullseye in a Krag or '06 case, or 2 grains in a Hornet case, you can see and take note of the physical level of the powder. Then I come back through the rows in the opposite direction. When satisfied that nothing is amiss, I do it a third time. Sounds boring and overly anal but it only actually takes a minute of time.

Results of following that protocol for as long as I've been shooting reduced loads (sometimes dramatically reduced loads): zero mishaps in a half-century of doing it. Heck, I'm so used to doing it that way that I follow the exact same protocol when loading full charges in large rifle cases too, but that's mainly to ensure I didn't skip one than to guard against a double charge.

I've had guys come up and start talking to me while I'm loading at the shooting bench by breech seating lead bullets in single shot rifles, via a single cartridge case re-charged for each shot. When interrupted like that I dump the case out and start the routine over - sometimes powder comes out, sometimes not, but bottom line each time I stick that case in the chamber I know there's but one charge of powder in it.

Bottom line: when messing with reduced loads develop a protocol for ensuring you don't double or triple charge a cartridge case and become religious about it. Doesn't matter how you do it, what matters is that you do it.

I'm loading 12 gr of BD in a 223 so a double charge would catch your attention. However, lighter loads could be a serious problem and I would probably use Trail Boss instead. In case anyone is interested, a full case of Trail Boss gives 2000 fps with a Hornady 50 gr spsx in my 16" Ruger American Ranch and is sweet with a suppressor. But on with the story, my problem is bridging. I Originally used a Redding Benchrest powder measure to directly drop the charge into the case but you cannot visually monitor the process. I then changed to a Dillon measure and a 45 cal drop tube to prime a 45 Colt case and from there, use a funnel to charge the 223 case. Sizing, dropping the charge, and seating all take place with one stroke of the press so it's efficient but I have to transfer the powder from the Colt case to the 223 with a funnel so I can watch it. I nearly always have to shake the funnel to get it to drop into the 223 case.

Seafire, is Blue Dot Position sensitive with respect to velocity? With a half case of powder, do you need to raise the rifle vertical before you shoot?

Maxwell:

Blue Dot is not position sensitive. I regular shoot it in the 223s, with charges of 10 grains to 14.

I've even shot it downhill at say a 75 to 80 degree angle, at ground squirrels etc.

I don't use fillers with it, and have NEVER noticed ANY issues whatsoever. and that is experience of shooting probably 100K plus rounds out of my bolt action rifles. That is regardless of shooting it level or either uphill or down hill.

Mainly use small rifle primers, but in a pinch or time of shortages, that has included using small pistol and small pistol magnum primers with them.

This is really good to know because I really like this powder in the 223. The only load I use for 223 is 12 gr with Hornady 50 gr spsx at 2640 fps which is good to 300 yd. If I want more juice, I use a 6 BR. Even at the pedestrian speed of 2640, the 1-8" twist has the bullet wound out to it's max rpm and is explosive. What's not to like about this? I've noticed this same load in a 1-12" twist is not super explosive

Are they still making Trail Boss?

according what I've found on line, yes it has been discontinued, even if just temporarily.